tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (02/11/90)
In article <1807@milton.acs.washington.edu> phaedrus@milton.acs.washington.edu (The Wanderer) writes: >In article <10059@hoptoad.uucp>, tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) points out the >problems with hierarchical menus going away if you deviate from the narrow >drag path from the main menu to the hierarchical one, and how there's no >obvious way to patch for this because it's all internal to MenuSelect. > >In article <2857@draken.nada.htk.se> d88-jwa@nada.kth.se (Jon W{tte) points >out that IM documents that there is a hierarchical-menu popup delay and drag >delay documented, but their locations are not. > > I've seen a CDEV that governs this exact thing (called MenuDrag, or >MenuSelect, or something like that). There is indeed a popup and a drag >delay for hierarchical menus; their values are stored in the PRAM (the >extended area, I believe, so you'd have to use the xPRAM INIT to make changes >stick on a Plus). I have no idea what the specific location is, however >(I'm at work and don't have my Mac or my IM manuals handy...) Check the >ftp sites for the CDEV, and check the IM documentation of the PRAM bytes for >the exact location. No, there's nothing about parameter RAM in Inside Mac volume V, and it also seems strange to me that Apple would put something in parameter RAM without giving users a way to set it from the Control Panel. However, this got me to thinking -- what if they're using the menu flash setting as the drag delay? So, I just tested it, and it appears this is the case. I can drag to a submenu at a leisurely speed with the menu flash set to 1, but I have to jerk my hand at setting 3; and 3 was my previous setting. This explains why I was having problems. It doesn't explain why the implementors thought there would be an inverse relationship between the number of times a user wants the menus to flash and the amount of drag delay a user wants, or why this feature is so well hidden that the panel of experts here couldn't figure it out until now. Just another mystery of the Mac.... -- Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com "Conversion, fastidious Goddess, loves blood better than brick, and feasts most subtly on the human will." - Virginia Woolf, "Mrs. Dalloway"
louis@asterix.drev.dnd.ca (Louis Demers) (02/11/90)
In article <2857@draken.nada.htk.se> > > I've seen a CDEV that governs this exact thing (called MenuDrag, or >MenuSelect, or something like that). There is indeed a popup and a drag >delay for hierarchical menus; their values are stored in the PRAM (the >extended area,... I too seem to remember that these values were stored in PRAM, I think it was in the draft version of IM Vol V. tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes: >...However, this got me to thinking -- what if they're using the menu >flash setting as the drag delay? So, I just tested it, and it appears >this is the case. I tried that and I could not see a difference in the tolerance of the MenuSelect no matter what the menuflash setting was. I did find something interesting though, the drag delay seems to be used only if you drag a certain way. If you leave the item having the hierarchical menu in the general direction of the submenu, then the drag delay appears to be used. If you drag straight down, the switch to the new item will be immediate. In his article, Mr. Maroney goes on to say: > I can drag to a submenu at a leisurely speed with >the menu flash set to 1, but I have to jerk my hand at setting 3; and 3 >was my previous setting. This explains why I was having problems. In view of my comments above, were you dragging exactly through the same path (I know it's difficult to evaluate :-) and using the same menu item , same start point ? Bye, Louis -- | Louis Demers | DREV, Defence Research Establishment,Valcartier | | louis@asterix.drev.dnd.ca | POBox 8800, Courcelette,Quebec, CANADA, G0A 1R0 | | (131.132.48.2) | Office: (418) 844-4424 fax (418) 844-4511 | +---------------------------+-------------------------------------------------+
murat@farcomp.UUCP (Murat Konar) (02/11/90)
In article <10164@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >No, there's nothing about parameter RAM in Inside Mac volume V, and it >also seems strange to me that Apple would put something in parameter >RAM without giving users a way to set it from the Control Panel. Just 'cause it's not documented doesn't mean it's not there. >However, this got me to thinking -- what if they're using the menu >flash setting as the drag delay? So, I just tested it, and it appears >this is the case. I can drag to a submenu at a leisurely speed with >the menu flash set to 1, but I have to jerk my hand at setting 3; and 3 >was my previous setting. This explains why I was having problems. No, something is still amiss. I have my mac set at 3 menu flashes and I can take as long as 1.5 seconds (estimated) between selecting a parent item and dragging over to its sub menu. I wonder if you have inadvertently mashed this low memory global somehow. Try using someone elses Mac (with some commercial type software, no INITs, just to make sure). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Have a day. :^| Murat N. Konar murat@farcomp.UUCP -or- farcomp!murat@apple.com
dce@smsc.sony.com (David Elliott) (02/11/90)
>In article <10164@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >>However, this got me to thinking -- what if they're using the menu >>flash setting as the drag delay? So, I just tested it, and it appears >>this is the case. I can drag to a submenu at a leisurely speed with I don't think so. I have a cdev called MenuTuner which can allegedly change the PRAM values associated with drag and hierarchical popup delays, but I haven't yet gotten it to allow me to change them. The cdev appears to not like my Mac. It displays one blank window, and a window with instructions and values, but I can't change the values in the boxes. Since it uses color, I don't think the cdev is incompatible with the Mac II. Anyway, I can send this to anyone who wants it, though I think I found it on sumex. -- David Elliott dce@smsc.sony.com | ...!{uunet,mips}!sonyusa!dce (408)944-4073 "You see everything -- you're omnivorous."
dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt) (02/12/90)
Well, I recently downloaded a little cdev called MenuTuner, written by
Carlos Weber (author of the FKEY Manager application). MenuTuner
permits you to adjust both hierarchical-menu timing controls... [1] the
amount of time that you must have the cursor on a parent menu item
before its associated submenu pops up, and [2] the amount of time during
which you can move the cursor off of the parent menu item before its
submenu vanishes.
It works. It's nice!
And, interestingly enough, I find that simply hitting the "Reset to
defaults" button was all I really needed to do! I have a hunch that
zapping the Mac's PRAM may set these delays to a ridiculously-low
value... perhaps to zero... and thus makes hierarchical menus harder to
use than when the Mac was "new, out of the box". Just a hunch, though.
I'll mail MenuTuner to Info-Mac and to comp.binaries.mac.
--
Dave Platt VOICE: (415) 493-8805
UUCP: ...!{ames,apple,uunet}!coherent!dplatt DOMAIN: dplatt@coherent.com
INTERNET: coherent!dplatt@ames.arpa, ...@uunet.uu.net
USNAIL: Coherent Thought Inc. 3350 West Bayshore #205 Palo Alto CA 94303chaffee@reed.UUCP (Alex Chaffee) (02/12/90)
In article <1990Feb11.155212.20053@smsc.sony.com> dce@Sony.COM (David Elliott) writes: >I don't think so. I have a cdev called MenuTuner which can allegedly >change the PRAM values associated with drag and hierarchical popup >delays, but I haven't yet gotten it to allow me to change them. I have the latest version of MenuTuner, fresh from Compu$erve. The first release used 32-bit PICTs which didn't show up on some Macs. I'll send it to sumex. >The cdev appears to not like my Mac. It displays one blank window, and >a window with instructions and values, but I can't change the values >in the boxes. Since it uses color, I don't think the cdev is incompatible >with the Mac II. The "blank window" problem is fixed (see above). I don't know about the other problem; try asking Carlos at 70277.726@compuserve.com. >David Elliott >dce@smsc.sony.com | ...!{uunet,mips}!sonyusa!dce >(408)944-4073 >"You see everything -- you're omnivorous." -- Alex Chaffee chaffee@reed.UUCP Reed College, Portland OR 97202 ____________________
louis@asterix.drev.dnd.ca (Louis Demers) (02/12/90)
This weekend, I dug through the ROM and MPW 3.0 include files. I found that SubMenu delay is stored at byte 126 of PRAM and the drag delay is at byte 127. At boot time, the values in PRAM are copied into low memory globals. At B5C is stored a handle; at offset 14 and 15 are stored both delays. If you just change the PRAM, you changes will take effect only after you reboot. If the PRAM values are 0, after they are copied to the RAM globals, 8 is added to the submenu delay, and 60 is added to the drag delay. so these are the defaults. To acces the extended PRAM, you need to use ReadXPram ($A051) and WriteXPram ($A052). Both use the same calling convention. A0 points to the data beeing transferred, the upper word of D0 contains the number of bytes to transfer, the lower word of D0 contains the index in PRAM where the transfer will take place. I wrote an MPW tool and experimented with those values and they work ! 8-). I was about to write a cdev, but this morning's news indicate that such a thing is already available. Oh well. Note that my earlier comment about the delay being used only if the movement is in the general direction toward the submenu still holds. History note: I recall seeing a reference to the PRAM on the topic of the menu delays in the beta draft of IM Vol V but in the beta version of the include files, no reference was made to the delays. In the final version of IM Vol V, no reference is made to the PRAM but now the include files give enough information about the delays and the PRAM to use them ! how's that for documentation ? Bye, Louis -- | Louis Demers | DREV, Defence Research Establishment,Valcartier | | louis@asterix.drev.dnd.ca | POBox 8800, Courcelette,Quebec, CANADA, G0A 1R0 | | (131.132.48.2) | Office: (418) 844-4424 fax (418) 844-4511 | +---------------------------+-------------------------------------------------+