gazit@ganelon.usc.edu (Salit) (03/06/88)
I direct this debate to alt.flame. I think that Gene Smith fits here much better. First a description of the debate so far: If someone wants to skip it use the command "g #######". In article <3496@sphinx.uchicago.edu> jos1@sphinx.uchicago.edu.UUCP (craig michael joseph) writes: cj> How many full-page ads cj>did you take out in the paper protesting Israeli complicity in the savagery cj>of Sabra and Shatila? Or did you just turn and walk away? In article <7168@oberon.USC.EDU> gazit@ganelon.usc.edu (Hillel) writes: hg>A large anti-government public demonstration was held in Tel-Aviv as hg>a response to Sabra and Shatila events. There are estimates about hg>500,000 participates. hg> hg>Mr. Joseph claim about "just turn and walk away" is unjustified and unfair. In article <14409@oddjob.UChicago.EDU> vinson@oddjob.uchicago.edu (Michael Vinson) writes: mv>Is it 500,000 now? Interesting how this number seems to be a monotonically mv>increasing function of time. Two years ago we heard 400,000, and at the time mv>of the protest the number reported was 300,000. In article <7203@oberon.USC.EDU> gazit@ganelon.usc.edu (Hillel) writes: hg>The point I made is that Mr. Joseph's claim about "turn and walk away" is hg>not correct. No matter what your opinions are it is not a good idea to deny hg>well known facts. I'm not going to argue about the exact number of hg>participants. 10% of the population seems to me good enough. hg> hg>BTW It is interesting that Mr. Vinson and Israel's extreme right try to hg> to reduce the number of participants. Interesting partners. In article <14420@oddjob.UChicago.EDU> vinson@oddjob.uchicago.edu (Michael Vinson) writes: mv>I'm glad 10% seems good enough for you, but I repeat my question: Where mv>was this 10% of the population when Israel viciously bombed residential mv>areas, schools and hospitals in Beirut, Sidon and Tyre, or when Israel mv>levelled the homes of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in Southern mv>Lebanon? Why were they silent when Ain el-Hilweh was brutally bombed, mv>though it was known that there were many women and children there, suf- mv>fering horrible casualties? Or when it was reported that an estimated mv>84% of the war's 20,000 killed were civilians? Why did they wait until mv>Sabra and Shatila to protest? In terms of number of civilians killed, mv>Sabra and Shatila accounted for a small fraction of the destruction mv>wreaked on Lebanon as a result of Israel's "Peace for Galilee." In article <7249@oberon.USC.EDU> gazit@ganelon.usc.edu (Hillel) writes: hg>Have you ever heard the phrase "bombing North Vietnam to the stone age" ? hg>Can you tell us how much time passed from the beginning of the war till hg>the demonstrations started? And what percentage of the American population hg>participate? hg> hg>And by the way, have you ever heard the names Hiroshima and Nagassaki (sp?) ? hg>You know, that small revenge for Pearl Harbor. hg> hg>Maybe were you not so busy discussing my morals, you would have some extra hg>time to think a little bit about yours. In that point Vinson's train was super-glued to the track and the "white knight" gsmith came for the rescue. He did not bother himself to make and read the debate from the beginning. He preferred to write. In article <8803050531.AA00482@oreo> gsmith@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gene W. Smith) writes: gs> I participated in my first demonstration against the war in gs>1966. I don't know what percent of the population demonstrated gs>against the war; but it was unpopular with many more than just gs>the hard core demonstrators. In any event, it seems to me that gs>this is the wrong bit of American history with which to draw gs>comparisons. It is more apt to compare to the civil rights gs>demonstrations and "race riots" of the 60's than to Vietnam. .................................................................. hg>>And by the way, have you ever heard the names Hiroshima and hg>>Nagassaki (sp?) ? You know, that small revenge for Pearl Harbor. gs> gs> This is idiotic. WW II was total war, and Germany and Japan had gs>made the rules. Japan reaped what it had sown in Pearl Harbor and .................................................................. gs>A-bombs was debatable, it should be pointed out that it was only gs>*after* they were used that people began to see them as not just gs>another weapon, but as another kind of weapon, one which should gs>never, ever be used. hg>>Maybe were you not so busy discussing my morals, you would have hg>>some extra time to think a little bit about yours. gs> Japan (and Germany) had to be stopped. They asked for it, and gs>they got it. In article <7429@oberon.USC.EDU> gazit@ganelon.usc.edu (Hillel) writes: hg>Any way I think these comparisons are beside the point. The war hg>between Israel and the Palestinians is for better or worse a life and hg>death struggle and is NOT SIMILAR to the race riots. gs>> This is idiotic. WW II was total war, and Germany and Japan had gs>>made the rules. hg>And the war between Israel and the Arabs is a picnic? For hg>general education Israel lost 1% of the Jewish population in hg>the 1948 war. The US lost less than 0.05% of the population in WWII. hg>The US knew in advance that one bomb is enough to destroy a city. hg>After they saw the results in Hiroshima they decided to drop hg>(two days later) another one. Maybe they liked the results. hg>Both cities had no military significance and the 80,000 victims hg>per city (not counting the radiation victims) were mostly civilians. hg>I was talking about the atomic bomb which was used after Germany had hg>already surrendered and the Allies had overwhelming military advantage hg>in every category. They did not need the A bomb in order to win. ########################################################################### In article <8803060002.AA02723@ronzoni> ronzoni!gsmith (Gene Ward Smith) writes: gs> I plead guilty to shifting the context, but what is concerning gs>a lot of people right now is the West Bank and Gaza. Can someone "super-glue" gsmith to the subject? gs> Look, fella, *you* were the one who brought up the comparison gs>with America. I presume it is your mental limitations to which gs>you refer. Make sense or I may get out the flame thrower. And gs>the West Bank/Gaza rock-throwing is more like our race riots than gs>a "life and death struggle". Get real, schlemiel. As you can see, the style ("mental limitations", "schlemiel") becames stronger as the arguments becames weaker. >P.S.: When you have time check out Russian casualties in WW II. >A picnic compared to the Israeli-Arab wars? Sure, buster. My history teacher was an officer in the Red Army. I believe that he presented the subject well enough. He claimed that in WWII there was a treaty of neutrality between Russia and Japan. L.A. times report from 8-9-1945 says that "The declaration (of war h.g.) was not expected for another week... it was believed use of the atomic bomb might have hastened it". (I think that Stalin wanted a piece of the cake). Now let us see the logic of gsmith: Facts: 1) Russia suffered huge losses in the war against Germany. 2) Germany surrendered in 5-1945. 4) The A bomb was thrown in 8-6-45 on Hiroshima and in 8-8-45 on Nagassaki. 4) Russia had a treaty of neutrality with Japan until after the atomic bomb was used. Corollary (gsmith): The use of the atomic bomb by the US against Japan was justified by the Russian losses against Germany. >ucbvax!brahms!gsmith Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720 >Proud member of ECIS -- "An effete corps of impudent snobs" -- I division Hillel Gazit gazit%ganelon.usc.edu@oberon.usc.edu