ianf@nada.kth.se (Ian Feldman) (04/07/90)
In article <35728@cci632.UUCP> ph@cci632.UUCP (Pete Hoch) writes: >Avi Rappoport writes: > >> ...make the first attendee a reduced price and sock it to the second, >> third, etc. That way everyone could send at least one person. > > This is a great idea!!!! For example Apple could charge $500 for the first > attendee from a company, $1500 for the second and $2000 for the third, fourth > etc. It's kind of like a progressive tax. The lower class, (one attendee) > gets a break. The middle class, (two attendees) have the same cost as before > And the upper crust really gets hit for sending more than two people, but > then they have the money, right? I eouldn't know about its greatness. It is certainly contrary to all the common economic wisdom -- the "buy one, get one free" principle while simultaneously succeding in being both undemocratic AND contrary to Apple's interest to attract high-quality, _motivated_ attendees, rather than the I-can-afford-the-$500 crowd. Ie, having a certain threshold automatically weeds out wheat from chaff... --Ian Feldman / ianf@nada.kth.se || uunet!nada.kth.se!ianf / The "I had the bug narrowed down to a subrutine and then I lost all interest" hacker
es2q+@andrew.cmu.edu (Erik Warren Selberg) (04/08/90)
maybe Apple only wants what it terms "High-quality" developers, but if it's criteria is those able to pay gobs of money then they are, IMHO, completely brain dead. High quality comes from innovation and good, clean programming. High MONEY comes from good business sense and a market for the program. Granted high money will come with high quality, but high quality doesn't necessarily mean high money (anyone know if Ray Lau will be there? Something tells me no...). #========##========##========##========*========##========##========##========# # MegaloErik: Loosing contact with VICE 10... Welcome to Andrew! # # ARPA: es2q+@andrew.cmu.edu Fido: 129/107 BBS: Mac @ Night (412) 268-8974 # # GEnie: E.SELBERG Delphi: LORDERIK CIS: 71470,2127 MacList: 6009/1 # #========##========##========##========*========##========##========##========# ...48 hours of continuous study have proven that Elvis is alive and teaching math at CMU.
keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (04/08/90)
In article <4a7WTh_00WB25gdV1X@andrew.cmu.edu> es2q+@andrew.cmu.edu (Erik Warren Selberg) writes: >maybe Apple only wants what it terms "High-quality" developers, but if it's >criteria is those able to pay gobs of money then they are, IMHO, completely >brain dead. High quality comes from innovation and good, clean programming. >High MONEY comes from good business sense and a market for the program. >Granted high money will come with high quality, but high quality doesn't >necessarily mean high money (anyone know if Ray Lau will be there? Something >tells me no...). Erik, What you seem to be objecting to is not that we can't invite everyone to the Developers Conference (or, by extension, allows access to Developer Technical Support to everyone), but rather in the mechanism used. Right now, we use the "those that got it, get more" rule, but a lot of people here seem upset with that. OK. So what criteria do we use? Would you rather that we base invitations to the Developer's conference based on "need to know". Or how nice of a guy you are? Or how long you've been programming on the Mac. Or on a lottery? Yeah, some of these ideas are silly, but I'm serious when I say that I'm interested in your ideas. I'd also like to ask everyone else another question. How does Apple Developer Programs compare with similar organizations in other companies. What kind of Technical Support do IBM, MicroSoft, Digital, HP, NeXT, Sun, Commodore, Atari, etc. give? Do they have phone lines? Do they have an electronic service like AppleLink? Do they have support BB's on other services like CompuServe or MCI? Do they offer of volunteer time on Usenet? Do they have their own developer's conferences? Do they have monthly mailings with technotes, sample code, technical journals, and the like? Do they have hardware discounts? Do they have tools like Phil & Dave's Excellent CD? What else do they do? How well do they perform any or all of those functions? Again, these are not rhetorical questions; I'm serious when I ask this. Also, I'm looking for comparisons between us and a company with a similar installed based of developers. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. --- Developer Technical Support INTERNET: keith@apple.com UUCP: {decwrl, hoptoad, nsc, sun, amdahl}!apple!keith "Argue for your Apple, and sure enough, it's yours" - Keith Rollin, Contusions
dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt) (04/08/90)
In article <4a7WTh_00WB25gdV1X@andrew.cmu.edu> es2q+@andrew.cmu.edu (Erik Warren Selberg) writes: > maybe Apple only wants what it terms "High-quality" developers, but if it's > criteria is those able to pay gobs of money then they are, IMHO, completely > brain dead. Have you checked out the going rate for private-sector tutorials, teach-ins, etc. recently? I receive a lot of flyers from companies hawking "Introductory Excel", "Power Users' tricks in Word", technical seminars and conferences on electromagnetic interference, tutorials on OSI networking, ISDN, and so forth. Most of these run at _least_ $200/day; many highly-technical conferences seem to run $800-$900 for a two-day session. I've read notes to the effect that Apple's cash outflow for this conference will be substantially greater than the fees it takes in. I can well believe it... especially as they're allowing people to sign up on a day-by-day basis (pay for what you want to hear), and yet must rent the facilities for a full five days (or perhaps a full week). I'll be attending this year, on my employer's nickel. It'll be nice to be there, learn good stuff directly from the developers and DTS people, and have the opportunity to ask questions... but I really doubt I'd go if I were paying cash out of my own pocket. Yeah, it'd be nice if the conference was $50/day and everyone could go... but I imagine that it'd be even more of a zoo than it's likely to be, and that Apple would lose even more money, and hence might be unable to justify hosting the affair at all. In my (limited and cynical) experience, it's usually only the Marketing folks who are given permission to host big bashes and lose money in the interest of Customer Relations... the fact that this conference is oriented towards techie-types is somewhat unusual for a money-losing affair. According to the promo mailing I received, developers who attend the conference will be able to pick up their System 7.0 starter-kits and documentation in person. Developers (partners & associates) who don't attend the conference will get the same starter-kits and documentation in the regular monthly mailing. Presumably, people who are not Partners or Associates will be able to order this same material through APDA in a few months. I sympathize very much with people who can't afford to go, or who aren't in a position to be invited to attend (I was in the same position in both respects last year). However, it isn't the end of the world, folks! Please don't declare Apple to be The Great Satan simply because they (as a business) choose to spend their subsidy-money getting information into the hands of people who work for companies that have a track-record in the business of making money. I can think of lots of better reasons to hold Apple over a slow fire than that one! Now that MacWorld can cancel their "N months without an adequate warranty" campaign, maybe we can start one for "N issues of APDAlog without a publicly-available equivalent to Phil&Dave's Excellent CD at a fair and affordable price." -- Dave Platt VOICE: (415) 493-8805 UUCP: ...!{ames,apple,uunet}!coherent!dplatt DOMAIN: dplatt@coherent.com INTERNET: coherent!dplatt@ames.arpa, ...@uunet.uu.net USNAIL: Coherent Thought Inc. 3350 West Bayshore #205 Palo Alto CA 94303
philip@Kermit.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (04/08/90)
In article <52169@coherent.coherent.com>, dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt) writes: > In article <4a7WTh_00WB25gdV1X@andrew.cmu.edu> es2q+@andrew.cmu.edu (Erik Warren Selberg) writes: > > maybe Apple only wants what it terms "High-quality" developers, but if it's > > criteria is those able to pay gobs of money then they are, IMHO, completely > > brain dead. > > Have you checked out the going rate for private-sector tutorials, > teach-ins, etc. recently? I receive a lot of flyers from companies > hawking "Introductory Excel", "Power Users' tricks in Word", technical > seminars and conferences on electromagnetic interference, tutorials on > OSI networking, ISDN, and so forth. Most of these run at _least_ > $200/day; many highly-technical conferences seem to run $800-$900 for a > two-day session. [Lots deleted] Yes, but these guys are presumably out to make a buck - Apple claims they run their conference at a loss as a service to serious developers. How about a positive suggestion, for a change? If some people are REALLY so keen to have a low-cost alternative, why don't they do some costing and see if it's possible? Maybe there are low-cost venues where such an event could be held (e.g., a university, which could offer premises at a low rate in exchange for a few free places). What other costs are there that could be cut? Could someone from Apple comment on what the big-expense items are? The people who WANT this could do worse than think about how it could be made possible. If Apple were offered a workable alternative, could they turn it down? Philip Machanick philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
kaufman@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Marc T. Kaufman) (04/09/90)
In article <52169@coherent.coherent.com> dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt) writes: >I'll be attending this year, on my employer's nickel. It'll be nice to >be there, learn good stuff directly from the developers and DTS people, >and have the opportunity to ask questions... but I really doubt I'd go >if I were paying cash out of my own pocket... I went last year. Learned all about System 7's new features: Line Layout Manager, Printing Toolbox,... spent all the next year trying to figure out how to integrate this great stuff with existing code. No need to worry, since Apple isn't releasing it (yet) anyway. How much of THIS year's conference will be the same? I spent all week listening to Apple's session presenters duck the hard questions, just so I could get the 32-bit quickdraw disk they passed out on Thursday. A week later I got one in the mail. In my opinion, you should go to the conference primarily to get a little 1-on-1 with other developers. Marc Kaufman (kaufman@Neon.stanford.edu)
amanda@mermaid.intercon.com (Amanda Walker) (04/09/90)
In article <1990Apr8.174558.24311@Neon.Stanford.EDU>, kaufman@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Marc T. Kaufman) writes: > In my opinion, you should go > to the conference primarily to get a little 1-on-1 with other developers. It's a good place to do that (since, unlike a trade show, no one is running around dealing with booths and customers). It's also a good place to get a little 1-on-1 discussion with Apple engineers without having to go through The Voice Mail System That Ate Cupertino :-). -- Amanda Walker, InterCon Systems Corporation -- "Y'know, you can't have, like, a light, without a dark to stick it in... You know what I'm sayin'?" --Arlo Guthrie
GROSSPA@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (SPLAT) (04/09/90)
OK Serious question on the Developers Conference. I'll be there with a layover for the weekend following. For someone who has never been to California, what is a fun way to spend a couple of days with a rental car. Good camping in the area?. Ideas?
es2q+@andrew.cmu.edu (Erik Warren Selberg) (04/10/90)
well, in response to what other companies are doing, I'll admit that I'm not all too familiar with most. However, over here at CMU NeXT is doing loads upon loads to give everyone stuff (albiet everyone is a junior or above...). I'm notsure if that would be considered the same thing, though. in dealing with whom to let into developers' conferences, I'd do this: admit everyone, and hold it in different spots across the country (East, West, & Central would be good). To me, using the rule "Whoever has it gets more" puts all the upcoming developers (such as college bums like myself) out to dry, which to my knowledge is the exact opposite of what Apple was founded on. I have lots of neat ideas for programs I'd like to do (and I can only think of one of them as a game), but because I don't have the resources available to I really can't implement them (I'm working with LSP on an SE w/ 1M & 20M HD), so I do small stuff like mindless online shareware games for Mac BBS systems. What I think would be a good move on Apple's part is to make life _much_ easier for new developers. Don't charge bundles for MPW & updates, make developers' conferences open and accessable to all, do some more at universities(I don't know quite what you are doing at universities, just CMU, but just from that I think you should be doing more). I think you're doing a good job now, but you're pushing big companies that sell software in big boxes. I'd like to see you really help out the rookies, which I would undoubtably think help you guys out even more, as that's where loads of innovation comes from. #========##========##========##========*========##========##========##========# # MegaloErik: Loosing contact with VICE 10... Welcome to Andrew! # # ARPA: es2q+@andrew.cmu.edu Fido: 129/107 BBS: Mac @ Night (412) 268-8974 # # GEnie: E.SELBERG Delphi: LORDERIK CIS: 71470,2127 MacList: 6009/1 # #========##========##========##========*========##========##========##========# ...48 hours of continuous study have proven that Elvis is alive and teaching math at CMU.
es2q+@andrew.cmu.edu (Erik Warren Selberg) (04/10/90)
<in reply to what Dave said about charging high prices for a "losing affair", but not quoted as Andrew's VUI doesn't, or as I don't know how yet> I fail to see how any developers' conference can be a lose on Apple's part. Granted, they give up the gobs of money hiring people & renting places for it, but think about what they're doing. They're giving people info on how to make software & hardware accessories for the Mac, which will further the attractiveness of the Mac & thus people will buy more. And as you said, it's awesome consumer relations, because if all us techies say Apple is cool, then the clueless ones will usually take out advice. So I definately would not call it a money-losing project. The other thing I wanted to mention: I know about the "Intro to Word" and like seminars, and yes, they do cost. However, the people who run the stuff are raking it in, and the people who spend the money and go can afford the $800 talking manual. Last summer I did some free-lance consulting for some local businesses for around $20-$30 and hour, and they were quite happy to shell it out to have me set up their Macs and regurgitate the WriteNow and SuperPaint manuals. Being lazy and not reading manuals is just being fodder for people who know what they're doing (much like people who can't change a spare tire). But I think that developers are a bit different... instead of telling people how to change a spare, you're teaching people how to make cars and how they work -- all the tricky and in-depth stuff. This should be made open to all the rookies, because if they aren't then all the wizards ane going to be pushing daisies in 50 years and people will be wonderinghow to copy to an offscreen bitmap. #========##========##========##========*========##========##========##========# # MegaloErik: Loosing contact with VICE 10... Welcome to Andrew! # # ARPA: es2q+@andrew.cmu.edu Fido: 129/107 BBS: Mac @ Night (412) 268-8974 # # GEnie: E.SELBERG Delphi: LORDERIK CIS: 71470,2127 MacList: 6009/1 # #========##========##========##========*========##========##========##========# ...48 hours of continuous study have proven that Elvis is alive and teaching math at CMU.
wiechman@athos.rutgers.edu (NightMeower) (04/10/90)
In article <wa8FQIm00WB3AT6lBb@andrew.cmu.edu> es2q+@andrew.cmu.edu (Erik Warren Selberg) writes: > in dealing with whom to let into developers' conferences, I'd do this: admit > everyone, and hold it in different spots across the country (East, West, & > Central would be good). To me, using the rule "Whoever has it gets more" > puts all the upcoming developers (such as college bums like myself) out to > dry, which to my knowledge is the exact opposite of what Apple was founded on. Last year, when I was at the conference I was told that many of the Apple employees were volunteering there time to help make the conference a good and productive time. If you were to move the conference around the US or the world then much of the support would disappear. After all, San Jose is virtually in Apple's backyard. > I have lots of neat ideas for programs I'd like to do (and I can only think of > one of them as a game), but because I don't have the resources available to > I really can't implement them (I'm working with LSP on an SE w/ 1M & 20M HD), > so I do small stuff like mindless online shareware games for Mac BBS systems. > Like many myself included, you probably have a lot of great ideas but not enough time in one hundred lifetimes to do all of them ;-) Kevin -- =========================================================================== Kevin S. Wiechmann arpa: wiechman@rutgers.rutgers.edu This is only a test... for the next sixty seconds...
ph@cci632.UUCP (Pete Hoch) (04/11/90)
ianf@nada.kth.se (Ian Feldman) writes: :ph@cci632.UUCP (Pete Hoch) writes: :>Avi Rappoport writes: :> :>> ...make the first attendee a reduced price and sock it to the second, :>> third, etc. That way everyone could send at least one person. :> :> This is a great idea!!!! For example Apple could charge $500 for the first :> attendee from a company, $1500 for the second and $2000 for the third, :> ... : : I eouldn't know about its greatness. It is certainly contrary to all : the common economic wisdom -- the "buy one, get one free" principle while : simultaneously succeding in being both undemocratic AND contrary to : Apple's interest to attract high-quality, _motivated_ attendees, rather : than the I-can-afford-the-$500 crowd. Ie, having a certain threshold : automatically weeds out wheat from chaff... Sorry, I don't know where my head was. I guess I have been working on my taxes too long and started to think that the tax system made economic sence instead of economic disaster. I now will completely reverse myself and sugest that the first attendee be charged $2000, and then charge $1000 for the next four attendees. Four $5000 your company can send up to ten people. How is that for a sale?? Pete Hoch
es2q+@andrew.cmu.edu (Erik Warren Selberg) (04/11/90)
[quotes omitted because I haven't figured out how to not omit them] Well, I can see where moving it around would lose something, and you're right, San Jose is Apple's backyard.... but for starving college students in Pittsburgh, a $300 round trip is quite hefty (esp. if I get to pay the leg when I get there!). But it would be nice if they could more if out once in a while. #========##========##========##========*========##========##========##========# # MegaloErik: Loosing contact with VICE 10... Welcome to Andrew! # # ARPA: es2q+@andrew.cmu.edu Fido: 129/107 BBS: Mac @ Night (412) 268-8974 # # GEnie: E.SELBERG Delphi: LORDERIK CIS: 71470,2127 MacList: 6009/1 # #========##========##========##========*========##========##========##========# ...48 hours of continuous study have proven that Elvis is alive and teaching math at CMU.
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (04/12/90)
In article <Ua8d=8O00WB68zkkpx@andrew.cmu.edu>, es2q+@andrew.cmu.edu (Erik Warren Selberg) writes... >[quotes omitted because I haven't figured out how to not omit them] > >Well, I can see where moving it around would lose something, and you're right, >San Jose is Apple's backyard.... but for starving college students in >Pittsburgh, a $300 round trip is quite hefty (esp. if I get to pay the leg >when I get there!). But it would be nice if they could more if out once in >a while. C'mon folks: this _is_ the Developers Conference we're talking about. It's a way cool extravanganza where you get to meet and greet the Apple tech high and mighty, eat good food, learn cool non-disclosure stuff, and in general learn enough to help your projects a great deal. Or at least that's what people who've been have told me. I've never attended. But that's OK by me; when it's worth it to me, I will. Apple doesn't _need_ to provide this kind of support to every starving college student -- or starving wage slave -- with a great programming idea. And they can't. It's just not realistic. I think mini-developers conferences sound like a great idea, but I'm not too sure how practical that is either. For my money I'd like to see Apple beef up its non-human developer support: revise Inside Mac and lower APDA prices on tech docs and tools (no, not MPW, I've heard already why that's so expensive). That would go a long way to helping us 'poor folk' until we can afford the DC. Robert ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================