EBM%mit-xx@sri-unix.UUCP (06/14/83)
From: J. Eliot B. Moss <EBM@mit-xx> I agree with Charlie Strom. This single most important language for any person to know, programmer or not, is their native tongue (e.g., English). Written and verbal communication is a skill that can always be improved. Clear and accurate communication, whether to people or to computers, requires clear thinking. Poor language indicates a lack of attention to detail -- a potentially disastrous trait in a programmer. Enough said. Eliot -------
jim%rand-unix@sri-unix.UUCP (06/14/83)
I also agree with the sentiment. I'm guessing that this recent submission
on the subject was intended as a test, so here's my attempted solution:
I agree with Charlie Strom. This single most important language for
^^^^ wrong word (should be "The")
any person to know, programmer or not, is their native tongue (e.g.,
^^^^^ number (should be "his")
usage: should be "i.e." ^^^^
English). Written and verbal communication is a skill that can always
number (should be "are skills") ^^^^^^^^^^
be improved. Clear and accurate communication, whether to people
or to computers, requires clear thinking. Poor language indicates a
^^^^^^^^ number (should be "require")
lack of attention to detail -- a potentially disastrous trait in a
programmer. Enough said.
^^^^^^^^^^^ incomplete sentence, but common usage, so o.k.
Eliot
^^^^^ spelling (should be Elliot) (just kidding)
I didn't catch anything real in the last two sentences. What did I miss?
JimMEAD%usc-eclb@sri-unix.UUCP (06/14/83)
Thier aint' no "reel" anglish! -------
steve%brl-bmd@sri-unix.UUCP (06/14/83)
From: Stephen Wolff <steve@brl-bmd> I hope anyone optimistic about machine understanding of unrestricted English has been following this interchange.
MDP@SU-SCORE.ARPA (06/15/83)
From: Mike Peeler <MDP@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Ron,
I thought Jim's msg was just supposed to be funny. At
that, it was. I'm gonna save that one, myself.
Cheers,
Mike
-------joe@cvl.UUCP (06/15/83)
Ron, you failed to note that Jim's alleged correction
I agree with Charlie Strom. This single most important language for
any person to know, programmer or not, is their native tongue (e.g.,
usage: should be "i.e." ^^^^
English).
was wrong. At least, I hope he didn't really mean to suggest that the
native tongue of every person is English, rather than that English
is an example of the native tongue of a person.
"E.g." translates as "for example," "i.e." as "that is."
Now, shouldn't this discussion really be somewhere else? I realize
that you arpanauts don't see such enlightening "group remedial grammar
sessions" on net.nlang, or net.flame, or net.misc. But some of us have
seen a lot of it lately. Perhaps what we need is a multi-network-wide
decree to the effect that grammar and spelling may be corrected as
vehemently as desired BY MAIL ONLY, and no public acknowledgement of
such errors is to be allowed.adams@uiucdcs.UUCP (06/16/83)
#R:sri-arpa:-210600:uiucdcs:10400069:000:2328
uiucdcs!adams Jun 16 00:41:00 1983
I also agree with the sentiment. I believe, also, that Jim is wrong in three
of his assertions. I have numbered my concerns. Arguments follow.
***** uiucdcs:net.micro / sri-arpa!jim@rand-unix / 10:55 pm Jun 13, 1983
I also agree with the sentiment. I'm guessing that this recent submission
on the subject was intended as a test, so here's my attempted solution:
I agree with Charlie Strom. This single most important language for
^^^^ wrong word (should be "The")
any person to know, programmer or not, is their native tongue (e.g.,
^^^^^ number (should be "his")
(1) usage: should be "i.e." ^^^^
English). Written and verbal communication is a skill that can always
(2) number (should be "are skills") ^^^^^^^^^^
be improved. Clear and accurate communication, whether to people
or to computers, requires clear thinking. Poor language indicates a
(3) ^^^^^^^^ number (should be "require")
lack of attention to detail -- a potentially disastrous trait in a
programmer. Enough said.
^^^^^^^^^^^ incomplete sentence, but common usage, so o.k.
Eliot
^^^^^ spelling (should be Elliot) (just kidding)
I didn't catch anything real in the last two sentences. What did I miss?
Jim
----------
(1) e.g., exempli gratia, [L.], for the sake of example; for example.
i.e., id est, [L.], that is.
I believe the author here uses English for the sake of example.
Clearly there are "native tounges" other than English.
(2) The number of "communication" is singular. "Written" and "verbal" are
merely adjective modifying the subject. Therefore, "is" is of the correct
number.
(3) Again, "communication" is the subject. The subject is singular.
"Requires" is correct.
The source for my definitions is "Webster's New World Dictionary of the
American Language", College Edition.
Robert H. Adams
USENET: {pur-ee, ihnp4, parsec}!uiucdcs!adams
CSNET: adams.uiuc@Rand-Relay
CRL, Dept. of Computer Science
Room 222 DCL, 1304 W. Springfield
Urbana, IL 61801 USA
(217) 333-3536rael@inuxe.UUCP (06/16/83)
I haven't read the original article but if you are suggesting (as it appears to me you are) that the original article should have used "i.e.", you've just proved yourself wrong. Pardon me for any misspellings or non-sequitory statements, Spanish is my ative language. Dan Vanevic inuxe!rael
wombat@uicsl.UUCP (06/17/83)
#R:sri-arpa:-210600:uicsl:7000017:000:345 uicsl!wombat Jun 16 18:53:00 1983 Also, some people prefer to use the non-sexist 'their' for the sexist 'his.' They/them/their is currently my favorite replacement set for sexist pronouns (an argument that has only recently died out in net.women). Another thing is that people who use 'usage' instead of 'use' are being pompous and contributing to bureaucrat-ese. Wombat
adams@uiucdcs.UUCP (06/18/83)
#R:sri-arpa:-210600:uiucdcs:10400070:000:117
uiucdcs!adams Jun 18 02:50:00 1983
I noticed the typo in my article. I am not perfect.
Rob Adams {pur-ee,ihnp4,parsec}!uiucdcs!adams (217) 333 3536jlw@minn-ua.UUCP (06/18/83)
#R:sri-arpa:-210600:minn-ua:6500001:000:1526
minn-ua!jlw Jun 17 23:05:00 1983
***** minn-ua:net.micro / sri-arpa!UUCP / 10:55 pm Jun 13, 1983
.
.
.
any person to know, programmer or not, is their native tongue (e.g.,
^^^^^ number (should be "his")
usage: should be "i.e." ^^^^
English). Written and verbal communication is a skill that can always
number (should be "are skills") ^^^^^^^^^^
be improved. Clear and accurate communication, whether to people
or to computers, requires clear thinking. Poor language indicates a
^^^^^^^^ number (should be "require")
.
.
.
----------
Semantics. To wit:
Written communication and verbal communication are skills that
can always be improved.
BUT
Communication that is both written and verbal is a skill that
can always be improved.
Likewise:
Clear communication and accurate communication require clear
thinking.
BUT
Commumincation that is both clear and accurate requires clear
thinking.
In the original, I presume that the intent of the first instance is
of the plural form, and the second is singular.
The use of "their" is yet another attempt to solidify its position as
a genderless pronoun. Someday popular usage may render it correct.
Substituting "i.e." for "e.g." implies that if one is a programmer then
one's maternal tongue is English. Leaving "e.g." permits one's maternal
tongue to be French, Russian, Chinese, or whatever.
Yours in parlance,
Jeff Woolsey
University of Minnesota Computer Center
...ihnp4!stolaf!umn-cs!minn-ua!jlwron%brl-bmd@sri-unix.UUCP (06/20/83)
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-bmd>
Ah come on...half of your corrections are wrong (at least...)
----- Forwarded message # 1:
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Date: Monday, 13 Jun 1983 19:55-PDT
To: info-micro@brl
From: jim@rand-unix
Subject: Re: Spelling and usage
I also agree with the sentiment. I'm guessing that this recent submission
on the subject was intended as a test, so here's my attempted solution:
I agree with Charlie Strom. This single most important language for
^^^^ wrong word (should be "The")
any person to know, programmer or not, is their native tongue (e.g.,
^^^^^ number (should be "his")
usage: should be "i.e." ^^^^
**** This may not be bad grammer, but an author's attempt to make the
**** third person pronoun neuter.
English). Written and verbal communication is a skill that can always
number (should be "are skills") ^^^^^^^^^^
**** Wrong... The and conjoins two adjectives here, but communication
**** is still singular.
be improved. Clear and accurate communication, whether to people
or to computers, requires clear thinking. Poor language indicates a
^^^^^^^^ number (should be "require")
**** Wrong again...same reason as above
lack of attention to detail -- a potentially disastrous trait in a
programmer. Enough said.
^^^^^^^^^^^ incomplete sentence, but common usage, so o.k.
Eliot
^^^^^ spelling (should be Elliot) (just kidding)
I didn't catch anything real in the last two sentences. What did I miss?
Jim
----- End of forwarded messagesjim%rand-unix@sri-unix.UUCP (06/20/83)
Ron - I won't repeat the message yet again, but you used "grammer" instead of "grammar". Also, there is no third person neuter pronoun in "real" English (unless you accept the neo-antichauvinist school). Shall we declare a draw and get back to the computers? Jim
ron%brl-bmd@sri-unix.UUCP (06/20/83)
From: Ron Natalie <ron@brl-bmd> Just goes to show... People who live in grass houses, shouldn't stow thrones. -Ron