ins_ammm@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Mazen Moein Mokhtar) (07/10/88)
I just received a letter from TMP Systems describing TML Pascal II and
TML Source Code Library II. Since I am a registered user, I can get
the two packages for $50 and $30 resp. instead of $125 ans $70.
Does anyone know interesting information on how well TMLP II runs?
I was pleased with TMLP and wouldn't mind spending $50 for the upgrade,
which includes MPW v2.0.2 (That alone is worth the price of the upgrade.
How about the source code library II, is it very useful?
BTW TMLP II operates with MPW, compiles MacAPP (should I get this?)
creates assembly code,compiles 68020, 68881 and includes several extentions
such as bit manipulation and exit and cycle statements, it also
supports object Pascal.On the other hand, there is no Symbolic
debugger, and I wonder how well Apple's upcoming debugger will work
with it.
Please E-mail or post any suggestion.
Mamdouh Maherdtw@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Duane Williams) (07/11/88)
> I just received a letter from TMP Systems describing TML Pascal II and TML > Source Code Library II. > I was pleased with TMLP and wouldn't mind spending $50 for the upgrade, > which includes MPW v2.0.2 (That alone is worth the price of the upgrade. The previous version of TML Pascal claimed to support object programming, but, so far as I could tell, it didn't really work. It was buggy, and the compiler was documented as missing some features crucial for Apple Object Pascal compatibility; it was never upgraded. It seems that TML got interested in the Apple IIgs and effectively abandoned Mac TML Pascal users. Now, after a VERY long time, they come out with an "upgrade", but it looks like a very different thing. I wonder whether they will support this any better than the previous product. Is there any reason, apart from cost, to purchase TML Pascal, rather than to simply purchase MPW and MPW Pascal, products which we know are going to be well supported, products which we know will keep up with new Mac changes and which are certain to work with Apple's upcoming debugger? My guess is that TML will discover that there's not much of a market for a Pascal compiler that competes with Apple's Object Pascal compiler in the MPW environment. -- uucp: ...!seismo!cmucspt!me.ri.cmu.edu!dtw arpa: dtw@cs.cmu.edu
Mike_G_Newman@cup.portal.com (07/14/88)
> I just received a letter from TMP Systems describing TML Pascal II and TML > Source Code Library II. > I was pleased with TMLP and wouldn't mind spending $50 for the upgrade, > which includes MPW v2.0.2 (That alone is worth the price of the upgrade. The most recent isue of MacTutor had an interesting article on using the old version of TML Pascal's object programming abilities to implement non-standard menu handling. I'd be interested in hearing more comments about (or from) TML about this new product and its future as I too feel that the upgrade is worth the price if.... :-). Mike Newman, Saipan, Mariana Islands
gae@osupyr.mast.ohio-state.edu (Gerald Edgar) (07/14/88)
In article <7328@cup.portal.com> Mike_G_Newman@cup.portal.com writes: >> I just received a letter from TMP Systems describing TML Pascal II and TML >> Source Code Library II. >new product and its future as I too feel that the upgrade is worth the >price if.... :-). Hmm.. If you need MPW for some reason, even the $125 list price of TML Pascal II is below the APDA price. SO I guess this is the best way to get MPW ???? [Just throw out the compiler if you don't like it.] -- Gerald A. Edgar TS1871@OHSTVMA.bitnet Department of Mathematics gae@osupyr.mast.ohio-state.edu The Ohio State University gae@osupyr.UUCP Columbus, OH 43210 70715,1324 CompuServe
ins_ammm@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Mazen Moein Mokhtar) (07/17/88)
In article <670@osupyr.mast.ohio-state.edu> gae@osupyr.mast.ohio-state.edu.UUCP (Gerald Edgar) writes: >Hmm.. If you need MPW for some reason, even the $125 list price of TML Pascal >II is below the APDA price. SO I guess this is the best way to get MPW ???? >[Just throw out the compiler if you don't like it.] >-- > Gerald A. Edgar TS1871@OHSTVMA.bitnet > Department of Mathematics gae@osupyr.mast.ohio-state.edu > The Ohio State University gae@osupyr.UUCP > Columbus, OH 43210 70715,1324 CompuServe Actually, MPW from APDA comes with an assembler and many utilities. TML II probably (certainly ?) does not come with the assembler. So, getting MPW through TML is not like getting MPW from the APDA, but I found the following: (TML Systems) -- TML II + MPW : $125 ($60 if you're upgrading) (APDA) -- Assembler for MPW : $100 ------ Total $225 ($160 for the upgrade) (APDA) -- MPW + Assembler : $200 So you get TML Pascal II for $25 or if you're upgrading, you are given $40 to get TML II BTW, are there any known bugs in TML Pascal (I or II) such as pointer manipulation ? How about MPW ? I hope this helps ! Mamdouh Maher
nopuklic@ndsuvax.UUCP (Blayne Puklich) (11/28/88)
I don't know if this bothers anyone else, but it seems that for several months now the people at TML have been advertising their TML Pascal II compiler as being complete with a full implementation of MPW 2.0.2. Their advertized list price is $125. MPW 2.0.2 is available through APDA for $200. How do they do this? I've heard that the MPW shipped with TML Pascal II doesn't include everything, and I'm curious to find out what's missing. If not much is, I'll wonder again how they do it. (APDA lists the MPW Assembler at $100, which means that TML is charging $25 for their compiler if the MPW they ship isn't complete.) Maybe since MPW 3.0B1 has been made available APDA feels that they can give away MPW 2.0.2 for little or nothing. What happens when MPW 3.0 Final hits the market? Will TML offer an upgrade to 3.0 for one-half of what the rest of us will have paid? Or will their upgrade cost as much as ours? I guess it just makes me excited that someone can let TML give away a development package that most of us paid much more for. I realize that MPW 2.0.2 is worth nothing when 3.0 Final is released, but still this bothers me. Anyone else bothered by this? ||+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++|| || Blayne Puklich nopuklic@Plains.NoDak.EDU "I think I'm going || || NDSU Student ACM nopuklic@ndsuvax.BITNET bald..." || || Chairperson NU087763@NDSUVM1.BITNET -- Rush, from Caress || || North Dakota State University, Fargo, ND of Steel, 1975 || || || || "Everyone should have a Corvette, I think." || || || ||-------------------------------------------------------------------------||
bob@accuvax.nwu.edu (Bob Hablutzel) (11/28/88)
> I don't know if this bothers anyone else, but it seems that for several > months now the people at TML have been advertising their TML Pascal II > compiler as being complete with a full implementation of MPW 2.0.2. > Their advertized list price is $125. MPW 2.0.2 is available through > APDA for $200. How do they do this? > I've heard that the MPW shipped with TML Pascal II doesn't include > everything, and I'm curious to find out what's missing. If not much is, > I'll wonder again how they do it. (APDA lists the MPW Assembler at $100, > which means that TML is charging $25 for their compiler if the MPW they > ship isn't complete.) The MPW shipped with TML is complete MPW - but not the assembler. TML comes on four diskettes - one for TML, and three for MPW. I haven't noticed any difference between the MPW with TML and the MPW I got from Apple. Except, of course, the assembler. > Maybe since MPW 3.0B1 has been made available APDA feels that they can > give away MPW 2.0.2 for little or nothing. What happens when MPW 3.0 > Final hits the market? Will TML offer an upgrade to 3.0 for one-half > of what the rest of us will have paid? Or will their upgrade cost as > much as ours? From the TML documentation: "As you may already know, the Macintosh Programmer's Workshop software and documentation are licensed from Apple Computer, Inc., As Apple Computer releases future upgrades to its MPW software and documenation, TML Systems will, in turn, offer the same upgrade to you" (Quoted without permission). Bob Hablutzel BOB@NUACC.ACNS.NWU.EDU
levin@bbn.com (Joel B Levin) (11/28/88)
The MPW 2.0.2 bundled with TML Pascal II and other languages is
complete with one major exception: the assembler together with its
interface and macro definition files and example programs. (Note that
MPW 3 unbundles the assembler.) Everything else is there, including
all the tools and libraries, and the manual.
LSC makes its Fortran available with and without MPW. The difference
in retail price (as I recall the ad) was $95.
I attempted to buy TML P II without MPW, as I already have it, but no
go. On the other hand, I got the whole thing complete from
MacConnection for $82, which would be good for a Pascal in a much less
featured environment.
/JBL
UUCP: {backbone}!bbn!levin POTS: (617) 873-3463
INTERNET: levin@bbn.comzuhn@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU (Dave Zuhn) (11/29/88)
In article <32737@bbn.COM> levin@BBN.COM (Joel B Levin) writes: >I attempted to buy TML P II without MPW, as I already have it, but no >go. I have spoken with the people at TML and they take the position that you are paying for the compiler and get MPW for free. They are working on a V3.0 compiler for MPW 3.0, but that will not be available until apple releases MPW as final product. Language providers can get MPW licensed to release with product for a very reasonable cost it seems... as in the case of TML. The upgrade for TML pascal II to MPW 3.0 will be a reasonable cost (they weren't sure of exact figures when I spoke to them as Apple hadn't given them final numbers). I didn't ask them what all comes with the upgrade. But since I had purchased MPW C from APDA, I went whole hog on the 3.0 upgrade from them.... pascal, C, SADE, assembler, shell. $330 is a great price for all of that... since I was going to buy the assembler anyway.... then SADE costs $100... and then all the rest adds up to a bargain. David D Zuhn // Computer Science Systems Consultant // University of Minnesota zuhn@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu zuhn@umn-cs.UUCP ...rutgers!umn-cs!zuhn ------- Bacchus: A convenient deity invented by the ancients as an excuse for getting drunk.
mwilkins@muddcs.Claremont.EDU (Mark Wilkins) (11/29/88)
In article <1857@ndsuvax.UUCP> nopuklic@ndsuvax.UUCP (Blayne Puklich) writes: > >I don't know if this bothers anyone else, but it seems that for several >months now the people at TML have been advertising their TML Pascal II >compiler as being complete with a full implementation of MPW 2.0.2. >Their advertized list price is $125. MPW 2.0.2 is available through >APDA for $200. How do they do this? > One of the recent editions of "Apple Viewpoints," a newsletter for certified developers, described this practice. For a fixed fee (I think $100,) any publisher of MPW tools can ship a copy of the MPW Shell with their compiler. The assembler is not included. This benefits Apple by making it profitable to write MPW compatible compilers. This way, people can market their MPW compilers to non-APDA members. Because they just recently made this announcement, I should think that it is unlikely that they will cease to do this when the MPW 3.0 finally ships. -- Mark Wilkins
nopuklic@ndsuvax.UUCP (Blayne Puklich) (11/30/88)
In article <10245@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU> zuhn@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu (Dave Zuhn) writes: >In article <32737@bbn.COM> levin@BBN.COM (Joel B Levin) writes: >>I attempted to buy TML P II without MPW, as I already have it, but no >>go. > >I have spoken with the people at TML and they take the position that >you are paying for the compiler and get MPW for free. They are working >on a V3.0 compiler for MPW 3.0, but that will not be available until >apple releases MPW as final product. That they can say MPW is free with TML gets me even more excited. >Language providers can get MPW licensed to release with product for a >very reasonable cost it seems... as in the case of TML. The upgrade for >TML pascal II to MPW 3.0 will be a reasonable cost (they weren't sure of >exact figures when I spoke to them as Apple hadn't given them final numbers). >I didn't ask them what all comes with the upgrade. Apparently only MPW 3.0 Final and the TML upgrade comes with it, according to the APDAlog insert. This raises two points. The first is that if their upgrade will be at a reasonable cost, will the price they charge be fair to those of us who do not own TML Pascal II? That is, if I pay upwards of $200 to upgrade just MPW (which isn't apparently available as a separate upgrade from APDA), will those who own TML Pascal II get away with something like one-half or one-fourth of what I paid? The second point is that if TML can give away MPW with their compiler, why don't more of the MPW-tool compiler companies such as SemperSoft, with comparably priced compilers, do the same? I mean, SemperSoft charges $125 or so retail for their compiler, why not include MPW? I can see where there may be a problem here - APDA/Apple Licensing must not be charging TML enough for the MPW licensing. Otherwise maybe the others would be doing the same (I can even bet money they'd LOVE to do it). Charge little or nothing for the upgrade licensing and maybe they'll give that away, too, while I pay. I guess it still bothers me. Maybe I'm jumping up and down for nothing, but I feel like I just got severely ripped off. Hell, pretty soon it's going to be better for us to buy programming tools from everybody BUT Apple/APDA if this keeps up, and I can bet that they don't really want that to happen. Someone help me see that this is really no big deal, please... (Do NOT give me an economics lecture because I've heard enough of those during the past 5 years of college.) ||+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++|| || Blayne Puklich nopuklic@Plains.NoDak.EDU "I think I'm going || || NDSU Student ACM nopuklic@ndsuvax.BITNET bald..." || || Chairperson NU087763@NDSUVM1.BITNET -- Rush, from Caress || || North Dakota State University, Fargo, ND of Steel, 1975 || || || || "Everyone should have a Corvette, I think." || || || ||-------------------------------------------------------------------------|| #! rnews 1
drc@claris.com (Dennis Cohen) (12/01/88)
First of all, APDA doesn't set the pricing on MPW, Apple does. The only thing missing from the TML II MPW package is "the assembler stuff". All of the other tools are there. Apple licenses this MPW configuration to third party language developers for an annual fee to ship with their product(s). The fee is not prohibitive and the major portion of the costs involve disk duplication and the printing/production of the manuals. If you are to purchase the TML II package (about $90 from MacConnection) and the $100 assembler package from APDA, you will have the complete MPW release with a Pascal compiler for LESS money than Apple has APDA charging for just the basic MPW/Assembler package. Talk to Apple about why they set the prices the way they do, I'm not going to make any guesses along that line. Dennis Cohen Claris Corp. ------------ Disclaimer: Any opinions expressed above are _MINE_!
tmyers@orion.cf.uci.edu (Tracy Myers) (12/03/88)
In article <1867@ndsuvax.UUCP> nopuklic@ndsuvax.UUCP (Blayne Puklich) writes: > >That they can say MPW is free with TML gets me even more excited. > In June of this year I purchased MPW 2.0 and the C compiler for $350 from APDA with rumors already in the air about MPW 3.0. Needless to say I was quite surprised by the obscene 'upgrade' cost for the MPW 3.0 C package. When I bought 2.0 I considered the upgrade cost for users of 1.0 listed in APDAlog which amounts to less than $60. This seemed very reasonable, and I assumed they would continue this policy. In contrast the lab I work for purchased TML pascal back in the dark ages, never registered the product, and finally switched to another pascal system. When I heard about the TML Pascal II upgrade I called and discussed the situation with them on the phone. All I had to do to get the upgrade for our lab was to send in a first page of the manual. Because of the university's purchasing policy, I needed any receipts to be less than $50 each. TML shipped me Pascal II and the Source Code Library on separate receipts, and I had the product in less than two weeks from the day I mailed the request. If TML can liscense MPW from Apple and provide it to its customers at a reasonable price more power to them. So instead of being excited that TML can ship MPW 'free' with its product, we should get excited at Apple for charging us an arm and a leg for an upgrade to a piece of software for which we have already paid twice what any other Mac development system costs. I really like MPW, but I will find it very difficult to strech my already tight student budget to acommodate the 3.0 upgrade.
earleh@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Earle R. Horton) (12/03/88)
In article <1234@orion.cf.uci.edu> tmyers@orion.cf.uci.edu (Tracy Myers) writes: >In article <1867@ndsuvax.UUCP> nopuklic@ndsuvax.UUCP (Blayne Puklich) writes: >> >>That they can say MPW is free with TML gets me even more excited. >> ... >So instead of being excited that TML can ship MPW 'free' with its product, >we should get excited at Apple for charging us an arm and a leg for an upgrade >to a piece of software for which we have already paid twice what any other >Mac development system costs... Hmm, I wonder when TML, Manx, etc. will be able to provide MPW 3.0 to their customers, and how much THAT upgrade path will cost? Earle R. Horton. 23 Fletcher Circle, Hanover, NH 03755 (603) 643-4109 Graduate student.
shebanow@Apple.COM (Andrew Shebanow) (12/06/88)
The MPW 3.0b1 upgrade price is not excessively expensive: it includes 14 or 15 disks and about 3500 pages of documentation. It also includes an upgrade to MPW 3.0 final, which will give you an entirely new set of disks, manuals, and even binders. If you cannot afford the 3.0b1 upgrade, I recommend that you wait until January when the final version will be available. The upgrade price will drop signifigantly, and the software will be less buggy. As far as Apple's pricing for MPW goes, you need to understand two things: First, MPW is not a profit center for Apple. We provide it to developers because we want good tools to be available, not because it makes us a lot of money. The price you pay for MPW when you buy it from Apple helps to cover engineering costs as well as manufacturing costs, but I would be very surprised if the income from MPW sales even came close to covering the budget of the Development Systems Group (I haven't seen any figures though). Secondly, we have to price MPW higher than most other development systems, because we want to encourage 3rd parties to write these types of programs. Even if Apple could sell MPW for $150, we would be hurting companies that we want to help. Apple supplies companies like TML with a set of master disks and manuals. These companies do their own duplication, and what they charge to cover costs is their business. Just remember that these companies don't have to pay the engineers, writers, and managers who make MPW. Andrew Shebanow Disclaimer: these opinions are mine and not Apple's, etc, etc, etc.
mce@tc.fluke.COM (Brian McElhinney) (12/08/88)
In article <21723@apple.Apple.COM> shebanow@Apple.COM (Andrew Shebanow) writes: >Secondly, we have to price MPW higher than most other development systems, >because we want to encourage 3rd parties to write these types of programs. >Even if Apple could sell MPW for $150, we would be hurting companies that we >want to help. I can't resist: is that why the linker is so &%#@* slow?!? MPW might almost be useful if the linker were thrown out and rewritten. Any chance of that happening? Brian McElhinney mce@tc.fluke.com