6600pete@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (GurgleKat [Pete Gontier]) (03/07/90)
From article <1831@esquire.UUCP>, by baumgart@esquire.dpw.com (Steve Baumgarten): > Specifically, people tend to want to cut and paste in dialog boxes and > are continually surprised and annoyed when they can't. Even if it's > the kludgy Hypercard script editor solution of supporting the keys and > not the Edit menu, anything would be better than forcing people to > type things when they shouldn't have to. Well, someone has to post this, so I figure I will in the hopes that the repetitious volume will be minimized. There are several INITs by Andrew Welch that add this command key functionality to dialogs. There is Commander Dialog, which evolved into Commander Dialog II, which melved into something much larger called BlackBox. And now BlackBox has calved again into a commercial product called QuickTools. (Welch is a busy bee, yes he is!) Also, someone now is obligated to post something saying "You shouldn't have to get an INIT to get that functionality." So there, I've posted it. And I agree with it. But while we're waiting for Apple to do it, Welch's products are a good alternative. > Nisus ... *always* keeps the Edit menu enabled, so that you can cut > and paste anywhere, even in modal and StdFile boxes ... if there's any > way to add support for Edit menu items in modal (and non-modal) dialog > boxes, I urge the Human Interface group to consider it. Well, I think that would be Engineering's problem, if HIG could yank the right peoples' chains. But it doesn't strike me as the most easily done thing. Compatibly, that is. Perhaps the command keys should work, but the Edit menu would be a bear. > By the way, Nisus also handles the issue of command-key equivalents in > dialog boxes with equal aplomb. [ description deleted ] I will suggest this to Welch. Might be neat to see if he could figure out how to do this system-wide. O'course, he has his deadlines... :-) -- Pete Gontier | InterNet: 6600pete@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu, BitNet: 6600pete@ucsbuxa Editor, Macker | Online Macintosh Programming Journal; mail for subscription Hire this kid | Mac, DOS, C, Pascal, asm, excellent communication skills
svc@well.sf.ca.us (Leonard Rosenthol) (03/10/90)
In article <4202@hub.UUCP> 6600pete@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu writes: >From article <1831@esquire.UUCP>, by baumgart@esquire.dpw.com (Steve Baumgarten): >> Nisus ... *always* keeps the Edit menu enabled, so that you can cut >> and paste anywhere, even in modal and StdFile boxes ... if there's any >> way to add support for Edit menu items in modal (and non-modal) dialog >> boxes, I urge the Human Interface group to consider it. > >Well, I think that would be Engineering's problem, if HIG could yank >the right peoples' chains. But it doesn't strike me as the most easily >done thing. Compatibly, that is. Perhaps the command keys should work, >but the Edit menu would be a bear. > Implementing the Edit is _NOT_ that much of a problem. It can be implemented quickly inside of any dialog box - the problem, however, is the HIG! The HIG clearly states that when a modal dialog box is up, that any clicks outsdie the window should beep (or do nothing at least). Also, most users look at the window, do not see a title bar, and therefore know that they can not get at the menus. (If the application were really good, it would also grey the menus on entry to the modal dialog to make this more apparent). Now that we have a 'new type of modal dialog' - the movable modal, which has a title bar, then it seems to me that supporting the edit menu (or any menu for that matter) makes more sense. Since I see the title bar, I assume that I can get to the menus - and lo and behold - I can (hopefully ;-) I should also point out that FullWrite was the first application (that I am aware of) to make menus avail inside of modal dialogs - but they also wrote their own menu and window managers so they could do that since they were their own 'Interface'... >> By the way, Nisus also handles the issue of command-key equivalents in >> dialog boxes with equal aplomb. [ description deleted ] > >I will suggest this to Welch. Might be neat to see if he could figure out >how to do this system-wide. O'course, he has his deadlines... :-) > Actually in his new product, Dialog Power (part of QuickTools), what Andrew has done is to adopt a method similar to that of MSWindows for showing the user what cmdKey will choose that button (or radio button or check box) by underlining the letter in the title of the button that is the cmdKey equiv. (it's even in red on a CQD machine ;-) I personally prefer this to the Nisus method since the contents of my buttons don't change just because I held down a modifier key. I think that the Nisus method is a conceptually nice step, but a _BAD VISUAL_ one. I also don't think that the Windows/DialogPower method is perfect, but it's better. -- +--------------------------------------------------+ Leonard Rosenthol | GEnie : MACgician Lazerware, inc. | MacNet: MACgician UUCP: svc@well.UUCP | ALink : D0025
russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) (03/10/90)
In article <16589@well.sf.ca.us> svc@well.UUCP (Leonard Rosenthol) writes: > > I should also point out that FullWrite was the first application >(that I am aware of) to make menus avail inside of modal dialogs - but they >also wrote their own menu and window managers so they could do that since they >were their own 'Interface'... First COMMERCIAL application, maybe. But I remember a hack way-back-when which made the (modal) Standard File Dialog modeless. -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu ][, ][+, ///, ///+, //e, //c, IIGS, //c+ --- Any questions?
gdavis@primate.wisc.edu (Gary Davis) (03/10/90)
From article <16589@well.sf.ca.us>, by svc@well.sf.ca.us (Leonard Rosenthol):
>>
- Actually in his new product, Dialog Power (part of QuickTools), what
- Andrew has done is to adopt a method similar to that of MSWindows for showing
- the user what cmdKey will choose that button (or radio button or check box)
- by underlining the letter in the title of the button that is the cmdKey equiv.
- (it's even in red on a CQD machine ;-) I personally prefer this to the Nisus
- method since the contents of my buttons don't change just because I held down
- a modifier key. I think that the Nisus method is a conceptually nice step,
- but a _BAD VISUAL_ one. I also don't think that the Windows/DialogPower
- method is perfect, but it's better.
I've always thought that those underlines all over the place in
Windows was one of the uglier aspects of that interface. The nice
thing about the Nisus method is that the command key equivalents
don't clutter things up unless you want to see them. Incidently,
the equivalent display doesn't change the contents of the button,
but puts up the reminder along side it.
Gary Davisphilip@Kermit.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (03/11/90)
In article <1990Mar9.193139.1194@eng.umd.edu>, russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) writes: > In article <16589@well.sf.ca.us> svc@well.UUCP (Leonard Rosenthol) writes: > > > > I should also point out that FullWrite was the first application > >(that I am aware of) to make menus avail inside of modal dialogs - but they > >also wrote their own menu and window managers so they could do that since they > >were their own 'Interface'... > > First COMMERCIAL application, maybe. But I remember a hack way-back-when > which made the (modal) Standard File Dialog modeless. FullWrite also implements an extra menu bar inside some of its dialogs. Maybe this reminds us a bit of MW Windows, but it could be a good idea on a large screen... Philip Machanick philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
ephraim@think.com (Ephraim Vishniac) (03/13/90)
In article <16589@well.sf.ca.us> svc@well.UUCP (Leonard Rosenthol) writes: > I should also point out that FullWrite was the first application >(that I am aware of) to make menus avail inside of modal dialogs - but they >also wrote their own menu and window managers so they could do that since they >were their own 'Interface'... Unless FullWrite is much older than I know, I think this honor goes to the MDS Assembler and Linker, which let you use the menus (at least to Quit or Transfer) during the GetFile dialog. I believe this was true in the earliest version of MDS (0.6, sometime in 1984?) that I ever saw. -- Ephraim Vishniac ephraim@think.com ThinkingCorp@applelink.apple.com Thinking Machines Corporation / 245 First Street / Cambridge, MA 02142 One of the flaws in the anarchic bopper society was the ease with which such crazed rumors could spread.