rad@genco.bungi.com (Bob Daniel) (03/15/91)
Has the IIci ROMs been updated in newer IIci's so that the MM Init is no longer needed? If so, what version of ROM has the fix? A friend of mine just got a new IIci and was wondering if he needs to use the init. Please reply via e-mail. Thanks and moof moof, Bob Daniel rad@genco.uucp
keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (03/17/91)
In article <565@genco.bungi.com> rad@genco.bungi.com (Bob Daniel) writes: >Has the IIci ROMs been updated in newer IIci's so that the MM Init is no >longer needed? If so, what version of ROM has the fix? A friend of mine >just got a new IIci and was wondering if he needs to use the init. This is a copy of the letter I sent to Bob: Bob, IMHO, almost no one should need to be using MMInit. This is for several reasons which I'll list below, but first let me answer your question. No, the fix to the Memory Manager is not in any newer ROMs (Apple can't just quickly slap out new ROMs every day, you know), but a patch to the Memory Manager _is_ is System 7.0. As for the reasons why you shouldn't need to run MMInit: 1) Almost no applications are affected by the bug. There is only one that we know about, ProGraph. If you are not running that, then it is 99.99% likely that running the INIT will have no affect on your IIci. 2) The INIT is a duplicate of the Memory Manager in the IIci ROM, with the bug fixed. This duplicate includes other bugs in the Memory Manager that occur only in 32-bit mode. These problems are fixed in System 7.0 (which is the only way you can run in 32-bit mode), but if you run the INIT, you'll re-introduce those bugs into your Mac. 3) Even the problem with ProGraph is easily fixed. For reasons which are too elaborate to go into here, unlocking the CODE resources will speed up ProGraph's execution. As I understand it, there are still some problems with the applications that ProGraph creates, but it's possible that those could be fixed, too, eliminating the need for MMInit. 4) The INIT has shown some compatibility problems with some major 3rd party software. The symptoms of these problems include crashes into the debugger, mouse freezes, and the inability to boot your Macintosh. 5) Performance testing of the INIT gave inconclusive results as to its overall usefulness. Though speed deviances were mostly in the standard margin for error, there was some evidence that the INIT might actually be _slowing down_ some applications! With the exception of ProGraph and another as yet unreleased program, I know of no programs that have definitely shown that they run better with the INIT than without. This includes some of the most memory intensive applications I know, like MPW and 4th Dimension. Many people THOUGHT that the INIT sped things up, but when those operations were put under the stopwatch, it was found that those reports were invalid. People have also reported that their machines have stopped crashing, or don't crash as often, after they install the INIT. Well, that may be true, but not because of anything the INIT does. The INIT does not fix or address any crashing bugs in the Memory Manager -- and, as far as I know, there aren't any such bugs. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. INTERNET: keith@apple.com UUCP: {decwrl, hoptoad, nsc, sun, amdahl}!apple!keith "I don't work in DTS anymore, so don't expect what I say to be right."
kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle) (03/17/91)
keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: >4) The INIT has shown some compatibility problems with some major > 3rd party software. The symptoms of these problems include crashes > into the debugger, mouse freezes, and the inability to boot your > Macintosh. Any idea which apps these might be? ....perhaps a list could be posted. -- ...kiran __________kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu________(812) 331-1710 From the corrections column in a July Fresno, CA _Bee_: "An item in Thursday's [issue] about the Massachusetts budget crisis made reference to new taxes that will help put Massachusetts 'back in the African-American.' The item should have said 'back in the black.'"
keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (03/18/91)
In article <kiran.669215471@copper> kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle) writes: >keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: >>4) The INIT has shown some compatibility problems with some major >> 3rd party software. The symptoms of these problems include crashes >> into the debugger, mouse freezes, and the inability to boot your >> Macintosh. > >Any idea which apps these might be? ....perhaps a list could be posted. Someone in my position has to be very careful about what he posts. The cause of these crashes has never been tracked to the the source, and can't be without a buttload of work in Macsbug. Without conclusive evidence of where the problem lays/lies/whatever, it would be irresponsible for me to start pointing fingers at specific applications. I don't want to give any third party programs bad names if the problem is not theirs. Who know? Maybe I introduced a few bugs in the INIT, and the fault is mine. Maybe the crashes were because of some other interaction on the Mac, or due to the beta versions of 6.0.7 that were running around at the time. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. INTERNET: keith@apple.com UUCP: {decwrl, hoptoad, nsc, sun, amdahl}!apple!keith "I don't work in DTS anymore, so don't expect what I say to be right."
Garance_Drosehn@mts.rpi.edu (03/19/91)
>In article <565@genco.bungi.com> rad@genco.bungi.com (Bob Daniel) wrote: >Has the IIci ROMs been updated in newer IIci's so that the MM Init is no >longer needed? If so, what version of ROM has the fix? A friend of mine >just got a new IIci and was wondering if he needs to use the init. In article <50342@apple.Apple.COM> keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) replied: >This is a copy of the letter I sent to Bob: > >Bob, > >IMHO, almost no one should need to be using MMInit. This is for several >reasons which I'll list below, but first let me answer your question. >No, the fix to the Memory Manager is not in any newer ROMs (Apple can't >just quickly slap out new ROMs every day, you know), but a patch to the >Memory Manager _is_ is System 7.0. > >As for the reasons why you shouldn't need to run MMInit: > >1) Almost no applications are affected by the bug. There is only one > that we know about, ProGraph. If you are not running that, then it > is 99.99% likely that running the INIT will have no affect on your > IIci. Another application where a noticable speedup occurs is the one I'm using right now, namely, TheNews. The improvement is mainly noticable when going thru newsgroups with a lot of articles in it. >2) The INIT is a duplicate of the Memory Manager in the IIci ROM, with > the bug fixed. This duplicate includes other bugs in the Memory > Manager that occur only in 32-bit mode. These problems are fixed in > System 7.0 (which is the only way you can run in 32-bit mode), but > if you run the INIT, you'll re-introduce those bugs into your Mac. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like this reason should be reworded as "Don't use MMInit if you're running any system later than 6.0.7". The fact that bugs are fixed in 7.0 isn't going to mean much to me, running 6.0.5 on a Mac IIci. Remember, officially speaking I can't run system 7.0 even if I wanted to (not yet, that is...). > ...(skipping along)... >4) The INIT has shown some compatibility problems with some major > 3rd party software. The symptoms of these problems include crashes > into the debugger, mouse freezes, and the inability to boot your > Macintosh. I must admit I have had some problems with system hangs. Many of them went away when I switched MMInit to be close to the first init loaded, but I still had some problems. I haven't tracked down the exact culprit(s) yet, but I suspect something in my INITs and cdevs. I had over 30 after I added MMInit, and the remainder of my hanging problems went away when I disabled a couple of those. Some of those were ones I added at about the same time as MMInit, so it may be that MMInit isn't the culprit for any of the problems I saw. At the moment I'm not having problems. Your mileage may vary. > ...(remainder of Keith's original message deleted)... I'm not disagreeing with Keith quite as much as it might sound here. If you try the init and it doesn't produce an immediate and unmistakable improvement in some programs you are running, then there is no reason to use it. I have only two programs where the improvement was real (and right now I can't think what the other program was...), so you're not likely to see much improvement. And remember, it only takes one or two system hangs before you'll lose all the time the init is supposed to be saving you. But I do think that for me, right now, it's worth it to keep MMInit in my startup rotation... - Garance_Drosehn@mts.rpi.edu