jmunkki@kampi.hut.fi (Juri Munkki) (09/02/89)
All of you know that the Yes/No/Cancel dialog that appears when you try to close a changed document has been standardized in IM-IV. The right coordinates and appearance are on pages 10 and 11. I just typed those values with ResEdit because I couldn't find an application from where I could copy a dialog that exactly conforms to those guidelines. If anyone has ever seen an application with exactly correct values (and text), please send me mail so that I can compile a list of super-friendly applications. I'd like to know the name of the author and the application. Of course, I'll post the list in a few weeks. Please remember: _Everything_ has to match the description in IM-IV. You probably have to use ResEdit or derez to see if the coordinates are correct. If you can't find the DITL, the application is disqualified. _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._ | Juri Munkki jmunkki@hut.fi jmunkki@fingate.bitnet I Want Ne | | Helsinki University of Technology Computing Centre My Own XT | ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (09/08/89)
In article <24871@santra.UUCP> jmunkki@kampi.hut.fi (Juri Munkki) writes: >All of you know that the Yes/No/Cancel dialog that appears when you try to >close a changed document has been standardized in IM-IV. The right coordinates >and appearance are on pages 10 and 11. > >I just typed those values with ResEdit because I couldn't find an application >from where I could copy a dialog that exactly conforms to those guidelines. This is one of the few cases where I recommend *not* going along with the user interface standard. The dialog as specified contains a sentence fragment which is anything but clear to novice users. (And yes, this is something I have actually seen intelligent but non-computer-oriented people get confused by.) Generally, dialogs should always communicate in complete sentences wherever possible. Sentence fragments should be restricted to button titles and the occasional colonized (colonic?) field label. The Yes, No, and Cancel buttons should in fact be placed in the proper relative positions and assigned the standard meanings. But that's enough to provide consistency across interfaces. Not only *can* you not use the abysmal "Save changes to '^0'?", but IMHO you *should* not use it. It's a very serious thing you're asking and you need to make sure that you're clear. A perhaps too verbose form would be what I used in TOPS Terminal: "You have made changes to '^0', but you have not saved them. [Second box:] Do you want to save the changes that you have made?" This could be slightly abbreviated, but I think it's much clearer and so much safer than the "standard" on Inside Mac IV-10. -- Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com "As I was walking among the fires of Hell, delighted with the enjoyments of Genius; which to Angels look like torment and insanity. I collected some of their Proverbs..." - Blake, "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"
pepke@loligo (Eric Pepke) (09/08/89)
In article <8461@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >This is one of the few cases where I recommend *not* going along with >the user interface standard. The dialog as specified contains a >sentence fragment which is anything but clear to novice users. Agreed. Not only that, but it does word wrapping for all but the shortest file names, and file names too long to fit are not inconceivable. This would have been a perfect application for an alert box, complete with warning icon. Figure 27 in the UI Guidelines seems to indicate that somebody was aware of this, although the alert presented is poorly designed. Unfortunately, using a proper alert box at this time would be too confusing. Eric Pepke INTERNET: pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu Supercomputer Computations Research Institute MFENET: pepke@fsu Florida State University SPAN: scri::pepke Tallahassee, FL 32306-4052 BITNET: pepke@fsu Disclaimer: My employers seldom even LISTEN to my opinions. Meta-disclaimer: Any society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
oster@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu (David Phillip Oster) (09/09/89)
In addition to the other valuable comments on this topic, I'd like to point out that that Alert dates back to the MacPlus era, and that more recent documentation changed the recommendation, unfortunately I can't remember where I read it. Now, instead of buttons saying Yes/No/Cancel, the buttons should say: Save/Discard/Cancel. In addition, I find Apple's standard positions give buttons that are a few pixels too short to look their best, and also a few pixels too short for easy mousing.
jmunkki@kampi.hut.fi (Juri Munkki) (09/11/89)
In article <8461@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >This is one of the few cases where I recommend *not* going along with >the user interface standard. You're probably saying this just because you haven't done it yourself. :-) >The dialog as specified contains a >sentence fragment which is anything but clear to novice users. >The Yes, No, and Cancel buttons should in fact be placed in the proper >relative positions and assigned the standard meanings. I agree. So, has anyone seen an application that has the buttons at the correct coordinates? So far I've received only one report of a program that follows the guidelines and even that one was a non-commercial private program. _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._ | Juri Munkki jmunkki@hut.fi jmunkki@fingate.bitnet I Want Ne | | Helsinki University of Technology Computing Centre My Own XT | ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (09/12/89)
In article <25123@santra.UUCP> jmunkki@kampi.hut.fi (Juri Munkki) writes: >In article <8461@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >>This is one of the few cases where I recommend *not* going along with >>the user interface standard. > >You're probably saying this just because you haven't done it yourself. :-) Heh. Could be, but then I *chose* not to do it the standard way. Barking at the user is "not my bag" -- that's what bulletin boards are for. :^) >>The dialog as specified contains a >>sentence fragment which is anything but clear to novice users. > >>The Yes, No, and Cancel buttons should in fact be placed in the proper >>relative positions and assigned the standard meanings. > >I agree. So, has anyone seen an application that has the buttons at the >correct coordinates? So far I've received only one report of a program >that follows the guidelines and even that one was a non-commercial private >program. Not the correct coordinates per se; if you're going to use a complete sentence, the dialog box they give you doesn't have enough room. But sure, the button placement Yes No Cancel is not what you'd call rare. By the way, someone (David?) said that the IM-4 specification had been replaced by another, and alert box with "save, Discard, Cancel", but I can't find anywhere that's specified. The "Human Interface Guidelines" book from Addison-Wesley has essentially the same dialogs as IM-4, except that it says "save changes before closing/quitting?" with no file name. Actually, IM-4 says one thing in its picture (use the file name) and another in the text (use "closing" or "quitting"). This is the same chapter in "Human Interface Guidelines" that says "It's better to be polite than abrupt, even if it means lengthening the message". Then a few pages later it tells you to bark "Save changes before quitting?" at the user. I think the former instruction should be taken as canon, and the latter ignored. -- Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com "What's the ugliest part of your body? Some say your nose, some say your toes, But I think it's your mind." -- Frank Zappa
kk@mcnc.org (Krzysztof Kozminski) (09/12/89)
In article <8502@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >By the way, someone (David?) said that the IM-4 specification had been >replaced by another, and alert box with "save, Discard, Cancel", but I >can't find anywhere that's specified. The "Human Interface Guidelines" >book from Addison-Wesley has essentially the same dialogs as IM-4, >except that it says "save changes before closing/quitting?" with no >file name. Funny, I remember doing my alert boxes accordingly to the specs and they do say "save, discard, cancel". But I can't find these in the IM either. BTW, I find it useful to include one more button: 'save as', for those occasions whent quitting is done in panic and the user doesn't really want to overwrite an existing file but would like to save the results anyway. KK -- Kris Kozminski kk@mcnc.org "The party was a masquerade; the guests were all wearing their faces."
james@utastro.UUCP (James McCartney) (09/13/89)
In article <8502@hoptoad.uucp>, tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes: > In article <25123@santra.UUCP> jmunkki@kampi.hut.fi (Juri Munkki) writes: > >In article <8461@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: > >>This is one of the few cases where I recommend *not* going along with > >>the user interface standard. > > By the way, someone (David?) said that the IM-4 specification had been > replaced by another, and alert box with "save, Discard, Cancel", but I I vote for Save, Discard, Cancel because we all know users don't read manuals, and I know that they don't read dialog boxes either, they just punch buttons. The user usually hasn't read the question he is answering because he assumes he knows what he is being asked. In this case I think that the guideline recommending that menu commands be verbs also apply to buttons. --- James McCartney
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (09/13/89)
In article <1370@speedy.mcnc.org> kk@mcnc.org.UUCP (Krzysztof Kozminski) writes: >Funny, I remember doing my alert boxes accordingly to the specs and they >do say "save, discard, cancel". But I can't find these in the IM either. > >BTW, I find it useful to include one more button: 'save as', for those >occasions whent quitting is done in panic and the user doesn't really want >to overwrite an existing file but would like to save the results anyway. Um, a good idea, but again, what's really important in the standardization is that the buttons be in the proper relative positions. In familiar code people often navigate purely by the overall graphic layout. If you start moving the buttons around in this standard alert then you risk confusing the user. Still, I can't deny that your feature is a good one; I'm just wondering how to put it in without disrupting the dialog's appearance. Sigh -- yet another power/clarity tradeoff. -- Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com "The pride of the peacock is the glory of God. The lust of the goat is the bounty of God. The wrath of the lion is the wisdom of God. The nakedness of woman is the work of God." - Blake, "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"
kk@mcnc.org (Krzysztof Kozminski) (09/13/89)
In article <8508@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >In article <1370@speedy.mcnc.org> kk@mcnc.org.UUCP (Kris Kozminski) writes: >>BTW, I find it useful to include one more button: 'save as', for those >>occasions whent quitting is done in panic and the user doesn't really want >>to overwrite an existing file but would like to save the results anyway. > >Um, a good idea, but again, what's really important in the standardization >is that the buttons be in the proper relative positions (...) If you start >moving the buttons around in this standard alert then you risk confusing >the user. Still, I can't deny that your feature is a good one; I'm just >wondering how to put it in without disrupting the dialog's appearance. Easy: the recommended layout is: Many programs, however, use: Save/Yes Save/Yes Cancel Discard/No Discard/No Cancel Quite a number use: Save/Yes Discard/No Cancel in a single row, so the standard is not that standard anyway ... I've just checked 5 popular programs and found 4 different appearances of the supposedly standard alert. The 2 alerts that appeared the same showed up in different places on the screen, so perhaps they should not count as identical. This much for the standard. Anyway, I moved the 'Cancel' button a couple pixels down wrt the recommended layout and have this: Save Save as Discard Cancel KK -- Kris Kozminski kk@mcnc.org "The party was a masquerade; the guests were all wearing their faces."
jdm@boulder.Colorado.EDU (James D. Meiss) (09/13/89)
In article <1374@speedy.mcnc.org> kk@mcnc.org.UUCP (Krzysztof Kozminski) writes: > >Anyway, I moved the 'Cancel' button a couple pixels down wrt the recommended >layout and have this: > > Save Save as > > Discard Cancel > Of course the Save as command should really by Save as... because, like the menu, it will have to call the Std File box. Jim Meiss jdm@euclid.colordo.edu
peirce@claris.com (Michael Peirce) (09/14/89)
For what it's worth, MacApp uses - Save changes to "Untitled-1" before closing? [[ YES ]] <- means it's the default [ NO ] [ CANCEL ] Claris Corp. | Michael R. Peirce -------------+-------------------------------------- | 5201 Patrick Henry Drive MS-C4 | Box 58168 | Santa Clara, CA 95051-8168 | (408) 987-7319 | AppleLink: peirce1 | Internet: peirce@claris.com | uucp: {ames,decwrl,apple,sun}!claris!peirce
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (09/14/89)
In article <1370@speedy.mcnc.org> kk@mcnc.org.UUCP (Kris Kozminski) writes: >BTW, I find it useful to include one more button: 'save as', for those >occasions whent quitting is done in panic and the user doesn't really want >to overwrite an existing file but would like to save the results anyway. In article <8508@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >Um, a good idea, but again, what's really important in the standardization >is that the buttons be in the proper relative positions (...) If you start >moving the buttons around in this standard alert then you risk confusing >the user. Still, I can't deny that your feature is a good one; I'm just >wondering how to put it in without disrupting the dialog's appearance. In article <1374@speedy.mcnc.org> kk@mcnc.org.UUCP (Krzysztof Kozminski) writes: >Easy: the recommended layout is: Many programs, however, use: > > Save/Yes Save/Yes > Cancel > Discard/No Discard/No Cancel Not true. Check IM IV-10,11. The "No" and "Cancel" buttons are supposed to be in the same row, with the same top and bottom coordinates. What you have as "many programs use" is standard; what you have as "the recommended layout" is nonstandard. >Quite a number use: Save/Yes Discard/No Cancel in a single row, so the >standard is not that standard anyway ... I've just checked 5 popular >programs and found 4 different appearances of the supposedly standard >alert. The 2 alerts that appeared the same showed up in different >places on the screen, so perhaps they should not count as identical. >This much for the standard. Which is A Bad Thing. I don't buy this "verybody else does it" argument. >Anyway, I moved the 'Cancel' button a couple pixels down wrt the recommended >layout and have this: > > Save Save as > > Discard Cancel Which changes the appearance of the dialog! Suddenly you have a dialog which looks completely different from everyone else's. You haven't answered my objection at all. The user must stop and scratch her head. If there's some comprehension problem here, let me explain. The point is that this is a very important question; the answer, if wrong, will lead to major user frustration. When I look at a standard dialog with the prescribed Yes, No, and Cancel buttons in the correct positions, I know immediately which button to push. I don't have to worry about. Any deviation in the button positions forces me to stop and think "OK, is this what I want to do, or that, and why has this programmer got his head up his ass anyway?" and generally increases my anxiety level. -- Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com "Philosophy is the talk on a cereal box Religion is the smile on a dog" -- Edie Brickell, "What I Am"
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (09/16/89)
In article <10550@claris.com> peirce@claris.com (Michael Peirce) writes: >For what it's worth, MacApp uses - > >Save changes to "Untitled-1" before closing? Which is a sentence fragment. As the guidelines say, "it's better to be polite than abrupt, even if it means lengthening the message." Is there any way for a MacApp developer to override this awful behavior? -- Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com "Skip, witches! Hop, toads! Take your pleasure!" -- Aleister Crowley, THE BOOK OF LIES
lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (09/16/89)
>Which is a sentence fragment. As the guidelines say, "it's better to be >polite than abrupt, even if it means lengthening the message." Is there You can modify the standard MacApp rez input file, which is used in every application. MacApp uses a standard DITL for that dialog. -- Larry Rosenstein, Object Specialist Apple Computer, Inc. 20525 Mariani Ave, MS 46-B Cupertino, CA 95014 AppleLink:Rosenstein1 domain:lsr@Apple.COM UUCP:{sun,voder,nsc,decwrl}!apple!lsr