garye@microsoft.UUCP (Gary ERICSON) (03/16/91)
Just to get off the "let's split the newsgroup" track, and to offer a non-HP48 discussion, I'm curious how people feel about the two contending approaches to the notebook-computer-with-stylus-interface that have arisen. The first one out is the one from Go Corp. which uses a new operating system that was specifically designed to exploit the stylus interface and provide software with a stylus-oriented platform to work from. I've heard comments that this is a real nice operating system even without the stylus features, and that the handwriting recognition is not bad. The other one coming down the road is Microsoft's Pen Windows that's been mentioned in the press. The idea here is to provide hooks in Windows that allows standard Windows (and even non-Windows) programs to get input from the stylus without having to change the code to be stylus-aware. Of course, you will be able to change your code to make better use of the stylus if you want. The claimed advantage of each is the disadvantage of the other and these are obvious: Go says that their system is better for good stylus operation because it is specifically designed for it, but Pen Windows is an attempt to twist Windows into something it wasn't designed to be. Microsoft says that their system is better because it immediately has tons of software that will work with it, while Go's system has none. Go says their system will be easy to write for, Microsoft says users can write stylus-specific code if they want that will be just as good as Go's. And so forth. Since Pen Windows will allow a user to write stylus-specific software (instead of using the generic stylus interface layer provided), software will eventually emerge that is more stylus-oriented than your basic Windows application. But, since Pen Windows isn't out yet, there is one comparison nobody can make yet, and that is between a program written specifically for Go's OS and one written specifically for Pen Windows. Which one will have the better stylus interaction (i.e., successfully using gestures and symbols, and navigating with the stylus)? And how will the handwriting recognition compare? So how do you feel about this? A lot of us have thought about having a Dynabook-type notebook computer with stylus interface - which would you rather have: a system custom-built for the stylus but with sparse applications in a new environment, or lots of applications in a familiar environment (Windows) but each with possibly limited stylus functionality? Disclaimer: I'm not involved in Pen Windows development, and it's not my purpose to pass on any discussion to that group, nor have I been asked to do so. I'm just an innocent bystander who happens to work here and who's sincerely interested in what this audience thinks. Gary Ericson - Microsoft - Work Group Apps
folta@tove.cs.umd.edu (Wayne Folta) (03/16/91)
From what I have read, Pen Windows will not include any handwriting recognition software, forcing programmers to write their own. The article said that GO *does* provide handwriting recognition, so programmers can concentrate on program functionality. (The lowest-common-denominator principal of the Mac and NeXT.) Also, as far as I understand, Windows is a GUI bolted onto a basically non-GUI DOS, and now they are bolting a pen-based interface onto this? Sounds like a lot of kludging to me. Last, if Pen Windows comes out and is easy a transition as MS would have you believe, then a lot of people will be porting programs to it that were not designed with a notebook/pen in mind. Sort-of like text-based applications ported to Windows. GO programmers will start out with a notebook/pen culture and way of thinking that will make their software better and more elegant. (I am biased here, since I believe that Windows is a rip-off of the Mac, quickly knocked off (until 3.0 anyhow) to preempt the better Mac GUI. Sounds like Pen Windows is the same thing. Again, this is my bias, and we probably don't want to argue this point as it really doesn't bear on the technical question asked. But you did ask for our opinions :-)) -- Wayne Folta (folta@cs.umd.edu 128.8.128.8)
kamidon@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Keith Amidon) (03/19/91)
I am very interested in both the Microsoft and GO pen-based software.
My base of information on both of these is pretty small, consisting of
a BYTE article on PenPoint and a few news releases about the pen
adaptations for windows. However, I am going to give my opinions anyway 8^)
First of all, I will admit that Microsoft has a real advantage in having
a lot of software ready to go. With that statement, you probably figured
correctly that I will now explain why I like PenPoint better, and you're
right! As a student, I find the notebook metaphor around which the PenPoint
operating system's GUI is built to be absolutely superb. I have dreams of
being able to sit in class, writing notes on a thin portable LCD screen,
and then being able to go home and reorganize and append my own incites into
them. I can't imagine anything that could be less threatening to a
non-computer user (not that I am one, but anything that helps....). On the
other-hand, while windows certainly is many times better than DOS for the
new user, I think it is significantly more complicated to get started with
than the descriptions I have seen of PenPoint.
Finally, I would like to end this post with a request for more information.
Does anyone know what GO's policy on using the system is going to be, how
it was implemented (i.e. is it mainly C code and portable, or pretty wired
into the 80x86 line), and any other information. Is there a list of
companies which are planning on developing things for PenPoint.
Maybe I should dig up their address from byte........
Keith
----
kamidon@zip.eecs.umich.edu
-- bdahlen@zephyr.cair.du.edu (Robert L. Dahlen - U. of Denver USA=) (03/19/91)
In article <31553@mimsy.umd.edu> folta@tove.cs.umd.edu (Wayne Folta) writes: [stuff deleted] >Also, as far as I understand, Windows is a GUI bolted onto a basically >non-GUI DOS, and now they are bolting a pen-based interface onto this? >Sounds like a lot of kludging to me. [more stuff deleted] >(I am biased here, since I believe that Windows is a rip-off of the Mac, >quickly knocked off (until 3.0 anyhow) to preempt the better Mac GUI. Sounds >like Pen Windows is the same thing. Again, this is my bias, and we probably >don't want to argue this point as it really doesn't bear on the technical >question asked. But you did ask for our opinions :-)) Boy do I ever agree with these comments... -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert L. Dahlen - Director, Information Systems & Technology University of Denver - Denver, Colorado 80208 (303) 871-4385 INTERNET:bdahlen@du.edu BITNET:bdahlen@ducair
stoppani@rust.zso.dec.com (Pete Stoppani) (03/19/91)
In article <1991Mar18.190012.11311@zip.eecs.umich.edu>, kamidon@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Keith Amidon) writes: > [stuff deleted] > right! As a student, I find the notebook metaphor around which the PenPoint > operating system's GUI is built to be absolutely superb. I have dreams of > being able to sit in class, writing notes on a thin portable LCD screen, > and then being able to go home and reorganize and append my own incites into > them. I can't imagine anything that could be less threatening to a > [stuff deleted] I pretty much feel the same as Keith. The notebook metaphor is perfect for my needs. It seems like many of the basic applications (word processor, appointment scheduler, drawing programs, communications program, etc) can be seamlessly integrated into the notebook in a much more user-friendly manner than Windows. Small, pocket versions could easily replace day timers and electronic personal organizers (sharp wizard and casio boss) because of the ease of use, flexibility and handwriting recognition capabilities. As much as I would like to see GO's system become very popular (and inexpensive :-) ) I'm certain that Microsoft's Pen Windows will be the winner. Mainly because, as has been mentioned, there is literally a ton of software available for Windows based systems and because a lot of companies have latched onto the Windows bandwagon. It would be financially difficult for such companies to port software to something as different as GO's system. It seems like the only way for GO's system to become popular (software-wise) is if a lot of inovative and ambitious startups make some really good software for PenPoint. If computer history is any indication then Pen Windows will succeed even if the PenPoint is the superior product. In the past it has rarely been the case that the best computer products are the most popular. I won't mention any names to avoid a flame war but I'm sure you can all think of examples (they are probably staring you in the face right now!). Anyway, I hope GO's system makes it; after all, there is no reason we can't have three successfull personal computer systems (Apple, GO, Windows). Hmmm, I suppose I ought to include Unix :-) I wonder what will be Apple's contribution to the pen-based computer generation? -- | Pete Stoppani | stoppani@decwet.dec.com | | DECwest Engineering | decwrl!fungus.enet!stoppani | | Bellevue, WA | stoppani@fungus.zso.dec.com | | "The wise learn more from fools than fools learn from the wise." |
folta@tove.cs.umd.edu (Wayne Folta) (03/19/91)
>I wonder what will be Apple's contribution to the pen-based computer >generation? Of course, rumors abound concerning Apple's notebook effort. I think I read somewhere that Scully said something like, "We missed the laptop market, but we intend to hit the notebook market hard." I have read that this effort might include Sony hardware or a licensing of Mac OS to Sony. Actually, Apple has fired the first shot in its Mac-based pen effort. I read that some small company has come out with a Kanji pen pad, wherein a Japanese user can write on the pad in Kanji, and get text as if typing at the keyboard. I guess it is an ADB device, and looks to the Mac like a keyboard. Apple was evidently really pushing this thing hard in Japan. -- Wayne Folta (folta@cs.umd.edu 128.8.128.8)
akcs.briank@hpcvbbs.UUCP (Brian Korver) (03/21/91)
It seems to me a little early to discuss PenWindows. Seeing that Windows is not yet even a full mouse-based GUI (the Mac has been since the mid-80's). What I mean is, how much software currently running under Windows really takes full advantage of the GUI interface? In fact, because Windows is slow, many applications avoid using too much WYSIWYG. Without taking full advantage of GUI, a pen-based computer is impossible. Think about how often you type something under Windows that you would click on with the Mac (and the Mac is not the perfect system for a pen either because it relies on the keyboard too much for a keyboard-less computer). Whatever, putting a pen-based interface over Windows, over MS-DOS sounds too clunky (and slow) to me. I mean, it's a nice trick and Microsoft will probably take over the market due to sheer size, but it would be great if GO could actually become successful. -Brian Korver
akcs.falco@hpcvbbs.UUCP (Andrey Dolgachev) (03/21/91)
Andrew says that GO would be great for editing, but not for the original entry of text. Actually, it's the other way around. Thw whole point of GO is not that it is a standalone, all you have computer, but that you caould use everywhere. Even the smallest handhelds computers are not feasible to use in many times. Either you need a lap for the larger computers, or the smaller ones that you can use like a real notebook, don't have good keyboards. On the other hand, since the GO computer is extremely light, small and only requires a pen for entry, you can anywhere you would use a notepad. For example, I could take notes or do a checklist or something lie that while I'm standing up with no problem at all. That would be the original entry. Then, I would transfeer all the info to my real computer and eidt, change, publish, whatever. I think that the best use of the GO computer would be the above, using it like your notepad . The software could even be put on a really small computer. The article I read talked about GO software on a minature computer that you could put in your shirt pocket, just like a memo pad. The idea is that it gives you the simplicity of paper, with the advantages of a computer, plus instant transfer capabilities to a large computer. This is why I think that putting a Pen interface over a Windows interface over a DOS interface is ridiculous. In addition to being really slow, there's not as much of a point. I think Apple has the right idea, becasue they would probablyu be making the real small computers, which are the real notepad style computers. There is no point in putting a pen interface on a IBM PS/2 except to make it easier to use. And the IBM can't be made easy to use, while the MAc can't really be made much more easier to use. Well, the last sentece is probably not completely true, but the point is that GO will revolutionize and get rid of notepads, memo pads, etc. w/o having that much of an effect on the large computers, like the desktop variety. ---Falco Personally, I want a GO! Except..How can you play Tetris with a pen?
lnk10562@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Louis Koziarz) (03/21/91)
>Personally, I want a GO! Except..How can you play Tetris with a pen?
How about using the pen to nudge/rotate the piece while it's falling, you can
also drag the piece down to the pile instead of letting it fall at it's
own pace. Seems easy enough to learn...I dunno it just came to mind...
--
Louis Koziarz University of Illinois Urbana/Champaign *
koziarz@uiuc.edu * *
"Yes, being an adult is a drag, but the * * *
orgasms are teriffic." - Matt Groening * * * *warren@jessica.stanford.edu (Mark Warren) (03/27/91)
>Personally, I want a GO! Except..How can you play Tetris with a pen?
Plug in the keyboard.
I'd like to see GO! win. It is 32-bit clean, supports lightweight threads,
is based on an object oriented model, extensible (you can replace any
class with your own class), and has a better user interface than
Windows (or the Mac for that matter!). Furthermore, GO is pushing the
open standards idea.
After watching a GO demo and futzing with a protype for a bit
afterwards, I am convinced that GO is the computer of the future.
Mark
--
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