maarten@fwi.uva.nl (Maarten Carels) (07/23/90)
In comp.sys.mac.programmer I wrote (on July 13th): In writing a deskaccessory I came upon a question about Macintosh user interface that the bible (IM) and the user interface book didn't answer. The DA is supposed to lock up the mac until the correct password has been typed. It displays a large modal dialog, stating that this mac can't be used until the correct password has been typed. A TextEdit field is used to enter the password (with bullets replacing the characters, so no-one can read the password). When no characters have been entered, the OK button is dimmed (greyed out). What I don't know is whether the outline of the OK button should - remain as normal (a black line around the button) - be greyed out as well (so, a gray line around the button) - should be removed from the dialog (so, no line around the button) Perhaps one of the netguru's could enlighten me on this? Please reply by mail, I'll summarize to the net. --maarten Below the reactions I've got. All netters who answered, many thanks. The only problem left to me (and possibly others) is that all three possibilities have had some 'votes', so I still can't decide what is the right thing to do at outlines for a default button. Perhaps someone at Apple (Larry? Mark? anyone else?) could provide me (and the net) with some Apple approved way? -------------- From: "ANTHONY,ROBERT" <gft_robert@gsbvxa.uchicago.edu> I ran into this problem a while ago myself. I got various suggestions, ranging from removing the outline to graying it out. Apple, in their products often leaves it black, but I don't think that's an official endorsement. I decided to gray it out but leave it visible. -------------- From: jackiw@cs.swarthmore.edu (Nick Jackiw) There are people who will tell you to gray the outline. They are wrong. The outline specifically means: "what happens when you hit return." In a dialog with a disabled default button, nothing happens when you hit return. Ergo, no outline. Gray'd outlines don't look that good, either. Most applications leave the black outline up, but I attribute this to the sloth of the programmer. -------------- From: zben@umd5.umd.edu (Ben Cranston) I've always dimmed the entire button. Here is some code, patched in as a dialog "user it", that does it. ... Code to dim outline deleted ... -------------- From: pasek@c10sd3.StPaul.NCR.COM First, the "button" (in my mind) INCLUDES the outline, so if the "button is dimmed", the ENTIRE button is dimmed.....but, see below...... Now....for an example (I'm not saying it's right), take a look at the AppleShare Workstation driver in the Chooser. The "OK" text is grayed, the normal (1-pixel wide) outline is black, and the "default" (thick) outline is also grayed. -------------- From: sonenbli@oxy.edu (Andrew D. Sonenblick) I would suggest a grayed out outline... -------------- From: han@apple.COM (Byron Han, Project Scapegoat) I don't believe that the user interface thought police have come up with an official policy statement. This is simply my own humble opinion (TISMOHO) Removing the outline is very visually distracting and distressing. Having user interface items appear and disappear should be done rarely and only in special situations (like dyanamic dialogs where entire sets of items are appended and removed from a dialog - see CommToolbox tool selection/configuration dialogs for an example) Greying out the outline may seem to be the de jure correct thing to do. Most users, however, are used to the useritem not greying out and therefore this may indeed be the de facto correct thing to do. Another option, which the Advanced Software Concepts' TCPack Connection Tool uses, is to move the outline to reflect the current default button. For example, if there is an OK and Cancel button, and an associated editText item, the Cancel button is outlined if there is no text entered, the OK button is hilighted if there is text entered. I don't know if this made it into the production software but I personally found it rather distracting. Sorry I don't have a definitive answer. The subleties of human interface design often lacks definitive answers. This is not an official Apple policy statement. I have no connection with ASC except as a beta tester of TCPack. -------------- From: Nick Lindridge <comrncl@hatfield.ac.uk> Hi, Reading your news article about dimming buttons in dialog boxes, I remember reading, I think in Macintosh Revealed, that drawing a grey border would be neat, although something that not many people would do. I'm writing a Mac application at the moment, and intended to try grey borders too. I don't know what they look like yet, but my guess is that they would look better than black borders do. Removing the outline would be wrong because you would be then suggesting that deleting all characters no longer makes OK the default button. It still is, its just that you can't choose it right now, so it should be grey. Try it and see, and see what other users think too is probably the best policy. Good luck, -------------- From: jgro@apldbio.com (Jeremy Grodberg) I believe the correct answer is that the border stays unchanged. If an alert box comes up in front of the dialog (i.e. the dialog is no longer the "active" window), then the border gets greyed. Apple has never suggested removing or greying the border at any other time, so it's a decent bet that you should just leave it. Certainly everyone else leaves it. I have asked the guys at Apple, and will post their response, if the get one. Jeremy Grodberg -- In real life: Maarten Carels Computer Science Department University of Amsterdam email: maarten@fwi.uva.nl