mjl@ritcv.UUCP (06/10/83)
One of the reasons I've never seriously considered buying a home
computer is the abominable keyboards one finds on most micros. I'm not
talking about the mechanical characteristics; I don't expect superb
craftmanship when the entire system may cost under $600. What really
irks me is the inability to use the full ASCII character set.
It can't be that the cost of keyboard encoders, as most low end micros
do support special codes for such things as block graphics and cursor
movement. What I've never understood is the inability to use these for
the weird but indispensable characters we've all come to love (like ~,
`, {, }, and our old friend \).
If anyone has informed (or even uninformed) reasons for the lack of a
full code, please let me know.
Mike Lutz {seismo,allegra}!rochester!ritcv!mjlmel@houxm.UUCP (06/11/83)
It isn't just the "low end micros" that have braindamaged keyboards. I sit here pounding this out on a DEC Rainbow 100 keyboard that can't emit all the ASCII control characters (How do you configure a SCRIBBLE printer if your keyboard can't produce the GS and US needed to change pitch?). Not only does this monster (and it does take up a large fraction of the desk top) not do what it must to be useful, it does other things that hurt. It has a "<" key right where the SHIFT key should be, an auto-repeat key -- after 5 months of using it, I still often produce strings of "<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<"s instead of upper-case letters. Then try to delete them by holding down "^H", hah! That doesn't work, since DEC in their superior wisdom decreed that control keys (what few they provide) shouldn't auto-repeat. Have you ever used a screen editor where some of the controls (the un-control ones) repeat, and some don't? It is an exercise in frustration that no amount of living-with moderates. Then we have all the extra keys (more is better, right?) -- the CAPS-LOCK and COMPOSE-CHARACTER keys right there where you hit them by mistake all the time are easily disposed of -- literally - just rip them out and throw them away. But what do you do with ESC buryed up there 11th from the left (10th from the right) ? How do you move it down where it can be used? I would dearly love to replace this abortion with a VIC-20 (programmed to emit the proper ASCII codes at the proper places). Anybody know how ? Mel Haas , houxm!mel
RICK%mit-mc@sri-unix.UUCP (06/11/83)
From: Richard P. Wilkes <RICK@mit-mc>
Radio Shack recently introduced its Model IV computer.
According to one of the persons responsible for the DOS, Radio
Shack decided not to include a full ASCII keyboard because it
would have been "too confusing" for the end users. Actually,
I think that answer was given by one of the people responsible
for the design because he couldn't think of any legit reason.
I have had the "pleasure" of teaching several secretary type
how to use Unix. Most had no trouble. However, the one that
had a Model III without the full ASCII keyboard had more
problems. Seems she could never remember that <CLEAR> <SHIFT>
</> was |.
I doubt that the cost was a consideration here since they had
the keyboard, keyboard plate, and keycaps redesigned. They
even added a control key (replacing the <SHIFT> <DOWN-ARROW>
<x> combination to get ^x). They at least recognize that
there ARE control codes, but forgot about little things like
ESCAPE (shift-uparrow?) {}'s (try C when you have to use a
three key combination for the braces!), ~^|\...
That is one of the reasons I decided to forget the Model IV
and get a MAX80. -r4341mrz@houxn.UUCP (06/13/83)
My solution to the problem of the brain damaged keyboards is to purchase a computer which contains no integrated terminal function and then purchase a terminal to go with it. I'll admit that you could miss out on bit mapped graphics and all those other goodies that a memory mapped screen provides but since modst of the time I am either doing word processing or programming, I'd rather have the sane keyboard and display. Mike Zboray
res@ihuxn.UUCP (06/13/83)
Well, Radio Shack came close on their Model II. It has the full ASCII character set available from the keyboard with the lone exception of the "`" character. Now, three of the characters "~", "\", and "|" are not shown on the key caps and require both the shift and control keys to be simultaneously depressed to get them ... but they are there! Does anyone know what was done on the Models 12 and 16 which are supposed to be able to run Unix-inspired XENIX? Rich Strebendt ...!ihnp4!ihuxn!res
jgpo@iwu1c.UUCP (06/13/83)
Get yourself an Apple //e. It's got a really nice full ASCII keyboard. The best thing, for me at least, is the Apple keyboard is laid out just like my HP2621's board at work, so I can flit between work and home without experiencing the Now-Where-in-the-Hell-Did-They-Put-it-THIS-Time syndrome. Try bouncing between an HP and those Lear-Siegler abortions for a new definition of frustration.
jim@uw-beaver.UUCP (06/13/83)
The most braindamaged keyboard I ever ran across on a micro is the one
on the Radio Shaft TRS-80 model 1.
Not only is it missing {}\|~` and even [], you generate lower case
letters by holding down the shift key! Of course this doesn't bother
most people because the display won't do lower case anyway. The lower
case letters are in the ROM and can be brought out by adding a $1
memory chip.
The keyboard is also quite useless until you add a debouncing program.
Fortunately the whole mess is programmable. My guess is that it was
designed by hardware jocks who had never actually used a computer.guy@rlgvax.UUCP (06/14/83)
But memory-mapped screens DO make word processors and other screen editors
nicer:
1) They permit you to redraw the screen VERY quickly, which means you can
reformat paragraphs on the fly (what you see is what you get).
2) They generally require less CPU overhead than pushing characters through
a TTY driver.
Guy Harris
RLG Corporation
{seismo,mcnc,we13,brl-bmd,allegra}!rlgvax!guysch@linus.UUCP (Stephen C. Hemminger) (06/15/83)
Better yet, go do your nearest computer surplus dealer and pick and choose to find one you like. The only problem is it is likely to be ebcdic or require non standard voltages. No honestly, I really have to put a plug in here for the surplus market. You can find good keyboards for $15.
leichter@yale-com.UUCP (06/15/83)
Re: The new DEC keyboard It CAN generate all ASCII characters - but you have to know how. The "oddball" controls are generated by CTRL and a digit; the only one I know offhand is ESC = CTRL/3. (This sounds very odd but is, in fact, an ANSI standard of some sort, and once you know it is quite logical.) The lack of a convenient ESCAPE key is a pain; CTRL/3 may or may not be better than reaching across. The location of the compose key is driven by its relatively heavy use in many European languages. Unfortunately, it's relatively rarely used in English, and even less often used by programmers. (In general, the keyboard is optimized for people who type a lot of natural language - NOT necessarily English - fast, followed by "unsophisticated" users - a terrible term which should be read as "non-hackers". I believe the keyboard - system interface is, or will be, a public spec; the physical interface is actually RS232 electrically, RJ-11 (modular phone jack) mechanically. I would assume that other people will eventually supply key- boards optimized for other uses. -- Jerry decvax!yale-comix!leichter leichter@yale
4341mrz@houxn.UUCP (06/15/83)
Guy I have to agree with your points on the merits of memory mapped screens but when I use my uC I often use it with a host. Invariably, the host does not understand the cursor control of the uC with integrated display. I do not mean to say this occurs with all uC's, just within my range of experience. By separating the terminal and uC functions, I have control over the two components of my system. May be the solution to the brain damaged keyboards is for the manufactures to offer quality keyboards in the first place. As far as the screen cursor control is concerned, the terminal programs of the uC should emulate one of the popular termianls. Mike Zboray
bernie@watarts.UUCP (06/20/83)
I think the Apple II has to beat out the TRS-80 I for lousy keyboard design. The Apple keyboard simply doesn't have enough keys on it, and cannot even generate lowercase (at least the Model I keyboard was dual case, even if they did blow the sense of it). More importantly, the keyboard design bug on the TRS-80 can be overcome through software, while the Apple has to have hardware kludges to get it to work right (and even then, there aren't enough keys). I think the absolute undisputed winner for worst keyboard on a micro should go to Commodore, for their original PET. The winner for *best* keyboard design is a far more difficult choice. For completeness, the winner ought to be the IBM PC (it has every character in the ASCII set directly and easily accessible from the keyboard, and has lots of useful function keys and special purpose keys as well). However, the keyboard layout is less than intelligent (they misplaced the left-hand shift key). The feel is nice (at least, a lot of people seem to like it) and reliability us far better than you'd find on most micros. I understand the shift-key problem can be alleviated through software. --Bernie Roehl ...decvax!watmath!watarts!bernie
mat@hou5e.UUCP (06/24/83)
Regarding the statement that the Trash-80 was designed by hardware jocks who never used aw computer, but is (whew) programmable: Today in the lab, a Hardware designer told me that the reason that it looks like hardware designers always say ``well, they'll fix it in software'' is that thay do! ``We have more faith in you software folks than we have in ourselves!'' I think the statement speaks for itself! Of course, we were joking at the time about some bugs we were chasing ... Mark Terribile Duke of deNet
greep%su-dsn@sri-unix.UUCP (07/01/83)
It isn't just micros that don't know about all the Ascii characters. I took about 6 months of bugging IBM to get them to figure out how to add the missing characters to their ink-jet printer. It seems the things was designed by the office products division and had only the typewriter characters, although it was hooked up to a computer.