hsieh@rscene.hac.com (Julia Hsieh) (11/22/90)
I just called APDA up to get a version of MacsBugs that will run on my Mac IIfx. I am told that version 6.1, the only version that Apple is shipping is NOT fx compatible. I've had my fx for almost 4 months and Apple STILL doesn't have a version of MacsBugs that won't hang my system? Does anyone have a low level debugger that will run on the fx that has multiple monitors and with 32 bit QuickDraw (and a SuperMac Spectrum III card running in millions of colors mode)? Also, any hints as to where I can find documentation on 32 bit QuickDraw would be appreciated. I have ordered the first issue to d e v e l o p, now i just have to wait until they can find one to send to me. Maybe I should return my Mac's. They aren't quite worth the trouble. How can Apple afford to not support their users? I'm not going to be justifying the purchase of any new Mac's to my employer or friends in the near future after this. ---------------------------------------------------------------- julia hsieh My opinions are not intended to reflect hsieh@rscene.hac.com those of Hughes Aircraft Company. ----------------------------------------------------------------
das@Apple.COM (David Shayer) (11/22/90)
In article <11885@hacgate.UUCP> hsieh@rscene.hac.com (Julia Hsieh) writes: > >I just called APDA up to get a version of MacsBugs that will run >on my Mac IIfx. I am told that version 6.1, the only version that >Apple is shipping is NOT fx compatible. I've had my fx for almost >4 months and Apple STILL doesn't have a version of MacsBugs that won't >hang my system? > >Does anyone have a low level debugger that will run on the fx that >has multiple monitors and with 32 bit QuickDraw (and a SuperMac Spectrum >III card running in millions of colors mode)? Version 6.2b1 of Macsbug, which works fine on a IIfx, is on the latest developer's CD, The Night of the Living Disc. This CD was mailed out to all registered developers more than a month ago. I agree it should have been made available when the IIfx first shipped. I think that if you had linked DTS instead of APDA, they would have sent the new Macsbug to you. David
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (11/22/90)
----- In article <11885@hacgate.UUCP>, hsieh@rscene.hac.com (Julia Hsieh) writes... > >I just called APDA up to get a version of MacsBugs that will run >on my Mac IIfx. I am told that version 6.1, the only version that >Apple is shipping is NOT fx compatible. I've had my fx for almost >4 months and Apple STILL doesn't have a version of MacsBugs that won't >hang my system? > >Does anyone have a low level debugger that will run on the fx that >has multiple monitors and with 32 bit QuickDraw (and a SuperMac Spectrum >III card running in millions of colors mode)? You might give ICOM Simulations (Wheeling, IL) a call and ask them about their debugger TMON. It might work. I'm pretty sure that there are later (beta) versions of MacsBug than 6.1. > >Also, any hints as to where I can find documentation on 32 bit QuickDraw >would be appreciated. Try ftp'ing anonymously to apple.com. I think there are 32 bit QD docs there. >Maybe I should return my Mac's. They aren't quite worth the trouble. You are VERY easily discouraged. Perhaps indeed you should, since learning to program the Mac is not entirely easy and you may encounter other difficulties in the future. > >How can Apple afford to not support their users? I'm not going to be >justifying the purchase of any new Mac's to my employer or friends in >the near future after this. > Let me get this straight: the MacsBug APDA is selling isn't IIfx compatible, you haven't yet been able to get 32 bit QD docs, and d e v e l o p hasn't started your subscription yet, and you say Apple doesn't support developers? Sheesh. Try this: 1) Extensive FREE support from Apple DTS and other Apple folk via this very newsgroup. Oftentimes direct from the people who write the system software, MacApp, etc. No charge. 2) tech note subscription from APDA (or download it from comp.binaries.mac or ftp it from apple.com). $25 or no charge. 3) Essentials/Tools/Objects for MPW users is a quarterly CD-ROM subscription to all MPW products as well as many alpha and beta tools, etc. $1000 starter fee if you have not MPW things; $300 a year if you have them all. 4) d e v e l o p magazine, an excellent resource including a CD-ROM chock-a-block full of good stuff. $30/year. 5) Apple Partners: receive discounts on equipment, direct access to DTS, developer materials, etc. $600/year if you qualify. 6) Apple Associates: all of the above except direct DTS access. $350/year if you qualify. So, if you're just a hobbyist, then items number 1,2 and 4 should suffice and are quite inexpensive. If you're pro or work for a company, check out 3 or 5 or 6. But don't complain that Apple doesn't support developers. Robert >---------------------------------------------------------------- >julia hsieh My opinions are not intended to reflect >hsieh@rscene.hac.com those of Hughes Aircraft Company. >---------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
time@tbomb.ice.com (Tim Endres) (11/25/90)
In article <11885@hacgate.UUCP>, hsieh@rscene.hac.com (Julia Hsieh) writes: > Maybe I should return my Mac's. They aren't quite worth the trouble. Feel free. > How can Apple afford to not support their users? I'm not going to be > justifying the purchase of any new Mac's to my employer or friends in > the near future after this. You are asking for developer level support for end users. Not a good strategy. A relatively small percentage of *users* use MacsBug. As a developer, you would have received the MacsBug you required by mail long ago. Further, you would have CD's full of the essential tools you need to develop for the Macintosh. All for only $350 per year, it is an affordable option. If you can not afford to be a certified developer, then I suggest you become good friends with one. Asking Apple to support end users as though they were developers is the wrong approach for all parties concerned. As for your specific case, you could ask the net, ask a dealer, link MacDTS, or ask a friend. tim. ------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Endres | time@ice.com ICE Engineering | uunet!ice.com!time 8840 Main Street | Whitmore Lake MI. 48189 | (313) 449 8288
bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre) (12/06/90)
I just want to point out two things: * Links/Emails sent to MacDTS by unregistered developers currently produce a form letter asking for verification as an Apple Partner/Associate. Thus, if you aren't one of them, you won't get an answer. * APDA (supposedly the Apple Program Developers' Association) is supremely un-technically oriented. They don't sell the current versions of software (Macsbug), but do sell ridiculously outdated items that no longer reflect reality (Multifinder documentation). Additionally, asking an APDA clerk will produce random answers. The clerks have no idea what they are talking about. No one you can talk to there has any technical clue. I have heard of them telling a developer that they didn't carry a certain item. Yes, they were absolutely sure. Of course, when asked about the availability of that same item -- mentioned by part number -- they said, sure, they had plenty of them. Mind you, one you do become a registered developer, the situation changes drastically. Apple tries hard to give you plenty of stuff, even to the point of sending out stuff that probly shoulda been debugged for a few more days. And is there anyone out there who believes that the current line of technical documentation is easy-to-use, up-to-date, or even merely ADEQUATE? If so, have you ever read it or tried to use it? bill coderre now an apple employee. but most certainly not a spokesperson
time@tbomb.ice.com (Tim Endres) (12/06/90)
In article <14550@crdgw1.crd.ge.com>, darweesh@zephyrus.crd.ge.com (Michael Darweesh) writes: > I truly feel sorry for the begining Mac developers who don't have access to > the Internet. Without comp.sys.mac.programmer, I would never have continued > trying to program my Mac. > I have always gotten better response and better answers from c.s.m.p! I am a certified developer, but find I rarely use MacDTS. When I do, I often get a better answer from the net sooner. I think you should take a look at the support offered by companies like IBM, DEC, and Sun, and compare their support prices, and I think you will find Apple to be a very strong competitor. I agree that the small independent developer has a strong disadvantage, but they always have. Thank god for Usenet, eh? tim. ------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Endres | time@ice.com ICE Engineering | uunet!ice.com!time 8840 Main Street | Whitmore Lake MI. 48189 | (313) 449 8288
darweesh@zephyrus.crd.ge.com (Michael Darweesh) (12/06/90)
Time for some opinions: The Bad: Apple's non-registered developer support sucks!!! If you are not a registered developer, you basically have to struggle to find all of the info out by yourself or buy APDA documentation and pray that it's up-to-date. Looking at the MacDTS sample source code is a good thing to do, but it doesn't show up at apple.com for a while and if you don't have ftp access, you're not gonna be able to get it very easily at all. Same with the tech notes and human interface notes. When you do get you hands on the documentation, you have to hope that its good. I think Inside Macintosh and the Tech Notes are reasonably good, but the supplemental sound manager documentation (for example) was pretty bad. How am I supposed to be able to make enough money to become an official developer if I can't debug my Mac program in the first place due to lack of technical support? Good: People like "-Phil" (Shapiro-from Think,makers of Think C and Pascal). I hope he gets paid for all of the time he puts into answering developer questions. Some random people from Apple. Sometimes one or two will spend some significant time answering questions via this Bboard even though it is rumored that they must do it "on their own time". I truly feel sorry for the begining Mac developers who don't have access to the Internet. Without comp.sys.mac.programmer, I would never have continued trying to program my Mac. Enough with that thread for me. I could go on and on, but no... -Mike Darweesh weesh@crd.ge.com
ksand@Apple.COM (Kent Sandvik) (12/06/90)
In article <14550@crdgw1.crd.ge.com> darweesh@zephyrus.crd.ge.com (Michael Darweesh) writes: >Looking at the MacDTS sample source code is a good thing to do, but it doesn't >show up at apple.com for a while and if you don't have ftp access, you're >not gonna be able to get it very easily at all. Same with the tech notes and >human interface notes. APDA sells the MacDTS sample source code, you could even get it in Australia (!). >How am I supposed to be able to make enough money to become an official >developer if I can't debug my Mac program in the first place due to lack >of technical support? I don't want to sound picky or arrogant, but good products sell. >Some random people from Apple. Sometimes one or two will spend some significant >time answering questions via this Bboard even though it is rumored that they >must do it "on their own time". The 'cat /etc/passwd | wc -l' on this machine showed 1455 entries, and that's only one of the machines on the network. A lot of Apple people read and answer entries, the problem is time and resources. Many of us are busy finishing System 7 just now, so there's not much time left for other work. >I truly feel sorry for the begining Mac developers who don't have access to >the Internet. Without comp.sys.mac.programmer, I would never have continued >trying to program my Mac. A lot of the early UNIX revolution was also due to the network culture! I personally think that anyone with brains, a Mac and access to IM and a development environment is able to produce code. But a network/BBs with people discussing programming issues sure helps. >Enough with that thread for me. I could go on and on, but no... I think most of us at Apple are open for criticism. We certainly could do better. Then again how many computer companies have a dedicated developer services group? In most places this department would be considered just a waste of money, brain and time. I know that many of you would like to have the same service level as registered developers. Back at Apple Australia we always had the pressure to provide the same service to non-registered as to registered ones. It usually helped to think, that the registered developers/companies struggled with loans and payments, and if the product did not hit the street some programmers could become jobless, or loose their homes... That way it was quite easy to prioritize the registered ones. Then again it does not mean to forget the rest. Regards, Kent Sandvik -- Kent Sandvik, Apple Computer Inc, Developer Technical Support NET:ksand@apple.com, AppleLink: KSAND DISCLAIMER: Private mumbo-jumbo Zippy says: "With C++ we now do have the possibilities to inherit dangling pointer problems"
mxmora@unix.SRI.COM (Matt Mora) (12/07/90)
In article <14550@crdgw1.crd.ge.com> darweesh@zephyrus.crd.ge.com (Michael Darweesh) writes: >People like "-Phil" (Shapiro-from Think,makers of Think C and Pascal). >I hope he gets paid for all of the time he puts into answering developer >questions. I doubt that he gets paid for his time on the net. Actualy his Boss(es) probably look down on him for wasting his time chatting on the net. I haven't heard much from Rich latley. Its just like upper management not to value the true worth of what Rich and Phil do here on the net. So if you like what they do (and this goes for the folks at Apple also) write a note of thanks and send it to them or the bosses. I'm sure it will help when it comes time for their reveiws. :-) I would like to publicly thank all you who offer support for your companies products on the net, dispite all the flack that jOn mAtOUsEk has been getting in comp.sys.mac.apps about NISUS. -- ___________________________________________________________ Matthew Mora | my Mac Matt_Mora@sri.com SRI International | my unix mxmora@unix.sri.com ___________________________________________________________
Invader@cup.portal.com (Michael K Donegan) (12/08/90)
All you guys whining about how Apple doesn't give support should have to develop Windows programs for eternity. Apple does the best it can under trying circumstances, IMHO. Why should they give free support to anyone who wants it? They are a business, not a benevolent society. Sure, guys out there writing shareware and doing Mac consulting help sell Macs, but there are a lot of registered developers, probably more than Apple can handle anyway. But, for a bad time, try to get support while programming for Windows. You get to pay big bucks for absolutely nothing. At least you get some honest effort for your money, a lot of useful software, etc. From Microsoft, you get junk mail offering to sell you more crap. mkd
Chris.Gehlker@p12.f56.n114.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Gehlker) (12/08/90)
> And is there anyone out there who believes that the current line of > technical documentation is easy-to-use, up-to-date, or even merely > ADEQUATE? If so, have you ever read it or tried to use it? Yeah I think the Apple Docs and Mac DTS are pretty good. I didn't always think so. Then a company I work for asked my to help some guy port some code I'd written for them to Windows. I got exposed a little to the MicroSoft Docs and their Tech support. I don't bitch about Apple any more. -- Uucp: ...{gatech,ames,rutgers}!ncar!asuvax!stjhmc!56.12!Chris.Gehlker Internet: Chris.Gehlker@p12.f56.n114.z1.fidonet.org
sabbagh@acf5.NYU.EDU (sabbagh) (12/09/90)
In article <31734.2760E203@stjhmc.fidonet.org> Chris.Gehlker@p12.f56.n114.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Gehlker) writes: >> And is there anyone out there who believes that the current line of >> technical documentation is easy-to-use, up-to-date, or even merely >> ADEQUATE? If so, have you ever read it or tried to use it? > >Yeah I think the Apple Docs and Mac DTS are pretty good. I didn't >always think so. Then a company I work for asked my to help some >guy port some code I'd written for them to Windows. I got exposed a >little to the MicroSoft Docs and their Tech support. I don't bitch >about Apple any more. Amen! I have been following this thread (with one eye open :-)). I am amazed at the complaints about Apple developer support. Have any of you programmed computers in the real world? (e.g. Unix, DEC, IBM, SGI). You would be astonished at the quality of support. I am doing my dissertation work on an SGI Personal Iris workstation. It runs Unix (yeah, right). There are two accepted meanings of Unix: AT&T and Berkeley. This is neither and its both! Call for support; you'll be lucky if they get back to you within 3 days; and this is for a systems crash! The only technical support (i.e., for using their graphics library) is by reading comp.sys.sgi. Let's face it: PROGRAMMING THE MAC IS HARD. No amount of hand-holding by Apple will make this less true. This, coupled with Apple's high standards is the major reason why new systems releases take longer than what the market is used to. Frankly, while most people complain about things not running when new Systems come out, I am amazed at how well everything holds together. Sure, that little cdev you uploaded from Podunk BBS may cause the system to crash, but Word, Excel, and other important programs still work. Hadil G. Sabbagh E-mail: sabbagh@cs.nyu.edu Voice: (212) 998-3125 Snail: Courant Institute of Math. Sci. 251 Mercer St. New York,NY 10012 "There's a difference between being hungry and being on a diet." - Commentary about John Cougar Mellenkamp. Disclaimer: This is not a disclaimer. P.S. I can't wait to see the faces of "IBM PC programmers" when they really try to write Windows applications! There's a whole new world waiting for Mac programmers!
chou@cs.washington.edu (Pai Chou) (12/10/90)
In article <14550@crdgw1.crd.ge.com> darweesh@zephyrus.crd.ge.com (Michael Darweesh) writes: >Apple's non-registered developer support sucks!!! > >If you are not a registered developer, you basically have to struggle to >find all of the info out by yourself or buy APDA documentation and pray that >it's up-to-date. >... >When you do get you hands on the documentation, you have to hope that its >good. I think Inside Macintosh and the Tech Notes are reasonably good, but >the supplemental sound manager documentation (for example) was pretty bad. I agree. Also, they have pretty bad support for a lot of the international system software (except Japanese). I ordered the Taiwanese OS from them over a year ago. They were selling only version 5.0 while 6.0.3 had been available before that time. It came with a note, "The documentation is not ready at this time; it will be mailed to you when it becomes available." They never mailed it to me, because they don't sell it any more (they put it on the DEVELOP CD ROM). Then I bought the Script Manager's package which was also pretty bad. It had two very outdated OS's (KanjiTalk and Arabic). Pai Chou