Kling.UCI-20B%rand-relay@sri-unix.UUCP (11/29/83)
From: Rob-Kling <Kling.UCI-20B@rand-relay>
Several weeks ago I inquired about the similarities of FinalWord with
EMACS+SCRIBE since I'm trying to set up consistent packages on a
DEC20 and an IBMPC.
I want to be able to move the same document back and forth between
both machines.
(I currently use Multimate on the PC which is nice for
letters and memos but clearly is not a candidate
since no version exists for the DEC20's and never will.)
It seems clear to me that Mince+Scribble is the closest match
to EMACS+SCRIBE. The main limitations seems to be
that Mince+Scribble are nether evolving nor fully
supported. Since TFW "evolved" from Mince+Scribble, I wonder why
the designers altered it so as to make
the interface that WAS compatable with EMACS incompatable
with EMACS.
The computing world is dense with endless minor fascinations.....
Rob Kling (kling.uci@rand-relay)
--
Here's an edited summary of some of the responses.
(I've also added an excerpt from a recent message on
Info-micro to complement the first message below about FinalWord
on the Rainbow.)
====================================================
.....unless you buy Mark of the Unicorn's
pair Mince & Scribble to get key bindings closer to Emacs, their FinalWord
is as close as you can come on a PC. I'm a long-time Emacs/Scribe user and am
happy w/ FW, though it's certainly crippled compared to Scribe (e.g. no
bibliography). MotU gives good support too. Avoid PerfectWriter.
----------------------------
The FinalWord editor is just different enough from EMACS that it's a real
pain in the neck - you always do the wrong thing, but it's not different
enough that your mind gets used to it and remembers to compensate.
On the other hand there is a thing by the same people called MINCE which
is exactly what you want for an editor (MINCE => Mince Is Not Complete
Emacs). They're right, it's not a totally complete EMACS, but there's a lot
there and it's a very close copy. I've flipped between DEC-20 EMACS and
MINCE for years with no problem.
The FinalWord formatter is fairly close to SCRIBE, though as you would
expect the command set is more limited. This is not to say that the
*database* files for the two are necessarily close. You sound like you
want to be able to run the same document on both machines - I believe
this is possible given some dicipline in your use of SCRIBE and some
work on the database.
(Actually both MINCE and SCRIBBLE, the precursor to the FinalWord
formatter, were originally written by a small company called Mark
of the Unicorn. They were sold together as a package called AMETHYST.
For all I know, they may still be, in which case that is what you want.)
----------------
The concepts between the Mince and FinalWord editors are the same but
the keystrokes can be different. In FinalWord ther are something like
250 commands any one of which can be connected to from one to three
keystrokes. I suspect that good use of the key definitions could make
FinalWord very close to EMACS in keystrokes. Being the brown motie that
I am I connected my arrow keys to do motion and my function keys to
do cut/paste&windows.
The FinalWarning is that I'm not sure that its a good idea to buy into
a product line (Mince/Scribble) which will have no new releases. I've
received two new releases of FinalWord w/manual for free and they have
fixed some bugs (text motion between two windows in different files) and
made the formatter more compatible with Scribe. I've had execellent success
in moving from Scribe to FinalWord. The biblio database is the only thing
I really miss.
Some basic information:
FinalWord is not much like EMACS (in terms of the key bindings).
But Mark of the Unicorn sells not only FinalWord (which they advertise),
but also Mince and Scribble. Mince is very much like EMACS (at least
when compared to any non-emacs editor). Some of the commands do slightly
different things, and it doesn't have macros or any of the really fancy
features of EMACS. I forget offhand the exact points of difference, but
if you know EMACS, you can sit right down and use Mince. Scribble is
a text formatter closely related to SCRIBE. Scribble does not have
macros or defines or counters, but you could write a document using
scribble that could later be run through Scribe, I think. Scribble will
drive most dotmatrix or impact printers, but it won't do bitmap fonts.
One can buy Mince and Scribble for about $150 each (discounts
available). One can buy FinalWord for $300. FinalWord contains Scribble,
so you do not need to buy them separately. You can call up Scribble on
your text file while running FinalWord. With Mince/Scribble, they are
separate programs. But Mince/Scribble have the interesting advantage that
when you buy them you get most of the source code, and object modules for
the parts you don't get source for. Personally, I think Mince/Scribble is
a better buy than FinalWord. Don't know about PerfectWriter, but from
what I've seen and heard, any of these is better than most any other
editor commercially available for micros.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
FinalWord on Rainbows::
-------
I'm a heavy EMACS user, but I've never used SCRIBE. At home I use
The Final Word on a DEC Rainbow. I can't speak for similarities
to SCRIBE, but I DO recommend the product. It's powerful, fairly
well thought out, and works very well -- I've yet to encounter a bug
after three months of heavy use.
-------
I have FinalWord running on my Rainbow, and am trying to make it
as much like Emacs as possible, so that my reflexes dont hurt me
when editing. I notice that the designers have put in two 'prefix'
characters (one of which seems locked into 'escape'). I can make
the other one ^X but i cant seem to bind any commands to the
second prefix.
-------
Loop to first line of first message.
-------Kling.UCI-20B%rand-relay@sri-unix.UUCP (11/29/83)
From: Rob-Kling <Kling.UCI-20B@rand-relay>
Several weeks ago I inquired about the similarities of FinalWord with
EMACS+SCRIBE since I'm trying to set up consistent packages on a
DEC20 and an IBMPC.
I want to be able to move the same document back and forth between
both machines.
(I currently use Multimate on the PC which is nice for
letters and memos but clearly is not a candidate
since no version exists for the DEC20's and never will.)
It seems clear to me that Mince+Scribble is the closest match
to EMACS+SCRIBE. The main limitations seems to be
that Mince+Scribble are nether evolving nor fully
supported. Since TFW "evolved" from Mince+Scribble, I wonder why
the designers altered it so as to make
the interface that WAS compatable with EMACS incompatable
with EMACS.
--
Here's an edited summary of some of the responses.
(I've also added an excerpt from a recent message on
Info-micro to complement the first message below about FinalWord
on the Rainbow.)
====================================================
.....unless you buy Mark of the Unicorn's
pair Mince & Scribble to get key bindings closer to Emacs, their FinalWord
is as close as you can come on a PC. I'm a long-time Emacs/Scribe user and am
happy w/ FW, though it's certainly crippled compared to Scribe (e.g. no
bibliography). MotU gives good support too. Avoid PerfectWriter.
----------------------------
The FinalWord editor is just different enough from EMACS that it's a real
pain in the neck - you always do the wrong thing, but it's not different
enough that your mind gets used to it and remembers to compensate.
On the other hand there is a thing by the same people called MINCE which
is exactly what you want for an editor (MINCE => Mince Is Not Complete
Emacs). They're right, it's not a totally complete EMACS, but there's a lot
there and it's a very close copy. I've flipped between DEC-20 EMACS and
MINCE for years with no problem.
The FinalWord formatter is fairly close to SCRIBE, though as you would
expect the command set is more limited. This is not to say that the
*database* files for the two are necessarily close. You sound like you
want to be able to run the same document on both machines - I believe
this is possible given some dicipline in your use of SCRIBE and some
work on the database.
(Actually both MINCE and SCRIBBLE, the precursor to the FinalWord
formatter, were originally written by a small company called Mark
of the Unicorn. They were sold together as a package called AMETHYST.
For all I know, they may still be, in which case that is what you want.)
----------------
The concepts between the Mince and FinalWord editors are the same but
the keystrokes can be different. In FinalWord ther are something like
250 commands any one of which can be connected to from one to three
keystrokes. I suspect that good use of the key definitions could make
FinalWord very close to EMACS in keystrokes. Being the brown motie that
I am I connected my arrow keys to do motion and my function keys to
do cut/paste&windows.
The FinalWarning is that I'm not sure that its a good idea to buy into
a product line (Mince/Scribble) which will have no new releases. I've
received two new releases of FinalWord w/manual for free and they have
fixed some bugs (text motion between two windows in different files) and
made the formatter more compatible with Scribe. I've had execellent success
in moving from Scribe to FinalWord. The biblio database is the only thing
I really miss.
Some basic information:
FinalWord is not much like EMACS (in terms of the key bindings).
But Mark of the Unicorn sells not only FinalWord (which they advertise),
but also Mince and Scribble. Mince is very much like EMACS (at least
when compared to any non-emacs editor). Some of the commands do slightly
different things, and it doesn't have macros or any of the really fancy
features of EMACS. I forget offhand the exact points of difference, but
if you know EMACS, you can sit right down and use Mince. Scribble is
a text formatter closely related to SCRIBE. Scribble does not have
macros or defines or counters, but you could write a document using
scribble that could later be run through Scribe, I think. Scribble will
drive most dotmatrix or impact printers, but it won't do bitmap fonts.
One can buy Mince and Scribble for about $150 each (discounts
available). One can buy FinalWord for $300. FinalWord contains Scribble,
so you do not need to buy them separately. You can call up Scribble on
your text file while running FinalWord. With Mince/Scribble, they are
separate programs. But Mince/Scribble have the interesting advantage that
when you buy them you get most of the source code, and object modules for
the parts you don't get source for. Personally, I think Mince/Scribble is
a better buy than FinalWord. Don't know about PerfectWriter, but from
what I've seen and heard, any of these is better than most any other
editor commercially available for micros.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
FinalWord on Rainbows::
-------
I'm a heavy EMACS user, but I've never used SCRIBE. At home I use
The Final Word on a DEC Rainbow. I can't speak for similarities
to SCRIBE, but I DO recommend the product. It's powerful, fairly
well thought out, and works very well -- I've yet to encounter a bug
after three months of heavy use.
-------
I have FinalWord running on my Rainbow, and am trying to make it
as much like Emacs as possible, so that my reflexes dont hurt me
when editing. I notice that the designers have put in two 'prefix'
characters (one of which seems locked into 'escape'). I can make
the other one ^X but i cant seem to bind any commands to the
second prefix.
-------
Loop to first line of first message.
-------