gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (02/08/90)
Got my free issue of d e v e l o p the other day, and it looked pretty cool. Only problem was that I couldn't run the CD (primarily since I don't have a CD ROM reader). Bummer. I hear Jasmine may be coming out with a relatively inexpensive CD ROM reader. Now, I'm not about to buy one just for the d e v e l o p CD, but I'd consider it if other development materials, such as Phil & Dave's Excellent CD, et al., were available to the non-Partner/Associate public. So, what's the inside dope? Will Phil & Dave (and other development CD's) be hanging out at APDA anytime soon? Robert ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) (02/08/90)
In article <7497@tank.uchicago.edu> gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: >I hear Jasmine may be coming out with a relatively inexpensive CD ROM reader. >Now, I'm not about to buy one just for the d e v e l o p CD, but I'd >consider it if other development materials, such as Phil & Dave's Excellent CD, >et al., were available to the non-Partner/Associate public. At this point I cannot really say yes or no. All I can say is that a lot of discussion is going on right now about development CD-ROM discs and distribution through APDA. APDA has heard a lot of people requesting P & D (or a similar CD-ROM) and SpInside Macintosh, and they are doing they best they can to make a case for it. In my humble opinion (not that of Apple), if all goes WELL, non-Partners and non-Associates will soon see this type of information and these types of tools made available through APDA. But that is my idea of an ideal world, not my perception of reality. If you want things like this, then take the time to write APDA@Applelink.apple.com or call them and let them know. -- Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" - Richard Bach, _One_
gwk@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Tom Arnold) (02/08/90)
In article <7497@tank.uchicago.edu> gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: >Got my free issue of d e v e l o p the other day, and it looked pretty cool. >Only problem was that I couldn't run the CD (primarily since I don't have a CD >ROM reader). Bummer. > >I hear Jasmine may be coming out with a relatively inexpensive CD ROM reader. >Now, I'm not about to buy one just for the d e v e l o p CD, but I'd >consider it if other development materials, such as Phil & Dave's Excellent CD, >et al., were available to the non-Partner/Associate public. Regarding CD ROM Drives, you might want to check out the March(!) issue of Mac User, which is, by the way, out already (my they're quick!). On page 150 they review 6 CD ROM drives: Toshiba XM-3201, CD Technology Porta-Drive, Denon DRD-253, Apple CD SC, OMI ProCDP, and the NEC CDR-77. I found it to be interesting reading and am now saving up to purchase the CD Technology Porta- Drive (MacUser rated it as the best of the 6) for $895. According to the article, Mac User will be reviewing all available Mac CD's on the market. Looking forward to that!! As for Phil & Dave's Disc, I was told that it is only sold to developer's, and even then at a high price (don't recall what it was). Tom -- gwk@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
philip@Kermit.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (02/08/90)
In article <38426@apple.Apple.COM>, mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) writes: > a case for it. In my humble opinion (not that of Apple), if all goes WELL, > non-Partners and non-Associates will soon see this type of information and > these types of tools made available through APDA. But that is my idea of > -- > Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson > Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com > Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson > > "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" > - Richard Bach, _One_ I've never been able to understand this APDA thing. Why doesn't Apple distribute development software through regular stores (OK, as well as through APDA, if there are a lot of products that wouldn't sell in sufficient volume to be carried by a retailer). And, for that matter, why restrict certain products to various categories of certified developers? Who REALLY gains from all this? Philip Machanick philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) (02/08/90)
In article <7202@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> gwk@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Tom Arnold) writes: >As for Phil & Dave's Disc, I was told that it is only sold to developer's, and >even then at a high price (don't recall what it was). Phil & Dave's Excellent CD is given to Partners and Associates at NO CHARGE. They get quarterly CD-ROM discs as part of the developer program. It does cost to be a part of the program, however. -- Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" - Richard Bach, _One_
chewy@apple.com (Paul Snively) (02/09/90)
In article <1990Feb7.234134.5010@Neon.Stanford.EDU> philip@Kermit.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) writes: > I've never been able to understand this APDA thing. Why doesn't Apple > distribute development software through regular stores (OK, as well as > through APDA, if there are a lot of products that wouldn't sell in > sufficient volume to be carried by a retailer). And, for that matter, > why restrict certain products to various categories of certified > developers? Who REALLY gains from all this? > > Philip Machanick > philip@pescadero.stanford.edu Well, here's my personal interpretation: First of all, almost NONE of anything sold by APDA would sell in enough quantities to make it worth a dealer's while. The one exception to this seems to be the literature, which generally can be found at any of the larger bookstores. The obvious (to me, anyway) reason for restricting certain materials to certain categories of developers is to make it worthwhile to BE one of those certain levels of developers. As for why we don't just support EVERYONE doing development, that's the easy part: there are about 35 of us here in MacDTS, and about 6,000 Apple Partners. Think about that for a minute. __________________________________________________________________________ Just because I work for Apple Computer, Inc. doesn't mean that they believe what I believe or vice-versa. __________________________________________________________________________ C++ -- The language in which only friends can access your private members. __________________________________________________________________________
abh0@GTE.COM (Andrew Hudson) (02/09/90)
In article <1990Feb7.234134.5010@Neon.Stanford.EDU< philip@pescadero.stanford.edu writes: <In article <38426@apple.Apple.COM>, mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) <writes: < <I've never been able to understand this APDA thing. Why doesn't Apple <distribute development software through regular stores (OK, as well as <through APDA, if there are a lot of products that wouldn't sell in <sufficient volume to be carried by a retailer). And, for that matter, <why restrict certain products to various categories of certified <developers? Who REALLY gains from all this? < <Philip Machanick <philip@pescadero.stanford.edu I think this has to do with Apple's Cult as Information Transfer model. This is discussed in The Macintosh Way by Kawasaki. - Andrew Hudson
fdm@WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM (Frank D. Malczewski) (02/09/90)
In article <38436@apple.Apple.COM> mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) writes: >In article <7202@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> gwk@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Tom Arnold) writes: >>As for Phil & Dave's Disc, I was told that it is only sold to developer's, and >>even then at a high price (don't recall what it was). > >Phil & Dave's Excellent CD is given to Partners and Associates at NO CHARGE. >They get quarterly CD-ROM discs as part of the developer program. It does >cost to be a part of the program, however. > > >-- >Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson >Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com >Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson > >"You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" > - Richard Bach, _One_ Yes, it certainly does cost :) It would be nice if P&D's Excellent CD was made available via other channels (i.e., APDA for example). I might also be encouraged somewhat to procure a CD-ROM player if it were. Speaking of CD-ROM releases, I read on GEnie that MPW 3.1 updates were to be (or maybe are already) available on CD-ROM at a somewhat cheaper price than the ordinary upgrade. True? What is Apple planning in the future for such sorts of releases? [Convince us that we really do want a CD-ROM player for Xmas :) ] --Frank Malczewski (fdm@wlv.imsd.contel.com) (malczews@nunki.usc.edu)
mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) (02/10/90)
In article <1990Feb7.234134.5010@Neon.Stanford.EDU> philip@pescadero.stanford.edu writes: > >I've never been able to understand this APDA thing. Why doesn't Apple >distribute development software through regular stores (OK, as well as >through APDA, if there are a lot of products that wouldn't sell in >sufficient volume to be carried by a retailer). And, for that matter, >why restrict certain products to various categories of certified >developers? Who REALLY gains from all this? Not that you get product support from APDA, but did you ever consider asking your dealer for help with MPW? Scary thought. Apple is aware of the support issue that people want, and we are trying to address those best we can. That's about all I can say on the topic. -- Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" - Richard Bach, _One_
mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) (02/10/90)
In article <46056@wlbr.IMSD.CONTEL.COM> fdm@WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM.UUCP (Frank D. Malczewski) writes: > >Yes, it certainly does cost :) It would be nice if P&D's Excellent CD was >made available via other channels (i.e., APDA for example). I might also >be encouraged somewhat to procure a CD-ROM player if it were. > >Speaking of CD-ROM releases, I read on GEnie that MPW 3.1 updates were to be >(or maybe are already) available on CD-ROM at a somewhat cheaper price than >the ordinary upgrade. True? What is Apple planning in the future for such >sorts of releases? [Convince us that we really do want a CD-ROM player for >Xmas :) ] All I can say is that Apple is committed to CD-ROM technology, especially for our developers. If you are serious about development on an Apple platform, you WANT a CD-ROM player and you want it now--don't wait for the last-minute rush. Let's just say that more and more CD-ROM material is coming and we believe it is the least expensive way to get lots of information and tools to our developer base (non-Partners and non-Associates included). -- Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" - Richard Bach, _One_
baumgart@esquire.dpw.com (Steve Baumgarten) (02/10/90)
In article <6579@internal.Apple.COM>, chewy@apple (Paul Snively) writes: >The obvious (to me, anyway) reason for restricting certain materials to >certain categories of developers is to make it worthwhile to BE one of >those certain levels of developers. As for why we don't just support >EVERYONE doing development, that's the easy part: there are about 35 of us >here in MacDTS, and about 6,000 Apple Partners. Think about that for a >minute. It's not that obvious to me. I certainly understand why you guys don't want to deal with phone calls (or Applelink mail, or whatever) from tens of thousands of people, but that doesn't explain why access to physical documentation is restricted (I'm thinking of the CD ROMs in this case). Sure, charge people if they want/need to have access to you guys to answer questions or whatever, or if they want to be sent updates on a regular basis, but for those of us who'd just like to have P&Ds CD, what's the problem? I mean, you let any old person with $20 (even Microsoft employees!) walk into Waldenbooks and buy Inside Mac --- how does the other documentation differ? And of course for their $20, none of those people expect the right to have access to Apple DTS, just the right to tear their hair out late at night... :-) How about if I sign one of those goofy, unenforceable license agreements (like the one I got with my free copy of "develop"): "I promise never to call Mark or Phil or Dave or even John, no matter how bad my problems look or feel..." :-) -- Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart, Davis Polk & Wardwell | remember, we were way ahead of you." baumgart@esquire.dpw.com | cmcl2!esquire!baumgart | - David Letterman
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (02/11/90)
In article <38493@apple.Apple.COM> mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) writes: >All I can say is that Apple is committed to CD-ROM technology, especially for >our developers. If you are serious about development on an Apple platform, >you WANT a CD-ROM player and you want it now--don't wait for the last-minute >rush. Actually, I want to wait for the last-minute rush, because then the prices will be less ridiculous. I'm not about to pay even the factor-of-five inflated "discount" price at this point; if I do, then I'll be kicking myself left and right in a year or two when the players only cost one or two hundred dollars. >Let's just say that more and more CD-ROM material is coming and we >believe it is the least expensive way to get lots of information and tools >to our developer base (non-Partners and non-Associates included). Least expensive way for you, perhaps. -- Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com These are not my opinions, those of my ex-employers, my old schools, my relatives, my friends, or really any rational person whatsoever.
epan@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Eric C. Pan) (02/12/90)
Being an apple partner and someone who happened to have access to both a CD drive and Phil and Dave's Excellent CD vol II - the release version, I can offer some insights into the issue. Even though it's true that it probably only cost Apple $2 - $5 dollars to make the CD itself, I can understand why it's relucant torelease it in APDA, not to say public. As we all know, it includes SpInside Mac.That is what? $125 dollars of Inside Macintosh ... then it has all the system and hypercard softwares - inclu ding a variety of international softwares.. plus source codes and utility programs.... All that means is that it's informational value compared to apple's traditional pricing should be about $400+. Now , let me ask you all, Are you willing to pay for that? Or do you think Apple will lower the price and offer competition to Addison-Wesley? Also, I can't imagine how many silly phone calls the tech support will get on the foreign language systems.... Now, APDA release will be reasonable. But like I've said, there will be a problem for Pricing.... but take my word for it... if you are serious about the Mac.... SpInside Macintosh is worth getting into Developer program, and buying a high speed hard disk to put it on....
mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) (02/13/90)
In article <10159@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: > >Actually, I want to wait for the last-minute rush, because then the >prices will be less ridiculous. I'm not about to pay even the >factor-of-five inflated "discount" price at this point; if I do, then >I'll be kicking myself left and right in a year or two when the players >only cost one or two hundred dollars. > No one is forcing you to purchase an Apple-labeled CD-ROM drive. There are lots of less expensive third-party drives on the market and you are free to purchase those if you think the Apple CD-ROM drive is overpriced. (I'll refrain from voicing my opinion on this matter of price.) All I am stating is that Apple is very committed to CD-ROM, and developers who want to stay current with Apple tools and information would benefit greatly from having a CD-ROM player. In some cases, those without CD-ROM players could be excluded or forced to pay expensive diskette shipping or AppleLink download prices. (I'll also refrain from voicing my opinion about pricing of these two services.) -- Mark B. Johnson AppleLink: mjohnson Developer Technical Support domain: mjohnson@Apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. UUCP: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!mjohnson "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" - Richard Bach, _One_
rickf@Apple.COM (Rick Fleischman) (02/13/90)
We have seen a lot of postings on netnews, and we have received a lot of calls at APDA, requesting that Phil and Dave's Excellent CD be made available through APDA. Hopefully the following will answer any questions you have about this: Phil and Dave's Excellent CD is restricted to Apple Partners and Associates due to the very preliminary nature of some of the materials contained on the CD-ROM. We want to be assured that those who receive these pre-pre-release code samples and tools have access to Apple Developer Technical Support. Please be assured that all the tools and references on Phil and Dave's Excellent CD that are considered robust enough for general distribution do go through APDA as soon as they have been tested. Many items on Phil and Dave's Excellent CD are already sold through APDA, including Macintosh and Apple II sample code, system software, and the technical notes HyperCard stack. Other features of Phil and Dave's Excellent CD, including SpInside Mac and international versions of HyperCard, will be available through APDA as soon as we can "productize" them. We appreciate your interest in these products. Our goal at APDA is still to give Apple's development products the widest possible distribution. When the tools on Phil and Dave's Excellent CD are ready for such distribution, they will be made available as soon as possible through APDA. Rick Fleischman Developer Channels/APDA Apple Computer, Inc. e-mail: rickf@apple.com AppleLink: FLEISCHMAN@applelink.apple.com
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (02/13/90)
In article <6635@internal.Apple.COM>, rickf@Apple.COM (Rick Fleischman) writes... Rick says (my paraphrase): [ Some P & D stuff is too "pre-pre-prerelease" for general distrib. People] [who get it should have access to DTS] > >We appreciate your interest in these products. Our goal at APDA is still >to give Apple's development products the widest possible distribution. >When the tools on Phil and Dave's Excellent CD are ready for such >distribution, they will be made available as soon as possible through APDA. Sounds fairly reasonable, but if the time delay is >=, say, 4-6 months, it really would be better for us if we got the buggy versions than to get the good versions half a year late. By that time, the Partners/Associates will already be on to the newest P & D disk, again 6 months ahead of "the rest of us". If it takes only, say, 2 months delay, that's not too bad, though. Robert ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
malczews@nunki.usc.edu (Frank Malczewski) (02/13/90)
> Other features of Phil and Dave's Excellent CD ... will be available > through APDA as soon as we can "productize" them. > ... > When the tools on Phil and Dave's Excellent CD are ready for such > distribution, they will be made available as soon as possible through APDA. > > Rick Fleischman Am I interpreting this correctly to mean that Apple's policy will be to sell each of the items on P&D's E CD individually via APDA for the non-developers and non-associates among us, and to make the CD available only to developers and associates? Or does this mean that P&D's E CD will be made available via APDA in due time? -- Frank Malczewski (malczews@nunki.usc.edu) (fdm@wlv.imsd.contel.com)
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (02/13/90)
In article <10159@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: >>Actually, I want to wait for the last-minute rush, because then the >>prices will be less ridiculous. I'm not about to pay even the >>factor-of-five inflated "discount" price at this point; if I do, then >>I'll be kicking myself left and right in a year or two when the players >>only cost one or two hundred dollars. In article <38555@apple.Apple.COM> mjohnson@Apple.COM (Mark B. Johnson) writes: >No one is forcing you to purchase an Apple-labeled CD-ROM drive. There >are lots of less expensive third-party drives on the market and you are >free to purchase those if you think the Apple CD-ROM drive is overpriced. >(I'll refrain from voicing my opinion on this matter of price.) The Apple drive at developer's discount is the lowest priced drive I've seen, about two-thirds the price of the nearest competitor. I'm not sure why you thought I was referring specifically to Apple CD-ROM drives. I was referring to all of them. I really have a lot of problems justifying to myself the purchase of machinery which in one form is five times more expensive than almost identical machinery in a slightly different form (different driver software and interface). >All I am stating is that Apple is very committed to CD-ROM, and developers >who want to stay current with Apple tools and information would benefit >greatly from having a CD-ROM player. In some cases, those without >CD-ROM players could be excluded or forced to pay expensive diskette >shipping or AppleLink download prices. (I'll also refrain from voicing >my opinion about pricing of these two services.) How many diskettes do you have to ship to pay for a CD-ROM drive? A few hundred? (And yes, I know there's a few hundred floppies worth of storage on a CD-ROM -- but as a developer, I don't *need* hundreds of megabytes of stuff from Apple; my total development software needs would fit comfortably on twenty to thirty floppies.) All I'm saying is that you're fooling yourself if you think CD-ROM is going to catch on in a big way before the prices come into the range of CD-audio drives. They're just ridiculously high now. -- Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com "Philosophy is the talk on a cereal box Religion is the smile on a dog" -- Edie Brickell, "What I Am"
bjb@pyramid.com (Bruce Beare) (02/14/90)
In article <6635@internal.Apple.COM> rickf@Apple.COM (Rick Fleischman) writes: > From: rickf@Apple.COM (Rick Fleischman) > Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple,comp.sys.mac,comp.sys.mac.programmer > Subject: Re: Phil & Dave, where are you? All is forgiven: come home! > Summary: Info about availability through APDA > Message-ID: <6635@internal.Apple.COM> > Date: 12 Feb 90 20:36:55 GMT > References: <7497@tank.uchicago.edu> <7202@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> <38436@apple.Apple.COM> <46056@wlbr.IMSD.CONTEL.COM> <38493@apple.Apple.COM> <10159@hoptoad.uucp> <38555@apple.Apple.COM> > Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA > Lines: 28 > Xref: pyramid comp.sys.apple:23177 comp.sys.mac:52414 comp.sys.mac.programmer:12937 > > We have seen a lot of postings on netnews, and we have received a lot of > calls at APDA, requesting that Phil and Dave's Excellent CD be made > available through APDA. Hopefully the following will answer any questions > you have about this: > > Phil and Dave's Excellent CD is restricted to Apple Partners and Associates > due to the very preliminary nature of some of the materials contained on the > CD-ROM. We want to be assured that those who receive these pre-pre-release > code samples and tools have access to Apple Developer Technical Support. > Please be assured that all the tools and references on Phil and Dave's > Excellent CD that are considered robust enough for general distribution > do go through APDA as soon as they have been tested. Many items on Phil > and Dave's Excellent CD are already sold through APDA, including Macintosh > and Apple II sample code, system software, and the technical notes HyperCard > stack. Other features of Phil and Dave's Excellent CD, including > SpInside Mac and international versions of HyperCard, will be available > through APDA as soon as we can "productize" them. > > We appreciate your interest in these products. Our goal at APDA is still > to give Apple's development products the widest possible distribution. > When the tools on Phil and Dave's Excellent CD are ready for such > distribution, they will be made available as soon as possible through APDA. > > Rick Fleischman > Developer Channels/APDA > Apple Computer, Inc. > e-mail: rickf@apple.com > AppleLink: FLEISCHMAN@applelink.apple.com This sounds like corporate bull to me. Not everyone who develops Mac code can afford to be a partner/associate -- or will even be accepted into the program. The Excellent CD DOES NOT NEED TO BE PRODUCTIZED for the APDA audience. People who would order it: + have a CD player + intend to develop code + understand about developer tools + are not your normal office automation user By 'productizing' the pieces, APDA will + raise the price! Each piece will probably cost at least $20. The ENTIRE CD could be sold for that same $20. I'd bet that if every individual piece of the CD was sold on separate floppies, it would cost upwards of $1000 to get them all! + delay the distribution -- by months! + not distribute many of the goodies! A bunch of stuff in there will never be distributed by APDA -- they will decide that either there is a commertial product that does the job, or that the tool is not important enough! This corporate PR slop about 'pre-pre-release' and 'very preliminary' sounds a lot like APPLE trying to protect me from myself. Come on! The community of people who want the CD don't need to be protected in this way! Bruce Beare bjb@pyramid.com [ Coverall disclaimer: My opinions are not even my own. ]
dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt) (02/14/90)
In article <6635@internal.Apple.COM> rickf@Apple.COM (Rick Fleischman) writes: > Phil and Dave's Excellent CD is restricted to Apple Partners and Associates > due to the very preliminary nature of some of the materials contained on the > CD-ROM. We want to be assured that those who receive these pre-pre-release > code samples and tools have access to Apple Developer Technical Support. > Please be assured that all the tools and references on Phil and Dave's > Excellent CD that are considered robust enough for general distribution > do go through APDA as soon as they have been tested. Many items on Phil > and Dave's Excellent CD are already sold through APDA, including Macintosh > and Apple II sample code, system software, and the technical notes HyperCard > stack. Other features of Phil and Dave's Excellent CD, including > SpInside Mac and international versions of HyperCard, will be available > through APDA as soon as we can "productize" them. > > We appreciate your interest in these products. Our goal at APDA is still > to give Apple's development products the widest possible distribution. > When the tools on Phil and Dave's Excellent CD are ready for such > distribution, they will be made available as soon as possible through APDA. I appreciate your clarification of Apple's position here, Rick. I do have several further questions which your posting does not answer, though, and I hope you can provide some additional answers and rationales for all of us slavering tool-junkies out here in NetLand: 1) You say that "some" of the materials are of a "very preliminary nature", and that you wish to be assured that everyone who gets their hands on these have access to DTS. Question: What fundamental difference is there between these utilities, and the "Class 3" software which APDA has been offering for sale for several years? To quote from the APDA manual: "developed... for prototyping interesting development environments or for quickly solving specific problems. Others were actually final products at one time but have not been revised or updated, nor are they expected to be upgraded... may not work perfectly with newer system software releases or computer models. Apple Computer does not recommend that you use Class 3 products for developing commercial software; they are intended for your personal enjoyment only." Suggestion: If APDA is already offering this sort of software, _explicitly_ with no support from APDA or DTS, then there would seem to be no fundamental barrier to offering Phil&Dave's CD through APDA, and advising its buyers that some portions are of "Class 3" quality. It's really no different from what you are already doing. 2) You say that "all the tools and references on Phil and Dave's Excellent CD that are considered robust enough for general distribution do go through APDA as soon as they have been tested." Observation: Sometimes this testing cycle seems to take an uncomfortably long time. For example, it took about six months for the draft documentation on 32-bit Color QuickDraw (released at the developer's conference) to become available through APDA (Fall '89 catalog). Comment: As an independent software developer, I would _much_ rather have quick access to draft documentation than be forced to wait many months for a polished version. 2) You write that "Many items on Phil and Dave's Excellent CD are already sold through APDA, including Macintosh and Apple II sample code, system software, and the technical notes HyperCard stack." Indeed. However, none of these things are currently available on CD-ROM. Currently, it's necessary to buy these things individually... usually on disk, with hardcopies attached... or download them from an online service and store them on floppies. This is an expensive process... the going APDA price for a single disk-and-documentation package seems to run $20-$25. It's easy to be twenty-dollared-to- death this way. I would _really_ like to see an APDA-supplied CD-ROM which contains the bulk of this sort of stuff... SpInside Mac, the Tech Notes and Q&A stacks, the System software, and so forth. This sort of CD-ROM would be much easier to handle than a collection of 20, 30, or 40 floppies... and the materials cost alone would be less than the cost of the corresponding number of floppies. Bulk DSDD floppies of good heritage (Sony, for example) seem to be available for about $.50 in large quantities... and the incremental cost-of-pressing of a CD-ROM is down below $2.50. The incremental cost of pressing CD-ROMs containing 100 megabytes of tools/software/documentation is FAR below the cost of distributing the same information on floppies or on paper. If APDA were to pass the reduced production cost on to its users (a heretical thought, perhaps?), it could significantly decrease the cost of achieving your stated goal of "the widest possible distribution." 3) You say "Other features of Phil and Dave's Excellent CD, including SpInside Mac and international versions of HyperCard, will be available through APDA as soon as we can 'productize' them." See [1] and [2] above... for how long must we wait? and will we be able to get these products as part of a reasonably-priced CD-ROM? As you can probably infer, I'm not really happy with the current state of affairs. Your posting is the first definitive public statement I've seen from anyone at APDA about this issue in the eight months or so I've been trying to buy this CD-ROM through APDA. I thank you for posting, and making your corporate position clear... but I disagree with APDA's position. Apple (DTS, in particular) has made statements endorsing the CD-ROM as a software distribution medium. I'd really like to see some consistent actions from APDA. I would *love* like to see APDA sell Phil&Dave's Excellent CD; I'd be satisfied to see APDA sell an "APDA's Very Own Tested and Sanitized CD-ROM of Useful System Software, Documentation, and Tools." As long the cost is reasonable (i.e. related directly to the cost of producing the CD-ROM... NOT based on the sum of the costs of the diskette distributions!) these two approaches would both be of real benefit to Mac software authors. I feel very strongly that APDA should do one or the other. Phil Ostron assured me that APDA listens to the voices of its customers, on the Net and otherwise. I'm not from Missouri, but I'll say it anyway: "Show me!" Respectfully yours... -- Dave Platt VOICE: (415) 493-8805 UUCP: ...!{ames,apple,uunet}!coherent!dplatt DOMAIN: dplatt@coherent.com INTERNET: coherent!dplatt@ames.arpa, ...@uunet.uu.net USNAIL: Coherent Thought Inc. 3350 West Bayshore #205 Palo Alto CA 94303