jordan@Apple.COM (Jordan Mattson) (02/16/91)
Dear Robert - The overhead involved in doing a beta version through APDA is considerable and makes beta's almost as involved as doing a final and pretty much the same price as a final. Instead of doing betas through APDA, I have been moving to putting beta out on E.T.O. (as well as other pre-release software that it is good for developers to have). It is allowing us to move faster on shipping products and to turn our products much faster. If you are a leading edge developer, who would use beta products, then E.T.O. is the product for you. For $300.00 a year, you stay current with the latest and greatest from Apple. I highly recommend that you take the plunge, along with a lot of other developers, and go for E.T.O. -- Jordan Mattson UUCP: jordan@apple.apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. CSNET: jordan@apple.CSNET Development Tools Product Management AppleLink: Mattson1 20400 Stevens Creek Blvd, MS 75-8X Cupertino, CA 95014 408-974-4601 "Joy is the serious business of heaven." C.S. Lewis
brian@umbc3.UMBC.EDU (Brian Cuthie) (02/19/91)
In article <49212@apple.Apple.COM> jordan@Apple.COM (Jordan Mattson) writes: ... > If you are a leading edge developer, who would use beta products, then E.T.O. >is the product for you. For $300.00 a year, you stay current with the latest >and greatest from Apple. I highly recommend that you take the plunge, along >with a lot of other developers, and go for E.T.O. > > >-- > > >Jordan Mattson UUCP: jordan@apple.apple.com >Apple Computer, Inc. CSNET: jordan@apple.CSNET >Development Tools Product Management AppleLink: Mattson1 I *am* a serious (and not cheap) developer. I have been an Apple Partner for several years now. However, since I paid over $500 for C++ and MacApp not more than 4 mos. ago, I am not too anxious to trade the two in for the $275 that apple will give towards E.T.O. Is there some better deal that I am not aware of. I'm really kind of annoyed that the startup cost for E.T.O is so high considering my recent tool aquisitions. I don't have any problem with the $300/year though. After all, all I can do with Mac Development tools is develop Mac Software. For what apple charges for some of it's machines, the stuff should almost be free. (especially when you consider the low dist. cost of CD's). Just my $.02 worth. Brian Cuthie Cuthie and Associates (real creative, huh ?) Columbia, Md. 21046 (301) 381-1718
laird@chinet.chi.il.us (Laird J. Heal) (02/19/91)
In article <49212@apple.Apple.COM> jordan@Apple.COM (Jordan Mattson) writes: ***FLAME ON*** In article <49212@apple.Apple.COM>, jordan@Apple.COM (Jordan Mattson) writes > The overhead involved in doing a beta version through APDA is considerable and >makes beta's [...] pretty much the same price as a final. > Instead of doing betas through APDA, I have been moving to putting beta out >on E.T.O. This strategy is at best misguided, but I am waxing flambescent because I feel it intentionally provides a misservice to the developer community. > If you are a leading edge developer, who would use beta products, then E.T.O. >is the product for you. For $300.00 a year, you stay current with the latest >and greatest from Apple. I highly recommend that you take the plunge, along >with a lot of other developers, and go for E.T.O. I do not have a CD-ROM drive (I did for six months but never opened the box) but what is wrong with using the develop disks? They cost $30/yr, right? For $300/yr, I highly recommend that you put finals on E.T.O. How can we justify such a cost for unfinished software, just because there is room on the media? How can we justify the time to wade through and discover what is worth our time to use? ***FLAME OFF*** Marketing is a black art, motivated by a desire to stay in the black. We need to push some of the 'black marketeers' not into the red, but into the pink, where everyone is happy, healthy, and hopefully horny. -- Laird J. Heal With fiends like us Here: laird@chinet.chi.il.us who needs enemas?
ph@cci632.UUCP (Pete Hoch) (02/20/91)
> jordan@Apple.COM (Jordan Mattson) writes >> If you are a leading edge developer, who would use beta products, then E.T.O. >>is the product for you. For $300.00 a year, you stay current with the latest >>and greatest from Apple. I highly recommend that you take the plunge, along >>with a lot of other developers, and go for E.T.O. laird@chinet.chi.il.us (Laird J. Heal) writes: > ***FLAME ON*** > I do not have a CD-ROM drive (I did for six months but never opened the box) > but what is wrong with using the develop disks? They cost $30/yr, right? > For $300/yr, I highly recommend that you put finals on E.T.O. How can we > justify such a cost for unfinished software, just because there is room > on the media? How can we justify the time to wade through and discover > what is worth our time to use? > ***FLAME OFF*** I realize that the quote from Jordan says that ETO contains Beta and pre final software, but he never said ONLY!!!! As a subscriber from ETO #1 I can say that it contains all the latest final versions of MPW, MPW C, MPW C++, MPW Assembler, MPW Pascal, MacApp, and probably other things I can't remember. It also has SpinsideMac, Tech Notes stack, DTS FAQ stack, and more things that I can not remember. It ALSO contains Beta and Prefinal releases of MPW stuff, MacApp, and other tools etc. such as virtual user. Oh, one more thing. When one of the items on ETO goes final you get all the final printed documentation for it. Pete Hoch
dhoyt@vx.acs.umn.edu (DAVID HOYT) (02/23/91)
In article <1991Feb19.112326.7404@chinet.chi.il.us>, laird@chinet.chi.il.us (Laird J. Heal) writes... >For $300/yr, I highly recommend that you put finals on E.T.O. How can we >justify such a cost for unfinished software, just because there is room >on the media? How can we justify the time to wade through and discover >what is worth our time to use? Ahhem. Both the finals and the betas are shipped with ETO. Risk takers will want to use the new features before they are stable, software developers will be able to see the directions of future products and developers for life support systems can stay with the most conservitive product. Everybody wins. david | dhoyt@vx.acs.umn.edu | dhoyt@umnacvx.bitnet
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (opcode ranger) (02/23/91)
In article <3329@ux.acs.umn.edu>, dhoyt@vx.acs.umn.edu (DAVID HOYT) writes: > Ahhem. Both the finals and the betas are shipped with ETO. Risk takers > will want to use the new features before they are stable, software > developers will be able to see the directions of future products and > developers for life support systems can stay with the most conservitive > product. Everybody wins. I think my problem with E.T.O is really the fact that non-final releases of Apple Macintosh development tools are being moved from APDA to E.T.O. I have no problem with their being on E.T.O; I do have a problem with them not being available from APDA. Basically, if you wish to be a "cutting edge" Mac developer (although I'm not so sure how "cutting edge" a graphical debugger for MPW is, something THINK has had for their compilers for years) you need to cough up $600 for a CD ROM player, possibly several hundred to buy the 'missing pieces' of MPW you need in order to get E.T.O., plus $320/year in order to get E.T.O. itself ($300 plus the $20 APDA membership you need to get E.T.O.). An investment of, say, $1200 or so may not be a lot for a large company. And it's to those folks that E.T.O. is probably aimed. But there are those of us -- and I am one -- who earn their living solely from Mac programming to whom $1200 is a lot of money. The argument can be made that for small developers being on the "cutting edge" is not really that important; wait for the final to be available thru APDA. Maybe, but then why is it worth it to other developers to purchase E.T.O., if getting the latest stuff in a prompt manner isn't important? And what's the delay between alpha and final? Probably many months. Look, E.T.O. seems like a big step forward, and will be a great thing for many developers. And the fact that buying into E.T.O. is somewhat pricey is not the end of the world: I can -- and do -- develop Mac software without the latest goodies from Apple. And maybe I'll save my pennies to get E.T.O. someday (MacWeek rumours that Apple will soon release a new, cheaper CD ROM player). I guess there's just something about being asked to shell out $1200 in order to get new Mac development tools in a timely fashion that bugs me. Ah well, back to the piggy bank...:->. Robert -- ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
laird@chinet.chi.il.us (Laird J. Heal) (02/23/91)
In article <51123@cci632.UUCP> ph@cci632.UUCP (Pete Hoch) writes >> jordan@Apple.COM (Jordan Mattson) writes >>> [...] E.T.O. >>>is the product for you. For $300.00 a year, you stay current with the latest >>>and greatest from Apple. I highly recommend that you [...] go for E.T.O. >laird@chinet.chi.il.us (Laird J. Heal) writes: >> ***FLAME ON*** >> For $300/yr, I highly recommend that you put finals on E.T.O. How can we >> justify such a cost for unfinished software, just because there is room >> on the media? How can we justify the time to wade through and discover >> what is worth our time to use? >> ***FLAME OFF*** I did some more checking and the beta versions advertised in the APDAlog are those of the finals constituting the meat of E.T.O. So the practice seems justified, although personally I find enough bugs in the *finals* that I do not need to check out the *betas*. Go into the MPW Shell and type Catenate "{Active}".$ select that line, and hit Enter or meta-Return (or mouseDown in the lower-left of the Active window). or see that if "Regular-Expression" =~ /([-a-zA-Z]+)<option-R>1/ echo "Regular {<option-R>1}" else echo "Irregular {<option-R>1}" end echo "{<option-R>1}" shows that regular expression parsing in the Shell is durable but while the Find command is "built-in" Find /([-a-zA-Z]+){<option-R>1}/ echo "{<option-R>1}" shows that regular expression parsing in the Find command does not behave the same way as in the if-test. Gee, another one: I tried to replace "<option-R>" with the single keystroke (option-r) and was told "Out of memory". So I tested my examples after cutting and pasting. Replace /<option-R>/ "<option-dr>" failed too. However, ***FLAME ON*** I did some more checking and the price (in the Fall APDAlog) is not $300/yr but rather $995. That's right, a cool G. Oh, that does include *four* CD disks, one for each season, but remember, as the APDAlog states, _this_is_a_ _single_user_product_. In my case, since I personally have purchased MPW C and Pascal, I could get a discount; would my very old version of MacApp count? I have little use either for it or C++ except to cobble a primrose object-oriented path. I query how any one user would want to use both MPW C (or C++) and Object Pascal MacApp. Pascal and C are nice to have but their side branches start to become a bit specialized. So Apple charges us $20/yr for that advertising circular they call the APDAlog, and, to be a bit unfair, also charges us $300/yr so we can review their beta software for them? ***FLAMING ON*** I consider the original article a blatant advertisement, and I wish that when such messages appear on the net they can at least set things straight. ***FLAME OFF*** Jordan has every right to feel proud of Apple, especially but not just as his employer, as I have every right to feel critical, especially but not just because access to beta software and developer information in general used to be easier. We have to say things forthrightly on the net, because only so many words fit on a page. I would have no problems buying Jordan a drink if he will come to Boston for the Expo - that way it won't have to be carrot juice. >As a subscriber from ETO #1 I can say that it contains all the latest >final versions of MPW, MPW C, MPW C++, MPW Assembler, MPW Pascal, MacApp, >and probably other things I can't remember. My point precisely - who has the time to look through all of that stuff? Well, that is not fair: after 10+years in the mainframe world I could pull stuff out of my hat that other folks could never guess at; and after 6+ years with Inside Mac under my pillow I find myself doing the same thing. -- Laird J. Heal The Usenet is dead! Here: laird@chinet.chi.il.us Long live the Usenet!
jspencer@p510.f22.n282.z1.mmug.edgar.mn.org (Jim Spencer) (02/25/91)
Laird J. Heal writes in a message to All
LJH> I did some more checking and the price (in the Fall APDAlog)
LJH> is not $300/yr but rather $995. That's right, a cool G. Oh, that
LJH> does include *four* CD disks, one for each season, but remember,
LJH> as the APDAlog states, _this_is_a_ _single_user_product_. In
LJH> my case, since I personally have purchased MPW C and Pascal,
LJH> I could get a discount; would my very old version of MacApp count?
LJH> I have little use either for it or C++ except to cobble a primrose
LJH> object-oriented path.
What are you going on about? 1) The price of ETO is $300 per year once you own all the parts. The $995 gets you all of the parts the first time plus all of the manuals. For you, already owning MPW, MPW C and MPW Pascal, you can save some money (in fact if you own these, I can't figure out why you wouldn't have bought the bundle in which case you already have the Assembler and SADE as well and all you have left to buy other than the $300 subscription is MacApp and this you might be able to upgrade.)
This misses the point however. You can still buy upgrades of the latest release software from APDA. If you aren't going to use enough of ETO to make it worth your while, then don't buy it. What you will lack is the cutting edge stuff but, so what?
--
Jim Spencer (jspencer@mmug.edgar.mn.org)
UUCP: ...jhereg!tcnet!vware!edgar!mmug!jspencer
FidoNet: 1:282/22.510
--jordan@Apple.COM (Jordan Mattson) (02/26/91)
Dear Laird - E.T.O. _is_ $300.00 a year for a subscription to four CD-ROMs. To be allowed to subscribe to E.T.O you must own the MPW C and Object Pascal Bundle, MPW C++, and MacApp. You would be given credits for your MPW C and Object Pascal Bundle and for MacApp, requiring you to purchase MPW C++ (at a discount I might add) to be eligible for E.T.O. Yes, E.T.O. does contain beta software, just as the software supplement of old contained beta software. There are a lot of folks for which this will solve problems. Also remember that is you are an E.T.O. subscriber you will get the final releases of the various products. Looking the beta-final costs in the past, $300.00 for all betas and final releases of MPW, MPW C++, and MacApp, is going to be a big savings. And remember that their are things like 411 that only make sense to distribute on CD-ROM, that you will be getting also. -- Jordan Mattson UUCP: jordan@apple.apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. CSNET: jordan@apple.CSNET Development Tools Product Management AppleLink: Mattson1 20400 Stevens Creek Blvd, MS 75-8X Cupertino, CA 95014 408-974-4601 "Joy is the serious business of heaven." C.S. Lewis