anthonjw@clutx.clarkson.edu (Jason W. Anthony) (04/11/90)
I've been doing some simple programming on the Mac, but now I want to get a little more serious :-). I am trying to find out which prototyping tool is the best to use. I've heard of Prototyper and AppMaker. I've used Prototyper 2.0 and to be honest, things didn't go well! I would get system crashes, things disappearing etc. I know there are newer versions: does anyone know if they are any better?+ How's AppMaker? Also, what exactly is MacApp? Is it just a series of objects, or does it have facilities similar to Prototyper for making windows, alerts, etc.? And is the Think Class Library the same sort of thing? (I'm still waiting for my update...) I will be using Think Pascal 3.0 and would like to use something that takes advatages of Object Oriented stuff. Any suggestions or comments would be appreicated. I'll summarize if there's interest. Thanx very much! ~ *************************************************************************** * Jason W. Anthony * Bitnet | anthonjw@clutx.clarkson.edu * * Computer Engineering * Clarkson University * ***************************************************************************
marcos@netcom.UUCP (Marcos H. Woehrmann) (04/11/90)
In article <1990Apr11.010338.23342@sun.soe.clarkson.edu>, anthonjw@clutx.clarkson.edu (Jason W. Anthony) writes: > I've heard of Prototyper and AppMaker. I've used Prototyper 2.0 and to > be honest, things didn't go well! I would get system crashes, things > disappearing etc. I know there are newer versions: does anyone know if > they are any better?+ How's AppMaker? > I've been using Prototyper 2.1 for about 6 months (4 programs). I'm not real pleased with it but haven't experienced any system crashes, etc. The biggest problem I have is that it generates code which does not act like it's supposed to (for example, Prototyper will let you change the font of text items in Dialogs, but the code it generates doesn't work). Also it does not generate what I consider "clean" code, constants which really should be #defines are just left inline, etc. On the other hand it handles popup menus, alerts, menus, checkboxes, and most other stuff correctly. Would I buy it again if given the choice? Not without looking at AppMaker first. marcos -- Marcos H. Woehrmann {claris|apple}!netcom!marcos or marcos@netcom "Apple workers sympathetic to their shunted-aside boss, Jean-Louise Gasee, protested outside a company building with black berets, clever signs, and a brief march, then adjourned to a nearby beer bust." - SJ Mercury 02/10/90
anders@penguin (Anders Wallgren) (04/11/90)
At the risk of sounding cynical, I have yet to find a better prototyping tool than my trusty pencil and pad of graph paper... The problem with AppMaker/ProtoTyper, aside from their growing pains, is the truth-maintenance problem - if you decide to tweak the code it produces, you are screwed if you want to make additions or changes with the prototyping tool - it doesn't know about the changes you've made in the code, and when it spins off a new version of source for you, you've got to incorporate it back into your customized version. Too much hassle for me, anyway. I've seen some signs that this issue is being addressed - change the code, and your prototype changes to reflect the modification, and vice-versa, but this was a on a DecStation, so I doubt there's anything available on the Mac yet. Until such a time, I do my prototyping in my head and on paper, and then I use MacApp and ViewEdit, which usually gets the job done, albeit slowly. anders
ech@cbnewsk.ATT.COM (ned.horvath) (04/12/90)
From article <1990Apr11.010338.23342@sun.soe.clarkson.edu>, by anthonjw@clutx.clarkson.edu (Jason W. Anthony): ... > I've heard of Prototyper and AppMaker... > be honest, things didn't go well! I would get system crashes, things > disappearing etc. I know there are newer versions: does anyone know if > they are any better?+ How's AppMaker? ... > Also, what exactly is MacApp?... > And is the Think Class Library the same sort of thing?... > waiting for my update...) ... > I will be using Think Pascal 3.0... MacApp is a single-inheritance class library that provides enough "stuff" for a canonical Mac-ish application. You need Apple's MPW and either Object Pascal or C++ to use it. It's been under development by geniuses for something like 5 years. (Stop blushing, Larry.) There's a MacApp Developer's Association (MADA) which has Apple's moral support but is otherwise independent, that provides mutual comfort and assistance, and sells add-on class libraries. The Think Class Library (TCL) is a bit more modest, but basically the same thing. The resemblance is, well, pretty damned close. It's noteworthy that the Think extentions to C are scarcely C++, but are the moral equivalent of the Object Pascal extentions to pascal. I haven't seen Think Pascal 3.0, but the TCL is billed as "the same," and I'd assume that the language is (more or less) identical to Object pascal. I'm sure Rich will clarify if I've gotten it wrong... I've had AppMaker 1.1 for a week or so (I've also used Prototyper 2.0). It is, in a word, great. But I'll post another article about that: this program needs to be promoted! =Ned Horvath=
hpoppe@ncar.ucar.edu (Herb Poppe) (04/13/90)
In article <2387@cbnewsk.ATT.COM> ech@cbnewsk.ATT.COM (ned.horvath) writes: > I've had AppMaker 1.1 for a week or so (I've also used Prototyper 2.0). > It is, in a word, great. But I'll post another article about that: this > program needs to be promoted! There is a demo version of ProtoTyper; is there a demo version of AppMaker? Herb Poppe NCAR hpoppe@ncar.ucar.edu 1850 Table Mesa Drive Boulder, CO 80307-3000 (303) 497-1296
philip@Kermit.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (04/13/90)
In article <2387@cbnewsk.ATT.COM>, ech@cbnewsk.ATT.COM (ned.horvath) writes: > MacApp is a single-inheritance class library that provides enough > "stuff" for a canonical Mac-ish application. You need Apple's MPW > and either Object Pascal or C++ to use it... Now also supported by Think Pascal 3 (has anyone tried it yet)? Philip Machanick philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
rmh@apple.com (Rick Holzgrafe) (04/13/90)
I often use HyperCard for my prototyping. It has drawbacks of course: it
doesn't write any code for you, it doesn't usually look *exactly* like
what you'll eventually build, it doesn't respond as quickly as the real
thing will to user input, you're limited to the small window size, and a
number of standard Mac effects are not directly available (pop-up menus,
selection from a scrolling list, etc.).
However - mostly these don't bother me too much. The effects that aren't
"directly" available can be faked without too much effort, once you're
familiar with HyperTalk and have worked up a bag of tricks to reach into.
And while it's slow and may not look exactly like the real thing, that can
be lived with. For me the big wins are, one, that it looks *enough* like
the real thing for me to see whether a layout is too crowded, a list too
short, or a group of controls in need of some unifying graphics; two, I
can make the buttons and whatnot "really work", enough to play with the
interface and check its "feel"; and three, it's incredibly trivial to
re-arrange things to try different layouts. Usually I'll do several, using
"Copy Card" to duplicate the first successful one and making incremental
changes to the copies.
Not perfect, but useful.
==========================================================================
Rick Holzgrafe | {sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual}!apple!rmh
Software Engineer | AppleLink HOLZGRAFE1 rmh@apple.com
Apple Computer, Inc. | "All opinions expressed are mine, and do
20525 Mariani Ave. MS: 77-A | not necessarily represent those of my
Cupertino, CA 95014 | employer, Apple Computer Inc."minow@mountn.dec.com (Martin Minow) (04/13/90)
In article <1990Apr11.010338.23342@sun.soe.clarkson.edu>,
anthonjw@clutx.clarkson.edu (Jason W. Anthony) asks about Prototyper
and AppMaker.
I haven't used either, but I've seen some demos of AppMaker (done by
Seth Bowers, its developer) and was impressed. It generates reasonable
code sequences (unlike Prototyper) and the author seems very careful
about the way he goes about doing things.
The latest version (possibly not out yet, but Bowers demo'ed it to
the BCS Tech Group last month) works with Think C classes.
He offers a demo disk for $5 that you might find worthwhile.
Martin Minow
minow@thundr.enet.dec.com
The above does not represent the position of Digital Equipment Corporation