[comp.sys.handhelds] rechargeables in palmtops?

dimitrov@lab.ultra.nyu.edu (Isaac Dimitrovsky) (04/27/91)

[]
My portfolio says alkaline batteries are recommended.
Does anyone know if using Nicad rechargeables will actually
cause problems, or if it just results in shorter times
between battery replacement.

Isaac Dimitrovsky

henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) (04/28/91)

In article <1991Apr27.161015.19757@cmcl2.nyu.edu> dimitrov@lab.ultra.nyu.edu (Isaac Dimitrovsky) writes:
>My portfolio says alkaline batteries are recommended.
>Does anyone know if using Nicad rechargeables will actually
>cause problems, or if it just results in shorter times
>between battery replacement.

You will have to recharge the nicads much more often than you will have to
replace the alkalines, unless you are using your machine *a lot*.  Nicads
discharge themselves; they won't stay charged for more than a couple of
weeks, typically.  They really make sense only for high-power devices
that would otherwise eat batteries like crazy.  Most handhelds nowadays 
are sufficiently light on power that Nicads aren't worth it.

I don't immediately see any problem they would cause, however.  They do
have somewhat lower output voltage than *fresh* ordinary batteries, but
battery-powered hardware has to be able to run on nearly-dead batteries,
and that means being able to cope with lower voltages.
-- 
And the bean-counter replied,           | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
"beans are more important".             |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry

ruhtra@turing.toronto.edu (Arthur Tateishi) (04/28/91)

In article <1991Apr28.012501.28554@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <1991Apr27.161015.19757@cmcl2.nyu.edu> dimitrov@lab.ultra.nyu.edu (Isaac Dimitrovsky) writes:
>>My portfolio says alkaline batteries are recommended.
>>Does anyone know if using Nicad rechargeables will actually
>>cause problems, or if it just results in shorter times
>>between battery replacement.
>
>I don't immediately see any problem they would cause, however.  They do

The real problem with NiCd's is their power curve. Normal batteries follow
a long steady line from 1.5V down. Nicads start at 1.2V, drop quickly to
a level slightly lower and then suffer a very slow decline to ~1V or so.
After that it just sort of drops away to nothing. Suddenly. This is really
bad when your unit's memory could get wiped out. A computer's battery level
alarm doesn't give a lot of warning and may not even trigger.

BTW Henry, welcome aboard. In an earlier post you spoke of those
right-shifted special characters. There is a nice keyboard template
overlay you can buy. They should have included it with the base machine.

-- 
Red Alert.
    -- Q, "Deja Q", stardate 43539.1
Arthur Tateishi                 g9ruhtra@zero.cdf.utoronto.edu

laird@think.com (Laird Popkin) (04/30/91)

In article <1991Apr28.012501.28554@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <1991Apr27.161015.19757@cmcl2.nyu.edu> dimitrov@lab.ultra.nyu.edu (Isaac Dimitrovsky) writes:
>>My portfolio says alkaline batteries are recommended.
>>Does anyone know if using Nicad rechargeables will actually
>>cause problems, or if it just results in shorter times
>>between battery replacement.
>
>You will have to recharge the nicads much more often than you will have to
>replace the alkalines, unless you are using your machine *a lot*.  Nicads
>discharge themselves; they won't stay charged for more than a couple of
>weeks, typically.  They really make sense only for high-power devices
>that would otherwise eat batteries like crazy.  Most handhelds nowadays 
>are sufficiently light on power that Nicads aren't worth it.
>
>I don't immediately see any problem they would cause, however.  They do
>have somewhat lower output voltage than *fresh* ordinary batteries, but
>battery-powered hardware has to be able to run on nearly-dead batteries,
>and that means being able to cope with lower voltages.

One significant difference between NiCad batteries and ordinary batteries
is the power curve as they go dead.  Ordinary batteries deliver a gradually
decreasing power level, whereas NiCad batteris deliver fairly level power
and then go dead suddenly.  What this means is that once you are warned
that power is low, you have very little time remaining on the NiCad battery
as compared to the regular battery.  Given that a Portfolio will run on
normal batteries for 2 months or so, I'd second Henry's advice not to
bother with NiCads.

- Laird Popkin

adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt) (04/30/91)

In article <1991Apr28.012501.28554@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
>In article <1991Apr27.161015.19757@cmcl2.nyu.edu> dimitrov@lab.ultra.nyu.edu (Isaac Dimitrovsky) writes:
>>My portfolio says alkaline batteries are recommended.
>>Does anyone know if using Nicad rechargeables will actually
>>cause problems, or if it just results in shorter times
>>between battery replacement.
>
>You will have to recharge the nicads much more often than you will have to
>replace the alkalines, unless you are using your machine *a lot*.  Nicads
>discharge themselves; they won't stay charged for more than a couple of
>weeks, typically.

I have to disagree with that estimate of two weeks.  My Psion Organiser runs
off a PP3 sized NiCad battery, and it does so for around four weeks without
a battery change.  The battery in question will have spent a similar period
charged but inactive, because my standard procedure is to carry a spare
charged battery in a little belt pouch.  That way, when the Organiser gives
the "Battery low" warning, I can change its battery at once.  I've been using
the same pair of batteries for a few years now, and haven't lost any data to
battery failure yet.

Of course, the duration of a battery will depend on its size; and perhaps
British batteries last longer than U.S. or Canadian ones.  :-)

As to the original question about using rechargeable batteries in a Portfolio:
I'd expect that rechargeable would work.  I doubt that the ability to use such
batteries is a unique feature of the Organiser!  As Henry said, though,
rechargeables need changing more often than alkalines, so carry spares with
you.

 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

darrylo@hpnmdla.hp.com (Darryl Okahata) (05/02/91)

In comp.sys.handhelds, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:

> I don't immediately see any problem they would cause, however.  They do
> have somewhat lower output voltage than *fresh* ordinary batteries, but
> battery-powered hardware has to be able to run on nearly-dead batteries,
> and that means being able to cope with lower voltages.

     Nicads could cause serious problems for those people who have been
risking calculator damage by using a RAM card not designed for the HP
48SX (such as the Smith-Corona RAM cards, etc.).  As the nicad battery
voltages are lower, there's probably a bigger chance of the RAM card
shorting out the calculator (when the RAM card detects a low battery
condition, the RAM card clamps the address lines to *ground* -- which
will do nasty things to the calculator if the calculator has not already
detected a low battery condition and shut itself down before the RAM
card does).

     BTW, I'd like to second your welcome here, Harry.

     -- Darryl ("We know who you are." ;-) Okahata
	UUCP: {hplabs!, hpcea!, hpfcla!} hpnmd!darrylo
	Internet: darrylo%hpnmd@relay.hp.com

DISCLAIMER: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not
constitute the support, opinion or policy of Hewlett-Packard or of the
little green men that have been following him all day.

rzv30@cccvm.ccc.amdahl.com (Rene' A. Vega) (05/09/91)

I use rechargable batteries in my Portfolio. If I don't use it much, the 
batteries usually last a little over two weeks. If I use it a lot, They'll just 
make it a week. Other than the time I accidentally swapped in a pair of 
discharged batteries, I've not had problems.

Rene' A. Vega
Computer & Systems Architecture