phil@amd70.UUCP (11/15/83)
Buy an IBM-PC. (and don't get one of the imitations either)
--
Phil Ngai (408) 988-7777 {ucbvax|decwrl|ihnp4|allegra}!amd70!philzemon@felix.UUCP (11/17/83)
Buying a computer is just like buying any other expensive
and long lasting item/tool/machine/.... You should follow
three steps, quitting at any point along the way if you
realize that you are chasing a dream.
1) Decide what you want the computer to do.
Be hard-nosed about this. Way too many people buy
computers and then discover that they have wasted
many hundreds of dollars on something that sits unused.
It's tough deciding this, especially if you have never
had a computer. On the other hand, you can rule out
a lot of task as impractical without even trying them.
For instance, you might think about keeping your addresses
on the computer. Is it really more convienent to a) go
to the computer, b) turn it on and wait for it to warm
up, c) put the right disk/cassette in the machine,
d) run the program, e) tell it who you want, f) try to
remember the phone number as you walk back to the phone
than it is to look up the phone number in the little
book next to the phone? Many home "uses" of a computer
fall into this category.
2) Decide how much money you can spend.
Decide this BEFORE you are in a store with a salemsman
explaining how it is "only" $30 per month. $30 per month
for three years is still $1080....
3) Take your time shopping and get the best deal.
Look at a lot of systems. The last "comprehensive" list
of microcomputer systems that I saw ran for over six pages!
Ask salesmen for the price of the COMPLETE system. Many,
many systems are priced unbundled. For example, you can
buy an IBM P/C for about $1500 but you will spend over
$3000 for a complete system with extra memory, printer
and SOFTWARE. That's a bit difference.
-- Art Zemon
FileNet Corp.
...!{decvax, ucbvax}!trw-unix!felix!zemon
(714)966-2344andree@uokvax.UUCP (11/19/83)
#R:sri-arpa:-1361600:uokvax:3400014:000:2680
uokvax!andree Nov 17 15:10:00 1983
/***** uokvax:net.micro / amd70!phil / 1:02 am Nov 16, 1983 */
Buy an IBM-PC. (and don't get one of the imitations either)
--
Phil Ngai (408) 988-7777 {ucbvax|decwrl|ihnp4|allegra}!amd70!phil
/* ---------- */
Great. I want a computer specifically to play the game `Joust.'
Would you tell me where to buy this game for the computer you
recommended I buy?
I know, that seems ridiculous. But {\B YOU CANNOT RECOMMEND A
COMPUTER WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT IT IS FOR!}. Yes, the IBM-PC is a
nice computer (for some things) and yes, there is software that
won't run on the imitations. But one of the things I eventually
want to do on my home system is symbolic algebra, and I don't
think you can fit a reasonable system for doing that on an 8086.
A friend is looking for something to help twiddle integers; said
integers are usually between 100K and 1M. I don't believe the
8086 supports 32 bit integers. To reiterate: You CANNOT
reasonably recommend a computer without knowing what it is for.
So, let's consider some of the uses of personal computers, and
recommend things for those.
Game machine: The 8086 machines are to expensive. If you have to
have computer, look at the radio shack COCO. Nice game machine,
and it turns into the most computer of the machines in the <$500
market. Or you could try and find out about the GCE Vectrex game
machine keyboard attachment.
Personal accounting: One of the IBM PC imitations. First find
the software, then find an imitation it runs on. You have to pay
too much for the IBM-PC. Rule number one is to select the software
first.
Word processing & the like: The same thing as above applies.
However, you might give more consideration to CP/M-80 machines,
as the extra power of the 8086 isn't that noticable for this
application. MAKE SURE YOU GET A KEYBOARD YOU CAN LIVE WITH
(The IBM-PC is notably deficient in this area).
Want an expensive toy to play with: Get whatever you can afford.
If you want a system for hacking, wait for the 68000 boxes to
appear. The 68000 doesn't suffer from the address space
fragment- uh, segmentation of the 8086 family.
Mixing the above: Just apply common sense. A pitfall is if you
want something for you to do work on, AND for the kids to play
games on. In that case, pay for name brand hardware (the IBM-PC
is probably best) as those are the machines the games will appear
on, and the games probably won't run on the imitations.
Note that I DO NOT hate the IBM-PC. IBM, maybe, but not the
IBM-PC. I consider it to be a nice, overpriced machine. I do
detest the 8086 address hosery. The 8086 is an 8-bit processor
with delusions of grandeur. But if it does the job you want
done, go with it
<mikePELLEGRINO@CMU-CS-C.ARPA (11/20/83)
Obviously, most of you out there have purchased at least one home computer. I'm interested in collecting your advice for someone buying a home computer for the first (or second) time. What sorts of things would you recommend or not recommend? What to look out for, etc. The way I see it, there are two markets, the under $500 and over $500. I'm also interested in hearing about your experiences, good or bad. thanks in advance, bob pellegrino pellegrino@cmu-cs-c -------
phil@amd70.UUCP (Phil Ngai) (11/21/83)
I would like to add that I too dislike IBM and 8086s. After all, I
use Unix all the time at work and 8086s don't run Unix all that well.
But, the IBM-PC market is too big for vendors to ignore and you can
only take advantage of that (the fact that more stuff comes out for
IBM-PCs than any other micro and that this is also a self-fulfilling
prophesy) if you have an IBM-PC.
If you buy something cheaper like the TI you'll probably be turned off
by it or have to start over when you want to expand or run that neat
software that everyone else has or is writing.
To paraphrase Khrushchev, IBM will bury you (other micros).
I don't know if this is good, but it is.
--
Phil Ngai (408) 988-7777 {ucbvax|decwrl|ihnp4|allegra}!amd70!philweamc@pyuxa.UUCP (11/21/83)
All this talk about hardware is not to the point. It is the software
that counts. If you just want to play games, it doesn't matter very
much what you buy. If you want a real computer, the only operating
system that offers the power of a big system (e.g. a VAX) is OASIS.
OASIS is available for the Z80 and the 8086 family, and supports true
multi-user, multi-tasking processing.You don't have to buy a hardware
spooler because OASIS has a real system spooler. I would match my Z80
OASIS system against any other micro--CP/M, MS-DOS, etc.
Just to give you an idea, CP/M uses about three tracks of a DD 8"
disk; OASIS uses two full sides of the same disk--a full megabyte of
system software, including a macro assembler, a re-locatable loader,
a re-entrant BASIC, communications software, a de-bugger with a full set of
tools, a word processing package, real HELP files on every single command,
and much much more.
Andy Cohill Western Electric, Piscataway, NJwetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (11/21/83)
For those who are snickering at us boobs who ran out to buy a TI, please stop before we all die of mortification. No, seriously folks, us TIers have a different motive in mind and would appreciate any help we can get. First, we are not rich, otherwise we probably would have invested in an IBM. For the cost of the IBM, plus periphs, we are able to get two or three TIs, plus periphs, plus enough software to drown in. We don't have to worry about TI coming out with a "NEW AND IMMPROVED" version every two years. Second, most of the TI buyers right now are of the older person variety with little number crunchers running around the house. The TI is an excellent tool for teaching the little bytes what a computer is all about. (Remember your first experience with a green-eyed monster?) The TI is an excellent teaching machine (via logo and other software packages). I don't care that it is not all that fast, after all I don't expect the crazy thing to calculate the possible missle paths of ICBMs. Micro-seconds to the layman equates to billions of dollars to a congressman (no meaning at all). Besides, TI has announced that they intend to support whatever is out in the field through periphs and software (they really did announce it last week). That's good enough for me. So if any more of you would be so kind, us TIers will take all the information you can dish out concerning TIs. (I also own a TRS-80 Model I, Level II, so you see, I am moving up.)
smith@umn-cs.UUCP (Richard Smith) (11/22/83)
#R:sri-arpa:-1361600:umn-cs:6900020:000:1388
umn-cs!smith Nov 21 10:36:00 1983
Rather than generate flames of the form 'Computer {x} is better than
computer {y}' I'll just say a few things I've found:
1. Don't waste time/money on casettes for data storage. I use my home
machine to do my checkbook, maybe the simplest of all 'real' home
applications; the speed of the floppy drive makes this worthwhile.
Otherwise I'd spend most of my time waiting for tapes to spin.
2. Plan on getting a decent printer eventually if not immediately. Look
at sample printer output (hopefully from a beaten up demo model) before
you decide. Ask yourself what YOU would think if someone sent you
a letter (or maybe a resume) typed on that printer.
3. Be sure you can get an RS232 interface. Most interesting peripherals
(except mass storage) can be attached through RS232 interfaces.
4. Look at the software you want to get and be certain that it will run on
the machine you plan to buy. If the machine is '{x} compatible', remember
that some (or most) software for {x} may not run on the 'compatible'
machine. Try before you buy.
If the computer you're looking at doesn't have these things, DON'T BUY IT
until the manufacturer provides them. If the manufacturer doesn't have these
features availible, don't assume that they'll be in business long enough to
develop the features.
Rick.
[smith.umn-cs@CSNet-Relay]
[...ihnp4!umn-cs!smith]abc%brl-bmd@sri-unix.UUCP (11/23/83)
From: A B Cooper III <abc@brl-bmd> You needn't apologize for buying an 'obsolete' TI 99/4A. National Public Radio carried an item this morning that TI would announce a 'personal computer' next month that would use the same hardware and software of the 'home computer' which they just discontinued. Brint
emjej@uokvax.UUCP (11/25/83)
#R:pyuxa:-36500:uokvax:3400019:000:723 uokvax!emjej Nov 23 08:53:00 1983 "the only operating system that offers the power of a big system (e.g. a VAX) is OASIS...." I beg to differ. I submit that OS-9 is vastly superior to anything running on an 8080oid processor. Being a Eunuchoidal OS, much Unix software will port readily. It supports multitasking and multiuser operation. It runs on the Motorola 6809, and a 68000 version (the first of three) is due out early in 1984. You are certainly correct about the software being the important thing, but the power of the processor affects the speed and capacity of one's system, and the 6809 is sufficiently superior to 8080oid machines (and the 68000 to the 8086) that even were things otherwise equal, OS-9 would be preferable. James Jones
fair@dual.UUCP (Erik E. Fair) (12/05/83)
IBM will bury me? Personally, I prefer an older analogy: that of
David and Goliath. Now, if can only find a rock...
Erik E. Fair {ucbvax,amd70,zehntel,unisoft}!dual!fair
Dual Systems Corporation, Berkeley, CaliforniaPELLEGRINO@CMU-CS-C.ARPA (12/06/83)
A million thanks to the tremendous response, both public and private, to my original post requesting advice on this topic. A summary of responses can be found in: <pellegrino>Buying-your-first-computer.txt on the cmu-cs-c. (cmu-cs-c ftp supports anonymous login with GUEST password) bob p. pellegrino@cmu-cs-c -------