dlawyer@balboa.eng.uci.edu (David Lawyer) (02/03/89)
I'm told that the (Soviet) ICC (International Computer Club) is currently making arrangements to obtain a news feed. So you may expect Russians (and other nationalities from the USSR) to be online in the near future. There are non-Soviet members of the ICC as well as Soviet members including both individuals and organizations. Organizations include Soviet banks, engineering colleges, etc. It has been alleged that it is against the law in the USSR for an ordinary citizen to own a computer printer. I am very sceptical as to the truth of this statement and perhaps when the Russians are on we can find out about this. If it is true, we should try to do something about it. I infer that many people on the net are not up to date on recent events and changes in the USSR and hopefully having them on the net will help. Note that there have recently been high level visits between military leaders of the USA and the USSR so in light of present conditions I don't think that many military nodes on the net will object. Just as there are a wide range of opinions, and misunderstandings in the USA concerning the USSR, the same is true for the USSR concerning the USA. There are even some Russian who think the USA is better than it actually is and conversely. There is going to be a big language problem since most Russians don't know English very well (if at all).
hess@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (Caleb Hess) (02/03/89)
In article <1405@orion.cf.uci.edu> dlawyer@balboa.eng.uci.edu (David Lawyer) writes: >.... There is going to be a big language >problem since most Russians don't know English very well (if at all). Or will the problem be that most North Americans don't know Russian very well (if at all)?
ijohnson@udenva.cair.du.edu (ILENE JOHNSON ) (02/04/89)
Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: U of Denver Keywords: Russians, ICC In article <1405@orion.cf.uci.edu> dlawyer@balboa.eng.uci.edu (David Lawyer) writes: >I'm told that the (Soviet) ICC (International Computer Club) is >currently making arrangements to obtain a news feed. So you may expect >Russians (and other nationalities from the USSR) to be online in the > >It has been alleged that it is against the law in the USSR for an >ordinary citizen to own a computer printer. I am very sceptical as to >the truth of this statement and perhaps when the Russians are on we can >find out about this. If it is true, we should try to do something I just returned from 7 months in the Soviet Union. It is ABSOLUTELY TRUE that private citiizens in the USSR are NOT ALLOWED to own a computer printer. The government in the Soviet Union wants to control the distribution of all printed matter. For this same reason, xerox machines are very very restricted. >about it. I infer that many people on the net are not up to date on >recent events and changes in the USSR and hopefully having them on the >net will help. I think I'm pretty up to date on the events in the USSR. I'm fluent in Russian and spoke to many many people. I travelled from Leningrad to Khabarovsk(thats near China). My biggest frustrastion in coming back to the states is that people here think there are more changes occuring than are actually happening. Most of it is ALL talk. This computer thing is a case in point. It is also, BTW much more difficult to get permission to have any kind of demonstration. This law was passed in October along with the computer restrictions. > > > There is going to be a big language >problem since most Russians don't know English very well (if at all). There probably won't be such a big language problem. MOst of computer people read English fairly well even if they have terrible speech. I was in the Soviet Union with a travelling computer exhibit and met many specialists who knew English well enough to read technical material and well enough to communicate on the net if necessary. Its true, their spoken English was terrible. BTW, there is much interest in the Soviet Union in AI. Ilene K. Johnson ijohnson@udenva
pawel@alberta.UUCP (Pawel Gburzynski) (02/05/89)
In article <1405@orion.cf.uci.edu>, dlawyer@balboa.eng.uci.edu (David Lawyer) writes: > I'm told that the (Soviet) ICC (International Computer Club) is > currently making arrangements to obtain a news feed. So you may expect > Russians (and other nationalities from the USSR) to be online in the > near future. There are non-Soviet members of the ICC as well as Soviet > .............. > It has been alleged that it is against the law in the USSR for an > ^^^^^^^ > ordinary citizen to own a computer printer. I am very sceptical as to > ^^^^^^^^^ > the truth of this statement and perhaps when the Russians are on we can > ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > find out about this. If it is true, we should try to do something > ^^^^^^^^ > about it. I infer that many people on the net are not up to date on > recent events and changes in the USSR and hopefully having them on the > net will help. > ............ What an interesting and simple idea! You will just ask them, they will respond, and everything will become clear. Where is Steve Goldfield with his objections about asking native people what is going on in their country? Now, let us assume that the Russians have made it to the net. Below is the procedure for sending a mail abroad: 1. You submit a written application that specifies the destination of your mail, the subject, and gives clear motivation why you really have to send it. 2. You bring a letter from your local Party Committee (or Komsomol) supporting your application. 3. You pass a written test of English. A special committee meets two times a month and after careful examination of the applications decides which of them meet the criteria of decency. If your application is accepted (which may be quite likely considering the wave of openness sweeping through the Eastern Block), you put your message on a special form which now goes to a qualified person officially responsible for polishing (oops, I'm a Pole) your English. We are not going to send abroad a mail containing spelling mistakes, are we? So as a byproduct of this operation, postings comming from the Soviet Union will be written in a good English. So just relax Dave. The quality of their English is going to impress you and you will certainly learn a lot about their problems with computer printers (or any other problems, for that matter). Pawel Gburzynski P.S.: I assure you that it actually IS illegal for a private person in the Soviet Union to own a computer printer, or a modem, or a photocopier, or a (unregistered) typewriter. What would you need a modem for, anyway?
les@chinet.chi.il.us (Leslie Mikesell) (02/05/89)
In article <11218@udenva.cair.du.edu> ijohnson@udenva.UUCP (Ilene K. Johnson) writes: >I just returned from 7 months in the Soviet Union. It is ABSOLUTELY TRUE >that private citiizens in the USSR are NOT ALLOWED to own a computer printer. >The government in the Soviet Union wants to control the distribution of >all printed matter. For this same reason, xerox machines are very very >restricted. An interesting note in Computer Reseller News (of all places) said that according to IBM research there were no countries that had 20 or more phones per 100 people that are not democracies. The USSR currently has 19 phones per 100 people (compared to Wash. D.C. where there are *more* phones than people). Perhaps some changes are coming soon... Les Mikesell
simon@hpstek.dec.com (Curiosier and curiosier...) (02/05/89)
From: balboa.eng.uci.edu!dlawyer 3-FEB-1989 09:09 >It has been alleged that it is against the law in the USSR for an >ordinary citizen to own a computer printer. I am very sceptical as to >the truth of this statement and perhaps when the Russians are on we can >find out about this. It is your right and a privilege (you choose) to be sceptical. I asked this question to my brother who lives in Moscow over the phone a few days ago and he confirmed. It is also illegal to own any copiers.
cals@cals01.NEWPORT.RI.US (Charles A. Sefranek) (02/07/89)
Oh RATS!! Does this mean that come 1 Apr Ivan@kremvax
won't be a JOKE anymore?? Some guys just ruin all the
fun.. [ :-) :-) ]
--
--
Charlie Sefranek cals@cals01.NEWPORT.RI.US
UUCP: {rayssd,xanth,lazlo,jclyde}!galaxia!cals01!cals
Alt.: c4s@rayssdb.ray.com {sun,decuac,gatech,necntc,ukma}!rayssd!rayssdb!c4srwojcik@bcsaic.UUCP (Rick Wojcik) (02/08/89)
Pawel Gburzynski writes: > Now, let us assume that the Russians have made it to the > net. Below is the procedure for sending a mail abroad: > 1. You submit a written application that specifies the destination of > your mail, the subject, and gives clear motivation why you really > have to send it. > 2. You bring a letter from your local Party Committee (or Komsomol) > supporting your application. > 3. You pass a written test of English. There have certainly been some interesting claims lately about what sending a message to Usenet will entail in the SU. Why do you assume all of this rigamarole, Pawel? Snail mail between the US and USSR isn't restricted in this way. What makes you think that email messages will involve so much red tape? (Excuse the pun :-) I expect that most Soviets on Usenet will be circumspect in what they say without having such restrictions. And I still think that we'll learn something more about the legality of owning printers from Soviet Usenet participants. Are the laws against private ownership of printers still enforced? Are there any plans to repeal them? Let's at least have a dialog. We can all have our own opinions about how candid Soviet respondents are to our questions. There is a great fear in some people that many naive Americans are going to get taken in by Soviet propaganda and disinformation. The problem is that you can't have freedom of speech if you start restricting it to protect people from falsehoods. That is what the Communist Party *says* it is doing, and look where it got them. I was once told by a Soviet citizen that a restricted press was better on the grounds that you learned the truth quicker by reading between the lines. She could not understand how we in the West could figure out what was going on from so many conflicting stories. My answer to her was that we were used to weighing the conflicts, just as she was used to reading between the lines. And she did ultimately admit that a restricted press was wrong. Finally, her country is beginning to accept that fact. Don't worry about Americans getting exposed to propaganda. Worry about them not having the chance to get exposed. -- Rick Wojcik csnet: rwojcik@atc.boeing.com uucp: uw-beaver!ssc-vax!bcsaic!rwojcik
pawel@alberta.UUCP (Pawel Gburzynski) (02/10/89)
In article <9981@bcsaic.UUCP>, rwojcik@bcsaic.UUCP (Rick Wojcik) writes: > Pawel Gburzynski writes: > > Now, let us assume that the Russians have made it to the > > net. Below is the procedure for sending a mail abroad: > > 1. You submit a written application that specifies the destination of > > your mail, the subject, and gives clear motivation why you really > > have to send it. > > 2. You bring a letter from your local Party Committee (or Komsomol) > > supporting your application. > > 3. You pass a written test of English. > > There have certainly been some interesting claims lately about what sending a > message to Usenet will entail in the SU. Why do you assume all of this > rigamarole, Pawel? Snail mail between the US and USSR isn't restricted in > this way. What makes you think that email messages will involve so much red > tape? (Excuse the pun :-) > ......... Perhaps I exaggerated a little bit, but I wanted to illustrate some problems with the Russians joining the net that people here may not be aware of. On the other hand, I am not sure whether I really did exaggerate. The scenario that I mentioned would be quite realistic a few years ago. Although I think that as far as the Soviet reality is concerned I am in a better position to judge than some other people on the net (I left Poland in December '84), I find it difficult to asses the influence of the so-called perestroika on the life of regular people. Thirty years in Poland (which has always been far more open than the Soviet Union) taught me scepticism. When you live there, it simply pays better to have a sceptical attitude towards all subsequent promises that you hear from the people running the country. You say that snail mail to/from the Soviet Union is not subjected to ridiculous restrictions. But isn't it? You should remember that many people there are obsessed with the vision of western spies conspiring to steal their precious industrial and military secrets. Even in Poland, at least until some time ago (I am not sure whether it has changed since I left the country), it was illegal to take abroad any maps. One of my friends was telling me a story about his visit to the Soviet Union a few years ago. He was with a (Polish) colleague and they were walking some peripheral streets of Moscow. There was a strange noise coming out of a window in one building. This building turned out to be a small factory. They stopped and tried to look into the window to see what was going on behind it. After a few minutes they were approached by a militia car, their passports were checked, they were briefly interrogated, and allowed to go. It turned out that a cognizant citizen noticed two suspicious foreigners and stopped a militia car and told them that he had spotted spies. People generally know that it is better to avoid writing about certain things in letters. Some time ago I decided to abandon this habit and start writing in plain text to my brother. It seems to work and perhaps the people that read my letters before they reach their proper destination have instructions to be more tolerant. However, I tell you frankly that if I had to send an e-mail from Poland to a western country (assuming it was possible), I would think twice before putting there any complaints of political nature. Therefore I find it difficult to believe that you will soon have an open political discussion on the net involving your Soviet friends talking explicitly about their problems. Reading between lines is difficult and requires years of practice. Forgive me if you find my remark offensive, but people here are not the best experts on that matter. Easy life has taught you optimism and you are generally inclined to believe in the "good news" that you hear from someone and disregard "the bad news". I think that it is a wonderful attitude, but it does not seem to work when you try to learn about the outside world. I have been reading this newsgroup for some time and I have been reluctant to actively join the discussion. What irritates me is that there is no way to argue with certain people: there is simply no common ground. Imagine that you move to Warsaw and subscribe to a hypothetical newsgroup where people discuss exotic sports. There is a discussion about baseball (which is known in Poland not better than the problems of Eastern-block democracy are known in North America). The problem being discussed is how many innings there are in a baseball game. Various people express different opinions, and one of them says: "Two years ago I was talking to my aunt who lives in the States. I didn't ask her explicitly, but from what she was saying, it seems that the number must be between 15 and 20." Another participant (his name is Stefan Zlotopolski) writes: "When this idiotic discussion is going to end? Every educated person knows that they don't play baseball in the States any longer. This is simply a communist propaganda aimed at stupidifying Americans in our eyes. Just use your brains! Who on Earth would play such an idiotic game in the 20'th century." After a while you start feeling pity for these poor guys and decide to enlighten them. So you simply post an article and say: "OK guys. I came from the States two months ago and I can tell you that..." You believe that your posting will dispel all doubts and the discussion will switch to a different topic. However, you observe something strange. Some people simply ignore your posting and continue their idiotic guessing game. Some other people disagree with you. For example, Stefan Zlotopolski writes: "Ha! Here we go again! One more of these American emigrants. Of course everybody understands that we shouldn't really pay attention to what this guy is trying to tell. Why did he come to this country in the first place? Besides, he left the USA two months ago and he still claims to remember these numbers! Isn't it strange? In such circumstances it would be quite natural to lose interest in any further contribution to the discussion. Anyway, I will retain my scepticism and I suggest that you retain your moderate optimism. I wouldn't mind being wrong. Pawel Gburzynski
DBH106@PSUVM.BITNET (02/10/89)
************************ FLAME PENDING ************************************
If anyone believes that the damn Russians can be trusted with this system,
we might as well oblige him and let them into NORAD, as well.
And as to exposure to Soviet propaganda, one only has to look at the
talk.politics.*** newsgroups. There are certainly enough Communists there to
supply the entire universe with their propaganda.
Finally, to all those who believe the Russians, and particularly their
government, have changed enough to be trusted with the use of this computer:
You do not deserve to be here either, Commie scum.
Why don't you turn off the computer
and turn yourself in to the FBI
for treason!!!!!
Daniel Harter
DBH106@PSUVM.BITNET
Defender of Democracy
Penn State Universityc188-au@laertes.uucp (Dave Bernard) (02/10/89)
Hello, the situation in the Soviet Union concerning printers is very in- teresting. First of all, I shall restrict my discussion of this topic to Moscow. In all other areas of the Soviet Union computer use is at the bare minimum. Only in scientific laboratories, hotels, the rare governmental institute, a few factories, "video arcades," and some schools are computers being used there. However, in Moscow, there is a growing number of people taking interest in personal computers. There is, of course, a law res- tricting unauthorized publications, and Xerox machines are, for all natives, hard to come by. The Ministry of Communications must give specific approval to each xerox machine in the USSR, and no person is allowed to own one personally. However, this law was made before computer printers were around in any number. Although there is a law which says that one may not publish without permission of the government, to my knowledge, there is no law which outlaws the owning printers. Obviously, personal printers aren't really made in the Soviet Un- ion (the East Germans do most of that), and aren't for sale in stores. Printer paper, ink, etc., also is extremely rare. How- ever, people do own personal printers in the Soviet Union, if they were given as presents, or attained on the black market. These people, obviously, do not seek permission, but don't con- sider themselves breaking the law. Also, foreign companies aren't restricted on the number/quality of printers that they bring in, although they are restricted when it comes to xerox machines. I think that it is the new Gorbachev regime that has turned a blind eye to the use of printers. If these printers were ever used to mass publish opposition literature, I think this would change. Many Muscovite employees of foreign companies or of scientific and other institutes use their employer's computer equipment. Thus, those with access to printers (even if they do not own them) is not infinitesimally small. Also, members of the ICC, etc. who would be using the Usenet would already have access to printers. The ICC has both govern- ment and foreign backing, and are well-supplied (by Soviet stan- dards) with computer and printer equipment. So, although the numbers are very few (less than about .001%) there are a significant number of people with printers. However, if the main concern is that people at the ICC will not be able to print out their messages, I think there is nothing to worry about. Also, I believe that Ilene Johnson (article 1495) is right in stating that most people who will be using this system will have a passable use of English. Just remember that when writing to them, to use simple English phrases. I would just like to ask for more information regarding the pro- posed Soviet links with the usenet. I know that it is extremely difficult to get anything like this done. If it was proposed to start this month, it will probably start in July. However, I don't know anything about this "link with Usenet." Please post more information. Thanks, Dave Bernard c188-au@bard.Berkeley.EDU
learn@igloo.Scum.COM (william vajk) (02/10/89)
In article <70779DBH106@PSUVM>, DBH106@PSUVM.BITNET writes: > *********************** FLAME PENDING ************************************ > If anyone believes that the damn Russians can be trusted with this system, > we might as well oblige him and let them into NORAD, as well. Just what does NORAD have to do with usenet ???? What does access to usenet have to do with trust ? This is an information medium, and a social setting. > And as to exposure to Soviet propaganda, one only has to look at the > talk.politics.*** newsgroups. There are certainly enough Communists there to > supply the entire universe with their propaganda. Ahhhh, those poor misguided souls, right ? They're not fit to be Americans, right ? Did you consider that what you've spewed here is hatred of people and propognda as well ? Did you consider for a second that someone with a chance to read usenet would find support for their own ideas of democracy and freedom here ? Or do you just label everyone in every country on some idiotic basis. Like all citizens of South Africa are oppressors, that's the ticket, while neglecting the fact that some of the oppressed are citizens too. Oh ? They're all scum till they emigrate ? Got news for ya, bub. Just to give you an example. During WW2, and uncle of mine managed to work his way westward before the Red Liberation Army freed his homeland. After things settled, he came to grips with his conscience. Although he was doing well with a new career (he was a civil engineer designing railroads) he decided that his country, right or wrong, needed him, and he couldn't do them any good where he was. His view, quite correctly, was that his nation consists of people, not a government. Yes, he returned.The people are permanent, all governments transitory. We've experienced quite a wide range in mentality in government, from the extreme conservative capitalist to the extreme socialist, and have as a nation fared pretty well in the long run, without revolution, and under a continuing umbrella. Other nations haven't always been as fortunate. I daresay that in your lifetime you'll see some rather socialist governments emerge here in the US, sooner or later to swing back to capitalist. Take a look at the programs begun by FDR sometime in that light. > Finally, to all those who believe the Russians, and particularly their > government, have changed enough to be trusted with the use of this computer: > You do not deserve to be here either, Commie scum. > Why don't you turn off the computer > and turn yourself in to the FBI > for treason!!!!! I'm hardly a communist in any sense, regardless of what Mr. Harter in his fit of religious pique wishes to believe. I'm a firm believer that information, short of materials which truly affect our national security, should be disseminated as far and as wide as possible. The person who diseminates info which impacts our defense is already subject to specific laws, so give it a break, huh ? And you're going to tell us that the scientific minds in the USSR are simply going to soak up all the info they glean from usenet and turn it against mankind ? How about helping feed some people and perhaps improving the quality of life. A few bits of information can surely help. And I have news for you too. You better have some viable definition of 'communist' in mind. Changes in the eastern block ? Sure there are. How would you feel if busses all over the US had an official new slogan painted on them which read "Lose the dogma, not Capitalism." Now what would that do to your views regarding what America is all about ? In fact, when I was in Budapest last year, the streetcars had a new motto, "Lose the dogma, not Socialism." These things have a way of spreading, you know. I suggest you lose some dogma. It's working real well for them, and it just might for you. What was more interesting though was the response I got from people when I asked about it. It was right in front of their faces, and they were so immune that not a single one of the people I talked to had even noticed, and I asked about 30 acquaintances. Makes me wonder about how many of the 'watchers' here have noticed the long term changes we've undergone in this country, in spite of the fact the changes are right in front of their faces. They missed the slogans, but certainly have no difficulty recognizing the latest import from the west, an income tax. They are quite aware of the changes. Too bad you've been missing them. > Daniel Harter > DBH106@PSUVM.BITNET > Defender of Democracy ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You and Joe Mc Carthy. > Penn State University Daniel, please write to your Democrat representatives in government. Ask them about the social programs they support, and what those programs do. Then tell me about how we have no socialistic tendencies in this country, the evils of socialism, and just how bad the premise is. No, the USSR is no haven of great political doings. They're just trying, as we are, and are finally coming around to joining the world instead of constantly fighting it. Might serve you well to follow their present instead of their past example. Hi there, FBI. Won't it be nice when you can reduce your workload a bit ? Always cut the cards. Keep a smile on your face and the lasergun cocked and out of sight. Easy to make and keep friends that way. Bill Vajk | A person of quality is never intimidated. learn@igloo |
oleg@gryphon.COM (Oleg Kiselev) (02/11/89)
In article <70779DBH106@PSUVM> DBH106@PSUVM.BITNET writes: >************************ FLAME PENDING ************************************ [16 lines of the funniset posting in this group for many, many months] >Daniel Harter >DBH106@PSUVM.BITNET >Defender of Democracy >Penn State University I am not sure Daniel Harter will ever make it as a flamer, but he is uproariously funny. We've been too serious around here... -- "No regrets, no apologies." -- Ronald Reagan Oleg Kiselev ARPA: lcc.oleg@seas.ucla.edu, oleg@gryphon.COM (213)337-5230 UUCP:...!ucla-cs!lcc!oleg
rwojcik@bcsaic.UUCP (Rick Wojcik) (02/14/89)
In article <443@cadomin.UUCP> pawel@alberta.UUCP (Pawel Gburzynski) writes: > You say that snail mail to/from the Soviet Union is not >subjected to ridiculous restrictions. But isn't it? You >should remember that many people there are obsessed with the >vision of western spies conspiring to steal their precious >industrial and military secrets. Even in Poland, at least Please. I didn't say that snail mail is unrestricted, only that it isn't monitored or restricted in anything like the way you thought email would be. For your information, there are plenty of people in this country that would impose similar restrictions from this end. When I was in high school in the 1960's, I subscribed to Pravda, Izvestiia, and Krokodil. I was learning Russian and thought that it might be an educational experience. It was. The CIA was secretly monitoring all mail to and from Communist countries in those days. My subscriptions were temporarily stopped, and I was queried as to whether I wished to receive "Communist propaganda." At that time, my adolescent mind relished the thought of being put on someone's list, and I replied in the affirmative. The CIA operation was disbanded shortly thereafter, but it is my understanding that the NSA still has as its mission the monitoring of international and domestic communications that might be considered a danger to state security. (In some minds, that is any and all communication with Communist countries.) >...I find it difficult to believe that you >will soon have an open political discussion on the net >involving your Soviet friends talking explicitly about their >problems. I don't want to prejudge anything, but you may well be right. If you are, then so what? What kind of damage is likely to occur? And won't the exposure from our side be something for the Soviets to fear? I doubt that the regime will be able to control matters easily once they get started. Meanwhile, there will be plenty of watchdogs on the net to make sure that disinformation and propaganda does not go unchallenged. > Reading between lines is difficult and requires years of >practice. Forgive me if you find my remark offensive, but >people here are not the best experts on that matter. Easy Your remark is not offensive. I politely respond "Hogwash!" :-) We get plenty of propaganda here--especially in the form of product advertising. We are very used to hearing evasive and silly responses from public officials. And there is considerable skepticism about Soviet intentions, even with glasnost and perestroika. Soviet propaganda has always struck me as rather unsubtle--easy to see through. It does more damage in a society where conflicting points of view don't have a fair chance to counter it. Such would not be the case on Usenet. >life has taught you optimism and you are generally inclined >to believe in the "good news" that you hear from someone and >disregard "the bad news". I think that it is a wonderful >attitude, but it does not seem to work when you try to learn >about the outside world. I'm an optimist? How do you know so much about me? I agree with many of your points. You haven't articulated very clearly what kind of damage you think will come from letting the Soviets onto Usenet. Please give me your pessimist's analysis. :-) (BTW, welcome to the West.) -- Rick Wojcik csnet: rwojcik@atc.boeing.com uucp: uw-beaver!ssc-vax!bcsaic!rwojcik