mfolivo@sactoh0.UUCP (Mark F. Newton) (12/25/89)
Hmm. Alot of traffic on comp.sys.atari.st screaming, pleading, apologizing, etc, about the posting of Usenet articles on GEnie. From what I have read, a majority of the posters disliked the idea very strongly, that Usenet messages appear on a pay service, that is, a one-way link- Usenet on GEnie, but nothing from GEnie to Usenet. I understand that someone in rec.arts.anime compiles messages (edited? unknown.) and uploads it to CompuServe's Japanimation forum's downloads section, as "Usenet Digests". Now, as I understand it, noone there has said anything about it. So the users in r.a.a. apparently does't mind that their messages have to be "paid for" and downloaded from CIS. When I was on CIS, I used to see the files, but due to the size of them (usually around 32k) I never dloaded them. (read: $$$) But when I found out there was a local public access to Usenet, I switched and use this system exclusively. Now the users in r.a.a. apparently feel that the availability of anime information should be passed around, and it is my impression that c.s.a.st users do not want Usenet appearing on any pay service. Oyasuminasai da-cha, Shinobu -- Sakura-mento, CA mmsac!sactoh0!mfolivo mfolivo@sactoh0 pacbell!sactoh0!mfolivo (they're worth a try...)
jimomura@lsuc.on.ca (Jim Omura) (12/25/89)
In article <2327@sactoh0.UUCP> mfolivo@sactoh0.UUCP (Mark F. Newton) writes: >Hmm. Alot of traffic on comp.sys.atari.st screaming, pleading, >apologizing, etc, about the posting of Usenet articles on GEnie. > >From what I have read, a majority of the posters disliked the idea >very strongly, that Usenet messages appear on a pay service, that >is, a one-way link- Usenet on GEnie, but nothing from GEnie to >Usenet. This is a long standing problem and we've been wrestling with it on BIX. If I can blow our horn a bit, at least on BIX we *care* about how people feel about moving messages from Usenet to BIX. I've shared messages from 'rec.arts.anime' with some specific people on BIX, but I've only made general postings of things on special occasions and usually with specific approval by authors. You people must realize that there are specific *commercial* Usenet nodes around, don't you? Actually, I've long felt that it was improper to post *anything* on the Net which was not FULLY PUBLIC DOMAIN. This has nothing to do with legality, but simply a recognition that the Net exists because the NODES PAY FOR IT. Since every node contributes effectively to everyone else on the Net, how can you justify stopping anyone on the net from making the fullest possible usage of anything that you post to it? If you've been following 'comp.os.os9' you'll know that *every* program I have posted to Usenet which was my own work over the years has been declared fully public domain. Nor do I restrict any other postings I make which are my own work (not that most people care about whether I declare my opinion messages as public domain or not :-). Despite this, we have specific permission on BIX to carry the 'risks' stuff, thanks to the Net moderator. Furthermore, we are acting as a network node for the Citadel network under the efforts of Jefferson Software. So that's my stand: 1. I have not been porting to BIX from Usenet en masse for the BIX public, 2. I do not feel people are right to complain about the practice of using these messages on the commercial systems. But this leaves me with a problem: If people are doing this on Compuserve and Genie, then BIX may be at a competitive disadvantge because I've been the "good guy". So maybe I should change my practice and start posting a digest of 'rec.arts.anime' on BIX? I don't know. How do you people feel about this? Cheers! -- Jim O. > >I understand that someone in rec.arts.anime compiles messages >(edited? unknown.) and uploads it to CompuServe's Japanimation >forum's downloads section, as "Usenet Digests". Now, as I >understand it, noone there has said anything about it. So the users >in r.a.a. apparently does't mind that their messages have to be >"paid for" and downloaded from CIS. > >When I was on CIS, I used to see the files, but due to the size of >them (usually around 32k) I never dloaded them. (read: $$$) But >when I found out there was a local public access to Usenet, I >switched and use this system exclusively. > >Now the users in r.a.a. apparently feel that the availability of >anime information should be passed around, and it is my impression >that c.s.a.st users do not want Usenet appearing on any pay >service. > >Oyasuminasai da-cha, >Shinobu > > >-- >Sakura-mento, CA > >mmsac!sactoh0!mfolivo mfolivo@sactoh0 >pacbell!sactoh0!mfolivo (they're worth a try...) -- Jim Omura, 2A King George's Drive, Toronto, (416) 652-3880 lsuc!jimomura Byte Information eXchange: jimomura
mikem@comspec.UUCP (Ragnarok) (12/26/89)
mfolivo@sactoh0.UUCP (Mark F. Newton) writes in article <2327@sactoh0.UUCP>: | Hmm. Alot of traffic on comp.sys.atari.st screaming, pleading, | apologizing, etc, about the posting of Usenet articles on GEnie. | | From what I have read, a majority of the posters disliked the idea | very strongly, that Usenet messages appear on a pay service, that | is, a one-way link- Usenet on GEnie, but nothing from GEnie to | Usenet. My own understanding of the whole matter (this from reading about it in the news. groups) was that David Small, of Gadgets by Small (which produces among other things a Mac emulator for the Atari ST) had implemented a Usenet-Genie link, one-way. That it was one-way irritated some users, but that Genie claimed to have a copyright on the articles once they had received them was the final straw. To put this in concrete terms, if my site received this message I'm replying to after Genie got their hands on it, I would be (by Genie's claim) breaking copyright law. Posting a public reply with attribution (such as this message is doing) from another message could also get me in trouble with the Genie copyright claim. Obviously, this was an absurd claim, but it was the official position that Genie was taking. Therefore, a few people mobilized to have Dave Small shut down that link, so that they could discuss out all the ramifications of the link first. | I understand that someone in rec.arts.anime compiles messages | (edited? unknown.) and uploads it to CompuServe's Japanimation | forum's downloads section, as "Usenet Digests". Now, as I | understand it, noone there has said anything about it. So the users | in r.a.a. apparently does't mind that their messages have to be | "paid for" and downloaded from CIS. I've seen this as well, but I'm not sure what to make of it. Compuserve is indeed a pay service, and technically they're charging people money on files part of which are culled from rec.arts.anime. However, they're not attempting to claim it as their own under copyright, as Genie was doing. People that download it are free to redistribute it, as far as I know. | When I was on CIS, I used to see the files, but due to the size of | them (usually around 32k) I never dloaded them. (read: $$$) But | when I found out there was a local public access to Usenet, I | switched and use this system exclusively. | | Now the users in r.a.a. apparently feel that the availability of | anime information should be passed around, and it is my impression | that c.s.a.st users do not want Usenet appearing on any pay | service. Yes, but don't forget, many people have to pay for their Usenet accounts, so that invalidates that opinion right away. I'm certain that it was the copyright issue that had people campaigning against the Usenet-Genie link. As I recall, they were talking about forcibly placing "copylefts" :-) in the UUCP batching software, which would render many articles useless for Genie's purposes... -- The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, | Ragnarok ----- mikem@comspec.UUCP Moves on: not all thy Piety nor thy Wit |---------------------------------- Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, | Path: uunet!(utgpu!moore,attcan! Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it. | telly)!becker!comspec!mikem
sharon@asylum.SF.CA.US (Sharon Fisher) (12/26/89)
In article <1989Dec25.105130.23070@lsuc.on.ca> jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes: > This is a long standing problem and we've been wrestling with >it on BIX. If I can blow our horn a bit, at least on BIX we *care* >about how people feel about moving messages from Usenet to BIX. I'm not sure that that's globally true. Somebody posts stuff from the NeXT newsgroups here to the NeXT forum on BIX, and when I asked if the person had asked permission, I was told no because 'it was public domain.' >I've shared messages from 'rec.arts.anime' with some specific people >on BIX, but I've only made general postings of things on special >occasions and usually with specific approval by authors. > But this leaves me with a problem: If people are doing this on >Compuserve and Genie, then BIX may be at a competitive disadvantge >because I've been the "good guy". So maybe I should change my practice >and start posting a digest of 'rec.arts.anime' on BIX? Sigh. Presumably you do what you do because you are not happy morally or ethically with the concept of posting stuff wholesale. So isn't it better to stick with your conscience?
turner@soleast.Solbourne.COM (James Turner) (12/27/89)
jimomura@lsuc.on.ca (Jim Omura) writes: >In article <2327@sactoh0.UUCP> mfolivo@sactoh0.UUCP (Mark F. Newton) writes: >>Hmm. Alot of traffic on comp.sys.atari.st screaming, pleading, >>apologizing, etc, about the posting of Usenet articles on GEnie. >> >>From what I have read, a majority of the posters disliked the idea >>very strongly, that Usenet messages appear on a pay service, that >>is, a one-way link- Usenet on GEnie, but nothing from GEnie to >>Usenet. > This is a long standing problem and we've been wrestling with >it on BIX. If I can blow our horn a bit, at least on BIX we *care* >about how people feel about moving messages from Usenet to BIX. >I've shared messages from 'rec.arts.anime' with some specific people >on BIX, but I've only made general postings of things on special >occasions and usually with specific approval by authors. You people >must realize that there are specific *commercial* Usenet nodes >around, don't you? Actually, I've long felt that it was improper to >post *anything* on the Net which was not FULLY PUBLIC DOMAIN. This >has nothing to do with legality, but simply a recognition that the >Net exists because the NODES PAY FOR IT. Since every node contributes >effectively to everyone else on the Net, how can you justify stopping >anyone on the net from making the fullest possible usage of anything >that you post to it? If you've been following 'comp.os.os9' you'll >know that *every* program I have posted to Usenet which was my own >work over the years has been declared fully public domain. Nor do >I restrict any other postings I make which are my own work (not that >most people care about whether I declare my opinion messages as >public domain or not :-). As Managing Sysop of the SF & Fantasy Roundtable on GEnie, I had to respond to the implied remarks above regarding GEnie. The SFRT has never carried any Usenet material that I did not explicitly clear with the author or moderator beforehand. I am very respectful of the personal rights of the Usenet authors. If and when a Usenet gateway to GEnie is available, the policies I apply to it will depend a great deal on how the gateway is technically implemented Quite frankly, I really don't NEED 1E6 new messages coming in over the net. I've already got more message traffic than I can handle just from the regular users. A lot of my users would like an EMAIL gateway, and I'd be all for that. > But this leaves me with a problem: If people are doing this on >Compuserve and Genie, then BIX may be at a competitive disadvantge >because I've been the "good guy". So maybe I should change my practice >and start posting a digest of 'rec.arts.anime' on BIX? I don't know. >How do you people feel about this? Do you really think you're going to get a consensus on this? You could ask "Should I go around killing babies?" on Usenet, and you'd get opinions on every side of the spectrum. Frankly, Usenet is it's own worst enemy, because it is almost impossible to reach consensus of any kind on non-binary decisions. If you want to port over the message traffic here, it's between you and the users here. For the moment, I've I consider it more effort than it's worth compared to the more interesting projects I'm working on. I MAY contact folks about individual articles of merit, but that's between me and the author, and the rest of the net has no say in the matter. James Turner Managing Sysop SF & Fantasy Roundtable GEmail: SF