matt@physics20.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern) (05/29/91)
A week or so ago, I send out a call for a straw poll on the best way to split comp.sys.handhelds. I asked people, in particular, whether they supported an hp48-only newsgroup, or a newsgroup on calculators in general. Well, here are the results of that straw poll. Fundamentally, I'm afraid it was more or less a failure. First of all, only 28 people responded to it. Second, as this table shows, there is nothing resembling a consensus. ----------------------------------------------------------- | Preferred solution: Number | | ------------------ ------ | | comp.sys.calculators 8 | | hp48-only group (e.g., comp.sys.hp48) 18 | | other (e.g., comp.sys.calculators.hp) 2 | ----------------------------------------------------------- (Some of the responses I got were a little unclear, or detailed. I shoved them into the Procrustean bed of this table as best I could.) A few people gave their reasons for their opinions. I don't see any reason to repeat them here; I've seen all of them posted on the net at one time or another, and if anyone wants to give further arguments for their opinions they can do it themselves. I also don't see any reason for me to repeat my own opinions: I've posted them enough times. Unfortunately, many of the people who responded said that if the CFV was for the proposal they didn't favor, they would vote against it. There seemed to be about the same number of intransigents on both sides. I would never have guessed that this newsgroup would be so controversial, but it is. The only solution, I think, is to use one the voting methods that have been devised for dealing with controversial newsgroups. Peter da Silva has already posted one article about such methods. -- Matthew Austern Just keep yelling until you attract a (415) 644-2618 crowd, then a constituency, a movement, a austern@lbl.bitnet faction, an army! If you don't have any matt@physics.berkeley.edu solutions, become a part of the problem!
taber@ultnix.enet.dec.com (Patrick St. Joseph Teahan Taber) (05/29/91)
In article <MATT.91May28112103@physics20.berkeley.edu>, matt@physics20.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern) writes: |>Well, here are the results of that straw poll. Fundamentally, I'm |>afraid it was more or less a failure. First of all, only 28 people |>responded to it. Second, as this table shows, there is nothing |>resembling a consensus. |> |>----------------------------------------------------------- |>| Preferred solution: Number | |>| ------------------ ------ | |>| comp.sys.calculators 8 | |>| hp48-only group (e.g., comp.sys.hp48) 18 | |>| other (e.g., comp.sys.calculators.hp) 2 | |>----------------------------------------------------------- |> I don't see comp.sys.palmtops represented here. I know I voted in favor of it. could you post a list of people who responded? -- >>>==>PStJTT Patrick St. Joseph Teahan Taber, KC1TD Give a man a solution and you're employed for life. Teach a man to find solutions and you're employed for a day.
matt@physics16.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern) (05/30/91)
In article <5027@ryn.mro4.dec.com> taber@ultnix.enet.dec.com (Patrick St. Joseph Teahan Taber) writes, referring to the straw poll results that I posted yesterday, > > I don't see comp.sys.palmtops represented here. I know I voted in favor > of it. could you post a list of people who responded? Ah. Perhaps I should have clarified the way I reported my results. I regard comp.sys.palmtops and the calculator/hp48 issue as orthogonal. The votes will have to be independent, in any case: a single vote cannot create both comp.sys.palmtops and comp.sys.calculators. I was just trying to resolve a very narrow question: should we send out a CFV for comp.sys.calculators, or one for comp.sys.calculators.hp48 (or whatever the name would be.) Whether or not we have a palmtops group doesn't matter affect that question terribly much. [And, I might add, I think that we should send out a CFV for comp.sys.palmtops regardless of what we do about the hp48.] In any case, all of the people who wanted to create comp.sys.calculators also wanted comp.sys.palmtops. So, if you like, you can just regard that heading in my table as an abbreviation for "comp.sys.calculators and comp.sys.palmtops." As for the list of respondants. I wasn't terribly careful about keeping track of who mailed me: as I said, this was not a vote, but just an informal straw poll so that we could see if there is a consensus. If I try hard, I suppose I could come up with a list of most of the folks who mailed me. In fact, Patrick, I never did receive any mail from you. (I was a trifle surprised at that, which is why I remember.) So, if you like, you can add one more person in the "comp.sys.calculators and comp.sys.palmtops" column. Not that it matters much. As I said in my original article, it just doesn't seem to me that there is a consensus. Tweaking the numbers a little bit in one direction or another won't change that fact. -- Matthew Austern Just keep yelling until you attract a (415) 644-2618 crowd, then a constituency, a movement, a austern@lbl.bitnet faction, an army! If you don't have any matt@physics.berkeley.edu solutions, become a part of the problem!
peter@taronga.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (05/30/91)
matt@physics16.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern) writes: > I regard comp.sys.palmtops and the calculator/hp48 issue as > orthogonal. The votes will have to be independent, in any case: a > single vote cannot create both comp.sys.palmtops and > comp.sys.calculators. Why not? You can run as many votes as you want on a single CFV. I posted a sample ballot a while back. -- Peter da Silva. `-_-' Taronga Park BBS +1 713 568 0480 2400/n/8/1 Taronga Park. 'U` "Have you hugged your wolf, today?"
matt@physics16.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern) (05/30/91)
In article <PON4MIK@taronga.hackercorp.com> peter@taronga.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > matt@physics16.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern) writes: > > I regard comp.sys.palmtops and the calculator/hp48 issue as > > orthogonal. The votes will have to be independent, in any case: a > > single vote cannot create both comp.sys.palmtops and > > comp.sys.calculators. > > Why not? You can run as many votes as you want on a single CFV. > > I posted a sample ballot a while back. Yes, and I think that something like your suggestion is probably the best way to do things. Actually, we aren't disagreeing here. I said that we needed more than one vote to create comp.sys.calculators and comp.sys.palmtops. Yes, we can do it with a single CFV, but it's still two votes. I still think that the question of whether to create comp.sys.palmtops is separate from the question of whether to create an hp48-only group, a calculator group, or both. -- Matthew Austern Just keep yelling until you attract a (415) 644-2618 crowd, then a constituency, a movement, a austern@lbl.bitnet faction, an army! If you don't have any matt@physics.berkeley.edu solutions, become a part of the problem!
taber@ultnix.enet.dec.com (Patrick St. Joseph Teahan Taber) (05/30/91)
In article <MATT.91May29114124@physics16.berkeley.edu>, matt@physics16.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern) writes: >Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory (Theoretical Physics Group) |>Lines: 46 |>Xref: ryn.mro4.dec.com comp.sys.handhelds:8953 news.groups:31515 |>In-Reply-To: taber@ultnix.enet.dec.com's message of 29 May 91 12: |>20:08 GMT |> |>In article <5027@ryn.mro4.dec.com> taber@ultnix.enet.dec.com (Patrick |>St. Joseph Teahan Taber) writes, referring to the straw poll results |>that I posted yesterday, |> |>> |>> I don't see comp.sys.palmtops represented here. I know I voted in |>favor |>> of it. could you post a list of people who responded? |> |>Ah. Perhaps I should have clarified the way I reported my results. |> |>I regard comp.sys.palmtops and the calculator/hp48 issue as |>orthogonal. The votes will have to be independent, in any case: a |>single vote cannot create both comp.sys.palmtops and |>comp.sys.calculators. |> [...] |> |>As for the list of respondants. I wasn't terribly careful about |>keeping track of who mailed me: as I said, this was not a vote, but |>just an informal straw poll so that we could see if there is a |>consensus. If I try hard, I suppose I could come up with a list of |>most of the folks who mailed me. Maybe I'm being naive -- I guess I expected a little more rigor from people who are interested in calculators... So we're back to not knowing if there is consensus around the .palmtops proposal. Which means that every known solution in the universe is going to get voted. I give up. I formally withdraw all opposition to anything. Let's just do the vote. -- >>>==>PStJTT Patrick St. Joseph Teahan Taber, KC1TD Give a man a solution and you're employed for life. Teach a man to find solutions and you're employed for a day.
mcgrant@elaine15.Stanford.EDU (Michael Grant) (05/31/91)
In article <5040@ryn.mro4.dec.com> taber@ultnix.enet.dec.com (Patrick St. Joseph Teahan Taber) writes: >Maybe I'm being naive -- I guess I expected a little more rigor from >people who are interested in calculators... > >So we're back to not knowing if there is consensus around the .palmtops >proposal. Which means that every known solution in the universe is >going to get voted. > >I give up. I formally withdraw all opposition to anything. Let's just >do the vote. I can't believe you can be so high and mighty about a damn newsgroup. It was just a STRAW POLL, not a formal ballot, for God's sake. Are you saying that you don't trust him? Just because he didn't get your vote doesn't mean the statistics are lying. Perhaps he didn't get someone's vote in disagreement with yours. Those of us in the .hp48 camp were finished arguing a long time ago, and this little poll just proves we're still here, just tired of wasting our breath on people who make this an important facet of their life. Yes, thank you to those that are putting all of the work into it. Let's just PLEASE put this thing to a vote before I explode! Couldn't keep my mouth shut. Mike
kaufman@eecs.nwu.edu (Michael L. Kaufman) (05/31/91)
In article <5040@ryn.mro4.dec.com> taber@ultnix.enet.dec.com (Patrick St. Joseph Teahan Taber) writes: >So we're back to not knowing if there is consensus around the .palmtops >proposal. There you go again, trying to pour gasoline on the fire. Since 18 people voted (informally) for the .hp48 proposal, you may sleep in confort with the knowledge that there is no .palmtops consensus. Or if this is not good enough for you, I formally (again) state that I do not support the .palmtops idea. There are just not enough messages/week to justify it. >I give up. I formally withdraw all opposition to anything. Let's just >do the vote. > Does this mean that you will vote for the .hp48 proposal? Or at least not vote against it? Michael -- Michael Kaufman | I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on kaufman | fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in @eecs.nwu.edu | the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be | lost in time - like tears in rain. Time to die. Roy Batty
taber@ultnix.enet.dec.com (Patrick St. Joseph Teahan Taber) (05/31/91)
In article <1991May30.201733.3757@eecs.nwu.edu>, kaufman@eecs.nwu.edu (Michael |>In article <5040@ryn.mro4.dec.com> taber@ultnix.enet.dec.com (Patrick St. Joseph Teahan Taber) writes: |>>So we're back to not knowing if there is consensus around the |>.palmtops |>>proposal. |> |>There you go again, trying to pour gasoline on the fire. Since 18 |>people voted |>(informally) for the .hp48 proposal, you may sleep in confort with the |>knowledge |>that there is no .palmtops consensus. |> |>Or if this is not good enough for you, I formally (again) state that I |>do not |>support the .palmtops idea. There are just not enough messages/week |>to |>justify it. |> Silly me. I guess I should have asked you in the first place. What was I thinking of? |>>I give up. I formally withdraw all opposition to anything. Let's just |>>do the vote. |>> |>Does this mean that you will vote for the .hp48 proposal? Or at least not |>vote against it? No. It means have your vote. Do whatever you want. I will vote my opinion if I vote at all. But it doesn't matter. Regardless of the outcome I can find the part that I'm interested in and to hell with the rest of it. -- >>>==>PStJTT Patrick St. Joseph Teahan Taber, KC1TD Give a man a solution and you're employed for life. Teach a man to find solutions and you're employed for a day.
mcgrant@elaine10.Stanford.EDU (Michael Grant) (06/01/91)
In article <5069@ryn.mro4.dec.com> taber@ultnix.enet.dec.com (Patrick St. Joseph Teahan Taber) writes: >No. It means have your vote. Do whatever you want. I will vote my >opinion if I vote at all. But it doesn't matter. Regardless of the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >outcome I can find the part that I'm interested in and to hell with the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >rest of it. Now if we can just convince everyone who hates the .hp48 proposal of this, as well as everyone who hates the .palmtops proposal, then we can save a hell of a lot of argument and get this discussion over with. There's enough screaming to justify two groups, that's clear. So let's just get on with it./ Mike