bskendig@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Brian Kendig) (03/15/90)
Inside Mac is chock full of information -- a good deal of it outdated,
obscure, or just flat-out wrong. It's nice that we have Tech Notes to
clear things up for us, but I don't like having to dig through the
indices for five volumes of IM as well as the TN index itself every
time I want to find out more about a Manager, or a technique, or so
forth.
Does Apple ever plan to rewrite Inside Macintosh? It would be Real
Nice if the current set of five volumes were to be completely
revamped, removing all of the old information, adding compilations of
the new stuff from the Tech Notes, and expanding on all of that with
examples, examples, and even a few examples. I'd be ecstatic if this
New, Improved Inside Macintosh were to be put into a HyperCard stack
-- better yet, a stack on a CD-ROM -- so that we could actually USE a
Mac to get at it.
I have a bad feeling that all they're going to do when System Seven
comes out is to add a Volume Six to what they've already got, and
throw a whole lotta new Tech Notes at us. However, there's always the
chance that sanity will prevail, and they'll choose to update.
I can already hear the cries now: You *can't* rewrite IM! All my
notes refer to page numbers [or section numbers, or nonesuch] in the
books!" If you're silly enough to reference everything by page
number, then you should be programming in BASIC.
While I'm on the subject, has there ever been a list compiled of all
the known typos and misteaks in Inside Macintosh? And if so, is that
list available on the net anywhere?
I think I'll go reread the description of the Sound Manager from my
copy of IM vol's I-III right now. (And we wonder why people can't
seem to be upwardly compatible with new Macs!)
<< Brian >>
--
| Brian S. Kendig \ Macintosh | Engineering, | bskendig |
| Computer Engineering |\ Thought | USS Enterprise | @phoenix.Princeton.EDU
| Princeton University |_\ Police | -= NCC-1701-D =- | @PUCC.BITNET |
... s l o w l y, s l o w l y, w i t h t h e v e l o c i t y o f l o v e.casseres@apple.com (David Casseres) (03/16/90)
In article <14532@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> bskendig@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Brian Kendig) writes: > ...It would be Real > Nice if the current set of five volumes were to be completely > revamped, removing all of the old information, adding compilations of > the new stuff from the Tech Notes, and expanding on all of that with > examples, examples, and even a few examples. I'd be ecstatic if this > New, Improved Inside Macintosh were to be put into a HyperCard stack > -- better yet, a stack on a CD-ROM -- so that we could actually USE a > Mac to get at it. It's been done! "Phil & Dave's Excellent CD," available to developers (tell APDA you want it from them) contains "SpInside Mac" -- all of IM, with the obsolete information removed, in a stack, plus the Tech Notes stack, with buttons linking each part of IM to the relevant tech notes. No expanded information or examples, though, because the goal was to get it out quickly. David Casseres Exclaimer: Hey!
es2q+@andrew.cmu.edu (Erik Warren Selberg) (03/16/90)
ok, and now for those of us without CD-ROMs...... #========##========##========##========*========##========##========##========# # MegaloErik: Loosing contact with VICE 10... Welcome to Andrew! # # ARPA: es2q+@andrew.cmu.edu Fido: 129/107 BBS: Mac @ Night (412) 268-8974 # # GEnie: E.SELBERG Delphi: LORDERIK CIS: 71470,2127 MacList: 6009/1 # #========##========##========##========*========##========##========##========# ...48 hours of continuous study have proven that Elvis is alive and teaching math at CMU.
rickf@Apple.COM (Rick Fleischman) (03/16/90)
>It's been done! "Phil & Dave's Excellent CD," available to developers >(tell APDA you want it from them) contains "SpInside Mac" -- all of IM, >with the obsolete information removed, in a stack, plus the Tech Notes >stack, with buttons linking each part of IM to the relevant tech notes. >No expanded information or examples, though, because the goal was to get >it out quickly. > >David Casseres > Exclaimer: Hey! Phil and Dave's Excellent CD is not, and will not be available through APDA. This is due to the fact that the CD contains several unfinished or untested items that are considered too preliminary for general distribution through APDA. The CD has only been made available to Apple Partners who have access to Developer Technical Support. Apple has made a commitment to making the tools contained on Phil and Dave's Excellent CD more generally available when they are in a more finished and tested state. Rick Fleischman Developer Channels/APDA Apple Computer, Inc. e-mail: rickf@apple.com AppleLink: FLEISCHMAN@applelink.apple.com
nick@lfcs.ed.ac.uk (Nick Rothwell) (03/16/90)
In article <7202@goofy.Apple.COM>, casseres@apple (David Casseres) writes: >In article <14532@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> bskendig@phoenix.Princeton.EDU >(Brian Kendig) writes: >> ...It would be Real >> Nice if the current set of five volumes were to be completely >> revamped, removing all of the old information, > >It's been done! "Phil & Dave's Excellent CD," available to developers >(tell APDA you want it from them) contains "SpInside Mac" -- all of >IM, And all for a mere order-of-magniture higher price for the CD_ROM player, CD, developer subscription fee, ... >David Casseres Nick. -- Nick Rothwell, Laboratory for Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh. nick@lfcs.ed.ac.uk <Atlantic Ocean>!mcsun!ukc!lfcs!nick ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ A prop? ...or wings? A prop? ...or wings? A prop?
mithomas@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Michael Thomas Niehaus) (03/18/90)
> Phil and Dave's Excellent CD is not, and will not be available through > APDA. This is due to the fact that the CD contains several unfinished > or untested items that are considered too preliminary for general > distribution through APDA... > > Rick Fleischman Yes, but APDA will ship preliminary documentation for other products without hesitation. Here's an example: Macintosh Communications Toolbox. The first beta documentation released was very hard to comprehend. The sample code was nearly useless. The manual contradicted itself in several places. But it was still useful for the information it contained. So put out Phil and Dave's CD anyway, label it beta, and we will be happy. I realy don't think we will mind wading through the problems. (Or how about this: Ship the current version for people who need something like it, and provide an automatic upgrade to the final version when it is released.) -Michael p.s. Did anyone notice this sample function prototype at the beginning of the CommToolbox final draft document: PROCEDURE GetDown(andBoogie: ONEMORETIME); -- Michael Niehaus UUCP: <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee}!bsu-cs!mithomas Apple Student Rep ARPA: mithomas@bsu-cs.bsu.edu Ball State University AppleLink: ST0374 (from UUCP: st0374@applelink.apple.com)
chewy@apple.com (Paul Snively) (03/18/90)
In article <2878@castle.ed.ac.uk> nick@lfcs.ed.ac.uk (Nick Rothwell) writes: > In article <7202@goofy.Apple.COM>, casseres@apple (David Casseres) writes: > >In article <14532@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> bskendig@phoenix.Princeton.EDU > >(Brian Kendig) writes: > >> ...It would be Real > >> Nice if the current set of five volumes were to be completely > >> revamped, removing all of the old information, > > > >It's been done! "Phil & Dave's Excellent CD," available to developers > >(tell APDA you want it from them) contains "SpInside Mac" -- all of > >IM, > > And all for a mere order-of-magniture higher price for the CD_ROM > player, CD, developer subscription fee, ... Huh? Being an Apple Partner costs $600/year, and gets you really good hardware discounts, access to MacDTS, access to events like the annual Spring Developers' Conference, and developer mailings, which include things like the CD. The CD-ROM drive, last I looked, was less costly than, say, Toshiba's. __________________________________________________________________________ Paul Snively Macintosh Developer Technical Support Apple Computer, Inc. 1st Choice: Paul_Snively.DTS@qm.gateway.apple.com 2nd Choice: CHEWBACCA@applelink.apple.com Last Choice: chewy@apple.com Just because I work for Apple Computer, Inc. doesn't mean that I believe what they believe, or vice-versa. __________________________________________________________________________
mjkobb@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Michael J Kobb) (03/19/90)
In article <7248@goofy.Apple.COM> chewy@apple.com (Paul Snively) writes:
[regarding SpInside Mac on CD-ROM]
:: And all for a mere order-of-magniture higher price for the CD_ROM
:: player, CD, developer subscription fee, ...
:
:Huh? Being an Apple Partner costs $600/year, and gets you really good
:hardware discounts, access to MacDTS, access to events like the annual
:Spring Developers' Conference, and developer mailings, which include
:things like the CD.
:
:The CD-ROM drive, last I looked, was less costly than, say, Toshiba's.
Not true. Apple CD-ROM drive retails for $1200, and its educational price is
$1000. Toshiba's I've seen advertized for $700.
Even so $700 + $600 = $1300
$1300 + $??? for the CD-ROM > $1300
Meanwhile, Inside Mac: 5 @ $25 = $125.
$1300/$125 > 10, so it's an order of magnitude increase. That's the point....
--Mikephilip@Kermit.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (03/19/90)
In article <10938@bsu-cs.bsu.edu>, mithomas@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Michael Thomas Niehaus) writes: > > Phil and Dave's Excellent CD is not, and will not be available through > > APDA. This is due to the fact that the CD contains several unfinished > > or untested items that are considered too preliminary for general > > distribution through APDA... > > > > Rick Fleischman > > Yes, but APDA will ship preliminary documentation for other products without > hesitation. Here's an example: Macintosh Communications Toolbox. The first > beta documentation released was very hard to comprehend. The sample code > was nearly useless. The manual contradicted itself in several places. But > it was still useful for the information it contained. > > So put out Phil and Dave's CD anyway, label it beta, and we will be happy. If you want more examples of "unsupported" things which have been sold through APDA: Smalltalk-80 and Macintalk. The former was a Good Idea because it was only of appeal to sophisticated programmers and was anyway replaced by good commercial products. The latter was NOT a Good Idea, because Apple didn't think about replacing it with a workable alternative (well, if they did, they haven't done anything about it yet). So: be consistent, Apple. If something is not currently supportable, but is going to be part of a "finished" product, why not sell it with large red disclaimers? You've done it before. This is a hell of a lot better than selling an "unfinished" hack like Macintalk, complete with disclaimers, and ignoring the fact that there are a lot of people who actually use it and would be really happy if a "supported" version appeared. Philip Machanick philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
blob@Apple.COM (Brian Bechtel) (03/19/90)
In article <1911@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> mjkobb@media-lab.media.mit.edu (Michael J Kobb) writes: >In article <7248@goofy.Apple.COM> chewy@apple.com (Paul Snively) writes: >:The CD-ROM drive, last I looked, was less costly than, say, Toshiba's. > >Not true. Apple CD-ROM drive retails for $1200, and its educational price is >$1000. Toshiba's I've seen advertized for $700. We dropped the retail price on the AppleCD SC to $899 in the USA. (I'm sure the educational and other prices dropped as well, but I haven't seen a press release about that.) That probably means the "street" price is comparable to Toshiba's. --Brian Bechtel blob@apple.com "My opinions, not Apple's"
mjkobb@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Michael J Kobb) (03/19/90)
In article <39591@apple.Apple.COM> blob@Apple.COM (Brian Bechtel) writes: >In article <1911@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> mjkobb@media-lab.media.mit.edu (Michael J Kobb) writes: >>In article <7248@goofy.Apple.COM> chewy@apple.com (Paul Snively) writes: >>:The CD-ROM drive, last I looked, was less costly than, say, Toshiba's. >> >>Not true. Apple CD-ROM drive retails for $1200, and its educational price is >>$1000. Toshiba's I've seen advertized for $700. > >We dropped the retail price on the AppleCD SC to $899 in the USA. (I'm >sure the educational and other prices dropped as well, but I haven't >seen a press release about that.) That probably means the "street" >price is comparable to Toshiba's. Thanks to the folks who have written to correct my price quote. I was quoting from MIT's computer store's price list, which is the March-April '90 list, so apparently they haven't heard about the change just yet. Would anybody who has had experience with Apple's and Toshiba's drives like to comment? I liked the Toshiba I saw because it loaded with a drawer, not an awkward cartridge. What I really want is a read/write/erase drive that does disks that can be read by a normal CD-ROM drive (and yes, the hidden agenda: audio disk players). That will be a drive to have! More in a bit... --Mike
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (03/19/90)
In article <14532@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> bskendig@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Brian Kendig) writes: >> >> ...It would be Real >> >> Nice if the current set of five volumes were to be completely >> >> revamped, removing all of the old information, In article <7202@goofy.Apple.COM>, casseres@apple (David Casseres) writes: >> >It's been done! "Phil & Dave's Excellent CD," available to developers >> >(tell APDA you want it from them) contains "SpInside Mac" In article <2878@castle.ed.ac.uk> nick@lfcs.ed.ac.uk (Nick Rothwell) writes: >> And all for a mere order-of-magniture higher price for the CD_ROM >> player, CD, developer subscription fee, ... In article <7248@goofy.Apple.COM> chewy@apple.com (Paul Snively) writes: >Huh? Being an Apple Partner costs $600/year, and gets you really good >hardware discounts, access to MacDTS, access to events like the annual >Spring Developers' Conference, and developer mailings, which include >things like the CD. Add it up. Without giving away the developer price for Apple's player, which is officially confidential, the cost of a developer subscription and an Apple CD-ROM drive is almost precisely ten times the cost of a printed set of Inside Macintosh. (The CD is free to subscribers.) As for all the other benefits of the developer program, the hardware discounts are indeed very good provided you're planning on buying enough equipment every year to make up the $600 subscription fee. And as for the mailings, I've talked with other developers about them, and we all agree that at least three quarters is instant circular file material. Pretty hefty price for junk mail. >The CD-ROM drive, last I looked, was less costly than, say, Toshiba's. Yes, it's the cheapest on the market for deveopers. However, look at what you get for an audio CD player that's five times cheaper. You can't even *buy* an audio CD player without an autoloading disk drawer; but the retail price $1100 Apple CD-ROM player doesn't have one -- it has a universally criticized cartridge loader. For $250, you can buy a good audio CD-ROM carousel changer; this is four times cheaper than the retail price of the Apple CD-ROM single player. I think CD-ROM has great potential, but people are going to have to face facts. It's not going to be significant until the drive prices drop. -- Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com "Every year, thousands of new Randoids join the ranks. Most tend to be either too-rich self-made tycoons or picked-on computer nerds (the romantic, heroic individualism of Rand's novels flatters the former and fuels the latter's revenge fantasies)." -- Bob Mack, SPY, July 1989
erci18@castle.ed.ac.uk (A J Cunningham) (03/19/90)
In article <7248@goofy.Apple.COM> chewy@apple.com (Paul Snively) writes: >Huh? Being an Apple Partner costs $600/year, and gets you really good >hardware discounts, access to MacDTS, access to events like the annual >Spring Developers' Conference, and developer mailings, which include >things like the CD. Unless of course you happen to be a UK Developer ($960 a year) and then you get hardware at more than the US list price, access to Apple UK DTS who know nothing about anything and a chance to be told over the phone (if you can get through or get your calls returned) that Phil and Dave CDs are not going to be made available to UK Developers and no we aren't going to ship the 'Develop' CD series. :-( >The CD-ROM drive, last I looked, was less costly than, say, Toshiba's. Not in this country even with the 'generous' developer discount :-( Tony -- Tony Cunningham, Edinburgh University Computing Service. erci18@castle.ed.ac.uk Yuppies think I'm a wino 'cos I seem to have no class, Girls think I'm perverted 'cos I watch them as they pass.
nick@lfcs.ed.ac.uk (Nick Rothwell) (03/19/90)
In article <7248@goofy.Apple.COM>, chewy@apple (Paul Snively) writes: >In article <2878@castle.ed.ac.uk> nick@lfcs.ed.ac.uk (Nick Rothwell) >writes: >> And all for a mere order-of-magniture higher price for the CD_ROM >> player, CD, developer subscription fee, ... > >Huh? Being an Apple Partner costs $600/year, Well, that's N times the cost of the books already, and in my books counts as a lot of money. >and gets you really good >hardware discounts, access to MacDTS, ...even in Europe? > access to events like the annual >Spring Developers' Conference, Unfortunately, the cost of a return flight to the US is probably as much as the Apple Partner fee, and besides, the jet-lag... >The CD-ROM drive, last I looked, was less costly than, say, >Toshiba's. I'd rather just have the books. (I have IM I and II, which is plenty for my needs). > Paul Snively Nick. -- Nick Rothwell, Laboratory for Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh. nick@lfcs.ed.ac.uk <Atlantic Ocean>!mcsun!ukc!lfcs!nick ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ A prop? ...or wings? A prop? ...or wings? A prop?
mxmora@unix.SRI.COM (Matt Mora) (03/20/90)
In article <10854@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes: > >Yes, it's the cheapest on the market for deveopers. However, look at >what you get for an audio CD player that's five times cheaper. You >can't even *buy* an audio CD player without an autoloading disk drawer; >but the retail price $1100 Apple CD-ROM player doesn't have one -- it >has a universally criticized cartridge loader. For $250, you can buy a >good audio CD-ROM carousel changer; this is four times cheaper than the >retail price of the Apple CD-ROM single player. What a great idea. I can imagine my sony 5 disk carousel cd player on my mac with 5 cd's showing on my desktop. Any hardware hackers ready to retrofit my cd player? :-) >I think CD-ROM has great potential, but people are going to have to face >facts. It's not going to be significant until the drive prices drop. Or they add a lot more features to justify that price.(read/write) >-- >Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com > -- ___________________________________________________________ Matthew Mora SRI International mxmora@unix.sri.com ___________________________________________________________
chewy@apple.com (Paul Snively) (03/20/90)
In article <10854@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes: > Add it up. Without giving away the developer price for Apple's player, > which is officially confidential, the cost of a developer subscription > and an Apple CD-ROM drive is almost precisely ten times the cost of a > printed set of Inside Macintosh. (The CD is free to subscribers.) True, but Inside Macintosh isn't all that's on the two CDs that we've mailed to date. > As for all the other benefits of the developer program, the hardware > discounts are indeed very good provided you're planning on buying > enough equipment every year to make up the $600 subscription fee. Actually, the intent of the Partnership program is that the developer will easily make at least his/her $600/year back in software sales, even if there are no other benefits accrued (which there should be). > And as for the mailings, I've talked with other developers about them, and > we all agree that at least three quarters is instant circular file > material. Pretty hefty price for junk mail. This might be good material to feedback to Developer Programs. As it stands, a lot of people have their hands in the mailings, and they're geared toward multiple groups of people--marketers and engineers, to name just the two most obvious distinctions. When I was at a third-party house before starting at Apple, we threw out all of the marketing stuff but kept the technical stuff--and this was pre-CD-ROM. > Yes, it's the cheapest on the market for deveopers. However, look at > what you get for an audio CD player that's five times cheaper. You > can't even *buy* an audio CD player without an autoloading disk drawer; > but the retail price $1100 Apple CD-ROM player doesn't have one -- it > has a universally criticized cartridge loader. For $250, you can buy a > good audio CD-ROM carousel changer; this is four times cheaper than the > retail price of the Apple CD-ROM single player. Fair enough. I know a lotta folks are using the Toshiba drive or whatever they can afford for a CD-ROM player, and that's fine (MacDTS has even helped Toshiba get their CD-ROM driver right). No one's forcing anyone to use an Apple CD-ROM, and for what it's worth I personally hope that we go to a different OEM at some point soon. In the meantime, given a properly-written driver, our CD-ROMs should work on your drive just fine. > I think CD-ROM has great potential, but people are going to have to face > facts. It's not going to be significant until the drive prices drop. Here, here. __________________________________________________________________________ Paul Snively Macintosh Developer Technical Support Apple Computer, Inc. 1st Choice: Paul_Snively.DTS@qm.gateway.apple.com 2nd Choice: CHEWBACCA@applelink.apple.com Last Choice: chewy@apple.com Just because I work for Apple Computer, Inc. doesn't mean that I believe what they believe, or vice-versa. __________________________________________________________________________
dwt@well.sf.ca.us (dwt) (03/20/90)
>> ok, and now for those of us without CD-ROMs......
My prediction is that that the CD-ROM Drive is the most popular
add-on purchase for a Serious Mac Developer in the next 12 months.
So get real and get a CD-ROM Drive, or your only playing at
this game!
--
David W. Taylor, Detail Software,75 Camino De Herrera, San Anselmo, CA 94960
(415) 453-0712 dwt@well.sf.ca.usEric.Larson@f22.n282.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Eric Larson) (03/20/90)
RF> Phil and Dave's Excellent CD is not, and will not be RF> available through RF> APDA. This is due to the fact that the CD contains several RF> unfinished RF> or untested items that are considered too preliminary for RF> general RF> distribution through APDA. The CD has only been made RF> available to Apple RF> Partners who have access to Developer Technical Support. RF> Apple has made RF> a commitment to making the tools contained on Phil and RF> Dave's Excellent RF> CD more generally available when they are in a more RF> finished and tested RF> state. <sigh> Unfortunately Phil and Dave's CD contains many quite useful tools, such as the aforementioned Spinside Mac that would be of great value to us shareware authors who program primarily for the love of it, or to students, etc. who just do not have the scratch to pay for the $600 per year that it costs to be an Apple Partner. It is my own, perhaps self-interested, opinion that the current Apple technique of withholding such information and tools from the less well-heeled, but potentially quite creative group of "fringe" programmers is doing Apple a great disservice. Totally new, "Insanely Great" ideas for application programs don't come from companies like Lotus et al for the simple reason that they can't afford that sort of gamble. They come from the garage programmers. The MS-DOS world is graced with many suprisingly high quality shareware products in major application classes such as word processors, databases, spreadsheets, comm software, etc. What does the Mac world have for equivalents? Not one word processor or database, one rather hoary old spreadsheet that hasn't been updated in years, and Zterm. Programs with the cost/performance of PC-File, Wampum, PC-Write, Telix, As-Easy-As, Galaxy, and so on are totally unavailable to Mac owners. When I talk to local individuals who are comptemplating buying hardware, one of the reasons they often give for choosing MS-DOS over Apple is the wide availability of major application software packages at very low prices from the shareware distribution channel. Unfortunately I can't argue with this, for major Mac application software often costs 10 times what is available in the PC shareware channel. Apple MUST consider that it is the total cost/benefit ratio of the solution that is often important to the end user, and encourage this sort of work through the availability of as much information to programmers as possible, at the lowest possible cost. -- Eric Larson - via FidoNet node 1:282/33 UUCP: ...!uunet!imagery!22!Eric.Larson ARPA: Eric.Larson@f22.n282.z1.FIDONET.ORG
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (03/21/90)
>In article <10854@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes: >> Add it up. Without giving away the developer price for Apple's player, >> which is officially confidential, the cost of a developer subscription >> and an Apple CD-ROM drive is almost precisely ten times the cost of a >> printed set of Inside Macintosh. (The CD is free to subscribers.) In article <7257@goofy.Apple.COM> chewy@apple.com (Paul Snively) writes: >True, but Inside Macintosh isn't all that's on the two CDs that we've >mailed to date. Also true; the original poster was being a bit rhetorical. But he did have a valid point; you can't get the new Inside mac without sinking a ton of money into it. Well, a half-ton. You also get some other stuff, but if what you're after is a new Inside Mac, well.... Incidentally, I'd prefer a new paper edition. Half the time that I consult Inside Mac, I'm sitting in MacsBug. A HyperCard stack isn't all that useful in that situation. >> As for all the other benefits of the developer program, the hardware >> discounts are indeed very good provided you're planning on buying >> enough equipment every year to make up the $600 subscription fee. >Actually, the intent of the Partnership program is that the developer will >easily make at least his/her $600/year back in software sales, even if >there are no other benefits accrued (which there should be). Could you expand on this? I'm not sure I'm getting your meaning. >> And as for the mailings, I've talked with other developers about them, and >> we all agree that at least three quarters is instant circular file >> material. Pretty hefty price for junk mail. >This might be good material to feedback to Developer Programs. As it >stands, a lot of people have their hands in the mailings, and they're >geared toward multiple groups of people--marketers and engineers, to name >just the two most obvious distinctions. When I was at a third-party house >before starting at Apple, we threw out all of the marketing stuff but kept >the technical stuff--and this was pre-CD-ROM. It would probably be a good idea to separate these communities in the mailings. Useless-seeming mailings reflect poorly on Apple even if in fact the mailings have a raison d'etre. At the very least, stop sending Mac developers the Apple ][ Tech Notes! >> I think CD-ROM has great potential, but people are going to have to face >> facts. It's not going to be significant until the drive prices drop. >Here, here. And I'm glad that Apple has cut their prices, but they're still way too high. I have some ideas for projects which would naturally live on CD-ROM, but there's no way I'm going to sink much time into them until the market grows, which isn't going to happen until the players are comparable to floppy drives at somewhere in the $200-$300 range. What I find annoying is the probability that companies could afford to do this now. Lines making audio CD drives could easily be converted to making CD-ROM drives. There are so many personal computers now that the drives would be essentially consumer items. But there seems to be a false economy in play, in which no one wants to be the first to make their prices reasonable; "if company X is getting $750 for theirs, I'll be damned if I'll sell mine for $250!" If the prices were to be cut, they'd more than make up for it in volume. But that's not corporate-think. -- Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com "Gorbachev is returning to the heritage of the great Lenin" - Ronald Reagan
nick@lfcs.ed.ac.uk (Nick Rothwell) (03/21/90)
In article <16759@well.sf.ca.us>, dwt@well (dwt) writes: >My prediction is that that the CD-ROM Drive is the most popular >add-on purchase for a Serious Mac Developer in the next 12 months. > >So get real and get a CD-ROM Drive, or your only playing at >this game! But I WANT to just play at this game. I have a Mac at home, and I want to write applications for it. I paid close on $2000 for a Mac+, HD, THINK C and a couple of IM books. (and you don't want to know how much hassle I had finding the IM books.) Are you telling me I should pay as much again just to find out how to program my own computer? Huge developers' fees are fine for commercial developers living in California with easy access to developer support and so on. Do Apple want to completely cut out the guy in Europe who bought a Mac for home use, and who wants to program it? I guess so. So much for the open software design, the Machine For The Rest Of Us, the Power To Be Our Best, and so on. >David W. Taylor Nick. -- Nick Rothwell, Laboratory for Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh. nick@lfcs.ed.ac.uk <Atlantic Ocean>!mcsun!ukc!lfcs!nick ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ A prop? ...or wings? A prop? ...or wings? A prop?
bc@modernlvr.sgi.com (Bill Coderre) (03/23/90)
|In article <14532@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> bskendig@phoenix.Princeton.EDU |(Brian Kendig) writes: |> ...It would be Real |> Nice if the current set of five volumes were to be completely |> revamped, removing all of the old information, adding compilations of |> the new stuff from the Tech Notes, and expanding on all of that with |> examples, examples, and even a few examples. I'd be ecstatic if this |> New, Improved Inside Macintosh were to be put into a HyperCard stack |> -- better yet, a stack on a CD-ROM -- so that we could actually USE a |> Mac to get at it. casseres@apple.com (David Casseres) writes: |It's been done! "Phil & Dave's Excellent CD," available to developers |(tell APDA you want it from them) contains "SpInside Mac" -- all of IM, |with the obsolete information removed, in a stack, plus the Tech Notes |stack, with buttons linking each part of IM to the relevant tech notes. |No expanded information or examples, though, because the goal was to get |it out quickly. Before anyone gets too bent out of shape about not being able to get vital programmers' info from Apple since APDA has decided the info isn't "good" enough, let me point out just exactly what Mr Casseres was saying. (I've only played with SpInside Mac for a few hours, so I might not be fully correct. If so, I welcome your corrections.) SpInside Mac is a stack which contains the text of IM I-V, *minus* such obviously out-of-date sections as the MFS chapter of IM II. It also contains pointers between IM and TechNotes and Developer Q&A notes. It is, therefore, virtually identical to the paper IM. It doesn't have any revisions to speak of, since no text was really rewritten. I'm glad Apple has undertaken the task of making an on-line reference. It will obviously be of great value when they finish. Can someone tell me what ELSE is on Phil & Dave's CD, especially what is of interest to a meat'n'potatoes programmer? bc (whose only connection to SGI is that his girlfriend works there)
arvidson@euclid.MATH.ColoState.Edu (John Arvidson) (03/23/90)
Ever since I saw the following message in an info-mac digest I have been
patiently waiting for SpInside Macintosh to be posted to Apple.com. Does
anyone know the current status of this situation??
John Arvidson
arvidson@euclid.math.colostate.edu
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 90 21:31:09 PST
From: Mark B. Johnson <mjohnson@apple.com>
Subject: Human Interface Notes
The first six Human Interface Notes (updates to the book) are now
available for FTP from Apple.com. They are StuffIt format MacWrite
files available in the ~ftp/pub/dts/human.interface directory and
they are applicable to both Apple II and Macintosh developers.
Apple II sites should expect the January release of Technical Notes
within a few days, and Macintosh sites should expect the February
release of Technical Notes within two weeks.
We also recently got clearance to put some System Software and other
development tools up for FTP, but we have to work out the logistics
of doing it...but its just a matter of time now. Same goes for
SpInside Macintosh. Should be able to put it up in a few weeks if
the decision we are expecting is made. Thanks for the patience.
Markkeith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (03/24/90)
In article <2967@castle.ed.ac.uk> nick@lfcs.ed.ac.uk (Nick Rothwell) writes: >In article <16759@well.sf.ca.us>, dwt@well (dwt) writes: >>My prediction is that that the CD-ROM Drive is the most popular >>add-on purchase for a Serious Mac Developer in the next 12 months. >> >>So get real and get a CD-ROM Drive, or your only playing at >>this game! > >But I WANT to just play at this game. I have a Mac at home, and I want >to write applications for it. I paid close on $2000 for a Mac+, HD, >THINK C and a couple of IM books. (and you don't want to know how much >hassle I had finding the IM books.) Are you telling me I should pay >as much again just to find out how to program my own computer? No, you don't have to do that. However, just like with a car, extras cost extra. Air conditioning is *nice*, but you don't need it to drive your car. Something like SpInside Mac is *nice*, but you don't need it to program your computer. People have managed to scrape by without it for years now. >Huge developers' fees are fine for commercial developers living >in California with easy access to developer support and so on. >Do Apple want to completely cut out the guy in Europe who bought a Mac >for home use, and who wants to program it? Anyone in America has the same sort of access to developer support that a developer in California does. We take all of our questions electronically, so it doesn't matter where you are. The exceptions to this are International developers. We in Cupertino found ourselves being deluged by questions from all over the world. We just couldn't handle them all without either sacrificing quality or turn-around time. So the various International offices are taking up the slack by creating their own DTS departments. There is a EURO.DTS that is the bottleneck for all European questions. There are also offices in Japan Australia, the UK, France, Austria, Germany, etc. I hope that not too many people consider $600 "huge". Considering what $600 gets you, and considering that it doesn't even begin to pay for our costs in giving that support, and considering that other companies charge up to $9000 for similar support, I don't think it's too out of line. Of course, it DOES cut out some people. I remember being in college, where $5 was food for 2 days, and where the loose change I had in pocket was all the money I had in the world. But it's hard -- very hard -- to be everything for everybody. With the situation right now, we can't support poor developers who can't afford Apple Developer Support. On the other hand, if we opened up support to everyone, the the big companies like Claris and MicroSoft feel slighted because we are helping someone figure how to write an INIT that makes the the garbage can emit funny noises when you empty it, rather than helping them on Excel 10.0 or MacWrite III 5.2 v4. I don't think that we're kowtowing to big corporate pressure, but we have to strive for some middle ground. >I guess so. So much for the open software design, the Machine >For The Rest Of Us, the Power To Be Our Best, and so on. Depends on how you limit yourself in your own mind. Ray Lau wrote StuffIt without any fancy aids. Look at where it got him now. The guy's...what...15? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. --- Developer Technical Support INTERNET: keith@apple.com UUCP: {decwrl, hoptoad, nsc, sun, amdahl}!apple!keith "Argue for your Apple, and sure enough, it's yours" - Keith Rollin, Contusions
amanda@mermaid.intercon.com (Amanda Walker) (03/24/90)
In article <39765@apple.Apple.COM>, keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: > Something > like SpInside Mac is *nice*, but you don't need it to program your computer. > People have managed to scrape by without it for years now. Also, a lot of this stuff is definitely in the "it's a prototype but it might be useful" category. I've played with SpInside Mac, and frankly, it's not all that useful in real life, although it makes a real nice CD-ROM demo. I'm back to using my 5 volumes of Inside Mac and 3 notebooks full of Tech Notes, for the following reasons (among others): - Size Paper docs don't take up any disk space (I wouldn't advise trying to use SpInside Mac from the CD-ROM--it's too slow). Of course, the stack doesn't take much shelf space, either :-). - Speed I can flip between pages much more quickly than I can flip around in SpInside Mac, especially if I use little scraps of paper (or pens, more often than not) to mark the sections I need at the moment. Part of this is familiarity--after so many years of programming the Mac, I know IM pretty well, and usually know where to find what I need, and I'm not bad at remembering when there's a tech note about something. - Availability Unless you've got an extra Mac on your desk, it's awfully hard to look up stuff while you're sitting in TMON or MACSBUG... SADE would alleviate ths problem if it were faster, and if buggy programs never scrogged MultiFinder... - Visual Appearance Having everything in Monaco 9 with separate buttons for any illustrations is not my idea of an effective style of presentation. Sticking with my paper IM, -- Amanda Walker InterCon Systems Corporation "Dans la vie y'a des hauts pis des bas, des choses qui sont et d'autres qui ne sont pas." --Lucie Blue Tremblay
mxmora@unix.SRI.COM (Matt Mora) (03/24/90)
In article <1990Mar23.191614.15947@intercon.com> amanda@mermaid.intercon.com (Amanda Walker) writes: > - Speed > > I can flip between pages much more quickly than I can flip around in > SpInside Mac, especially if I use little scraps of paper (or pens, > more often than not) to mark the sections I need at the moment. Part > of this is familiarity--after so many years of programming the Mac, I > know IM pretty well, and usually know where to find what I need, and > I'm not bad at remembering when there's a tech note about something. The best part about Programmers Online companion is that after the routine name is the page number of inside Mac. So if you want to know where in inside mac to look, just type the trap name and Bingo, an instant page number. I also use the Inside mac Da. But the book is so much faster to use. Also have you ever tried to use a da from MacsBug? :-) >-- >Amanda Walker >InterCon Systems Corporation > >"Dans la vie y'a des hauts pis des bas, >des choses qui sont et d'autres qui ne sont pas." > --Lucie Blue Tremblay -- ___________________________________________________________ Matthew Mora SRI International mxmora@unix.sri.com ___________________________________________________________
hammersslammers1@oxy.edu (David J. Harr) (03/24/90)
Since SpInside Mac is causing such a furor because people can't get their hands on it AND because the Tech Notes Stack and Q&A stack are available apple.com, WHY NOT just amke it available for anonymous FTP from apple.com, thereby allowing those who do not have access to a CD-ROM player a chance to get their hands on it. If there is some balatantly obvious reason why this is an incredibly stupid idea, I'm sure someone will come and cut me off at the knees (strictly to ensure that no one is misinformed, mind you), but until that happens, I think this would be a way to make at least a few of the grumblers happy (like me :-)))). David
stoms@castor.ncgia.ucsb.edu (David Stoms) (03/26/90)
In article <84442@tiger.oxy.edu> hammersslammers1@oxy.edu (David J. Harr) writes: >Since SpInside Mac is causing such a furor because people can't get their >hands on it AND because the Tech Notes Stack and Q&A stack are available >apple.com, WHY NOT just amke it available for anonymous FTP from apple.com, >thereby allowing those who do not have access to a CD-ROM player a chance to >get their hands on it. If there is some balatantly obvious reason why this >is an incredibly stupid idea, I'm sure someone will come and cut me off at I think your forgetting something! SpInside Mac is about 16-18 MEGS the last time I checked! Now take a stuffit file that big and _binhex_ it, jeez, your going to be downloading for a long, long, long time. I do agree in principle but its so impractical. Maybe Apple could release the monster through APDA and 800K disks for people without a CD drive (like me). In any case, SpInside Mac isn't the end-all solution to our docmentation problems. Inside Mac needs to be completely written, condensed, reorganized, and re-published on paper. A HC version would be nice too but it can't replace paper because I like leaving my manuals open during a crash without using more than one computer.. Josh.
baumgart@esquire.dpw.com (Steve Baumgarten) (03/27/90)
In article <39765@apple.Apple.COM>, keith@Apple (Keith Rollin) writes: >On the other hand, if we opened up support to everyone, the the big >companies like Claris and MicroSoft feel slighted because we are >helping someone figure how to write an INIT that makes the the >garbage can emit funny noises when you empty it, rather than helping >them on Excel 10.0 or MacWrite III 5.2 v4. I don't think that we're >kowtowing to big corporate pressure, but we have to strive for some >middle ground. Perfectly understandable. And anyway, those of us poor souls who own Microsoft products would much rather you help them than the INIT writers of the world, since they obviously need much more help than they're currently getting. You guys must have a good number of people who do nothing more than full time hand-holding for the programming wizards at Microsoft; imagine where we could be if DTS wasn't there to patiently explain why you shouldn't specifically check for the 68881, or for the presence of a LaserWriter before enabling font scaling. Now if only you could get them to listen to you... -- Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart, Davis Polk & Wardwell | remember, we were way ahead of you." baumgart@esquire.dpw.com | cmcl2!esquire!baumgart | - David Letterman