t-ericg@microsoft.UUCP (Eric GORR) (03/22/91)
I am looking for some advanced programming books for the macintosh which cover such topics as blitting (CopyBits), creating your own controls and working with regions. I do have Inside MAC vol 1-5, but I find them a bit difficult to understand in most areas. Thanx.
jeffb.bbs@shark.cs.fau.edu (Jeffrey Boser) (03/30/91)
I am sick and tired of people looking for alternatives for IM. From the excuses for avoiding it, it seems the people who dont like five volumes of techese read their dictionaries from the beginning to end continuously. Here is the jist of my gripe: IM is *the* reference for the macintosh Toolbox. There are NO alternatives. The Primer, Mac Revealed and others are nice introductions to IM, providing examples that can enlighten and instruct, but they do *not* contain the plethora of information that IM does. If you ever intend to more than HelloWorld, then it is a requirement, and trying to wiggle out of the learning curve will is like trying to jumping from a plane without a parachute: it might be fun for a while, but eventually you will hit and hit hard. Programmers that take pride in their work, like all craftsmen, take pride in their tools. They know that you do not skimp on the things that are important. If you do not feel this pride, stick with HyperCard. (not saying that HC is whimpy, or unsophisticated, but superficially it is simple and effective) .....Jeff jeffb.bbs@shark.cs.fau.edu
kempkec@mist.CS.ORST.EDU (Christopher Kempke) (03/30/91)
In article <93RLZ3w163w@shark.cs.fau.edu> jeffb.bbs@shark.cs.fau.edu (Jeffrey Boser) writes: >I am sick and tired of people looking for alternatives for IM. [...] >Here is the jist of my gripe: IM is *the* reference for the macintosh >Toolbox. There are NO alternatives. The Primer, Mac Revealed and others >are nice introductions to IM, providing examples that can enlighten and >instruct, but they do *not* contain the plethora of information that IM >does. Of course, IM is incomplete, containing nothing about Multifinder, Gestalt, etc etc. that is in many of the other books. It's also inaccurate -- just TRY writing anything using the sound manager with just the information in IM. I'm not trying to knock Inside Macintosh, it's just that until Apple can start releasing DOCUMENTATION with their system software to people who can't afford the $600-a-year or whatever fee to be a "registered developer", people WILL want and need correct documentation, and will continue to look to sources other than IM for that information unless IM can provide it in a timely manner. (Some three years out of date does NOT constitute a timely manner). Telling these people that they are not "craftsmen", or that they don't take pride in their tools and their work, will just make them a trifle annoyed with you. --Chris P.S. My recommendation would be Macintosh Revealed. It's somewhat easier to read than most of the other non-Apple books, and contains a summary that will _almost_ make IM unnecessary for many programs.
francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu (04/02/91)
In article <93RLZ3w163w@shark.cs.fau.edu> jeffb.bbs@shark.cs.fau.edu (Jeffrey Boser) writes: Here is the jist of my gripe: IM is *the* reference for the macintosh Toolbox. There are NO alternatives. The Primer, Mac Revealed and others It's not a bug, it's a feature. :-) On the one hand, you can't have 2 official sources, right? So IM is and will always be necessary. On the other hand, the secondary (non-Apple, remember) sources are for introduction--once you've gotten past that, you can pretty much handle IM (at least I guess that's the idea. Me, I never read anything but IM [and the UMPG :-]). In any case, who're you griping at? -- /============================================================================\ | Francis Stracke | My opinions are my own. I don't steal them.| | Department of Mathematics |=============================================| | University of Chicago | Until you stalk and overrun, | | francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu | you can't devour anyone. -- Hobbes | \============================================================================/
keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (04/02/91)
In article <1991Mar30.080621.12862@lynx.CS.ORST.EDU> kempkec@mist.CS.ORST.EDU (Christopher Kempke) writes: >In article <93RLZ3w163w@shark.cs.fau.edu> jeffb.bbs@shark.cs.fau.edu (Jeffrey Boser) writes: >>I am sick and tired of people looking for alternatives for IM. > [...] >>Here is the jist of my gripe: IM is *the* reference for the macintosh >>Toolbox. There are NO alternatives. The Primer, Mac Revealed and others >>are nice introductions to IM, providing examples that can enlighten and >>instruct, but they do *not* contain the plethora of information that IM >>does. > > Of course, IM is incomplete, containing nothing about Multifinder, > Gestalt, etc etc. that is in many of the other books. It's also > inaccurate -- just TRY writing anything using the sound manager with > just the information in IM. > > I'm not trying to knock Inside Macintosh, it's just that until Apple > can start releasing DOCUMENTATION with their system software to > people who can't afford the $600-a-year or whatever fee to be > a "registered developer", people WILL want and need correct > documentation, and will continue to look to sources other than IM > for that information unless IM can provide it in a timely manner. > (Some three years out of date does NOT constitute a timely manner). Chris, Please don't forget that Inside Mac is not the _only_ source of technical information from Apple. Inside Mac is augmented by Technotes, which are updated once every two months. To get these technotes, you can either pay a small amount to APDA (you don't even have to be an APDA member) or you can download them from any of the numerous electronic services that archive them. If you don't want to pay the cost of download time, then you can freely copy from any of your friends who have them. You do NOT have to be a "$600-a-year or whatever registered developer" to get timely and updated information. Issues like problems with the Sound Manager and MultiFinder have been dealt with in technotes. "Programmer's Guide to MultiFinder" is also available from APDA. Gestalt will be discussed in Inside Mac vol VI. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. INTERNET: keith@apple.com UUCP: {decwrl, hoptoad, nsc, sun, amdahl}!apple!keith "But where the senses fail us, reason must step in." - Galileo
klingspo@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Steve Klingsporn) (04/02/91)
As far as Macintosh programming books are concerned, I *love* Inside Mac, yet would suggest the following books also: "Programmer's Guide to MPW" -- Addison Wesley "C++ Programming with MacApp" -- Addison Wesley Steve
Lawson.English@p88.f15.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Lawson English) (04/03/91)
Jeffrey Boser writes in a message to All
JB> I am sick and tired of people looking for alternatives for IM.
JB>
JB> From the excuses for avoiding it, it seems the people who dont
JB> like five volumes of techese read their dictionaries from the
JB> beginning to end continuously
I always tell people that if Inside Macintosh is the "Bible," then Macintosh
Revealed is the Concordance...
They generally get both.
Lawson
--
Uucp: ...{gatech,ames,rutgers}!ncar!asuvax!stjhmc!300!15.88!Lawson.English
Internet: Lawson.English@p88.f15.n300.z1.fidonet.orgjtn@potomac.ads.com (John T. Nelson) (04/04/91)
I think the reasons people are reluctant to purchase Inside Mac are twofold: 1) Inside Mac is lacking in some information (MultiFinder for example) and is poorly written and organized. 2) Cost. Them there is expensive books guys. If Apple were to reorganize Inside Mac and include COMPLETE documentation then I might consider purchasing them. It's not simply a matter of cost... its a matter of the quality you receive for the cost. Anyone know if Inside Mac is going to be reorganized anytime soon?
lim@iris.ucdavis.edu (Lloyd Lim) (04/04/91)
In article <1991Apr3.164446.9192@potomac.ads.com> jtn@potomac.ads.com (John T. Nelson) writes: >I think the reasons people are reluctant to purchase Inside Mac are >twofold: > >1) Inside Mac is lacking in some information (MultiFinder for example) >and is poorly written and organized. > >2) Cost. Them there is expensive books guys. > >If Apple were to reorganize Inside Mac and include COMPLETE >documentation then I might consider purchasing them. It's not simply >a matter of cost... its a matter of the quality you receive for the >cost. > >Anyone know if Inside Mac is going to be reorganized anytime soon? Actually, yes, I do know. I wasn't put under non-disclosure and I don't think it's a secret. To answer your questions: 1) It will include most or all of the stuff that is separate now - that includes MultiFinder, IM VI, System 7.0, tech notes, etc. It will be available in several forms and it will be updatable (yeah!). The second edition is huge! 2) It will get even more expensive. There are more volumes (if you go that way) and updating will, of course, cost you money. The quality of the documentation should improve (but I also think the format of the original IM was very good). I think despite attempts to make it easier to understand, the second edition will be even more out of reach for novices - mostly because of the vast amount of information involved. Beginners have a hard time getting an overall view of the whole picture and knowing which specific parts they should read. I could be wrong because I think the second edition contains some parts that address this problem. There's no question the initial learning curve for Mac programming is very steep. I have no idea when it will be out although I would guess at the same time as the System 7.0 release or soon after. Or maybe IM VI will come out at release and the second edition will be a year or so later. I dunno... +++ Lloyd Lim Internet: lim@iris.eecs.ucdavis.edu America Online: LimUnltd Compuserve: 72647,660 US Mail: 215 Lysle Leach Hall, U.C. Davis, Davis, CA 95616
tcwan@umiami.ir.miami.edu (04/04/91)
In article <8697@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>, lim@iris.ucdavis.edu (Lloyd Lim) writes: [stuff deleted] > 1) It will include most or all of the stuff that is separate now - that > includes MultiFinder, IM VI, System 7.0, tech notes, etc. It will be > available in several forms and it will be updatable (yeah!). The second > edition is huge! [more stuff about cost and complexity of docs deleted] > +++ > Lloyd Lim Internet: lim@iris.eecs.ucdavis.edu > America Online: LimUnltd > Compuserve: 72647,660 > US Mail: 215 Lysle Leach Hall, U.C. Davis, Davis, CA 95616 Does the new version of Inside Mac include prototypes of C-style function calls? I know it's quite easy to convert it from the pascal definitions, but it's easy to miss sometimes (considering that I'm still struggling to find out where things are :) ) tcwan@umiami.miami.edu {novice mac programmer} ps: The Macintosh Programming Primer vols I & II are great!!!
keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (04/05/91)
In article <1991Apr3.164446.9192@potomac.ads.com> jtn@potomac.ads.com (John T. Nelson) writes: > >I think the reasons people are reluctant to purchase Inside Mac are >twofold: > >1) Inside Mac is lacking in some information (MultiFinder for example) >and is poorly written and organized. Given the objective of Inside Mac to be an encyclopedic reference rather than a "sitting by the fire" novel, what's wrong with the way it's written? And other than the fact that relevent pieces of information are strewn across 5 volumes, what's wrong with the way it's organized? Within each volume, I think that the information is very well organized. > >2) Cost. Them there is expensive books guys. Possibly, but they are also the most _complete_ books. Any other "How to program the Mac" genre book necessarily skips on all the details and feature in order to present you with something that you can wrap your head around. And when you're done with those primers, you will need a complete, unabridged reference to continue. Only Inside Mac fills that role. Besides, they aren't all that expensive. You can get all 5 volumes from APDA for $125. I paid more for Knuth. On a per volumes basis, that $25 per volume, which is cheaper than most other computer texts. On a per page basis, that's about 5 cents per page. Heck, magazines pay authors that amount per word! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. INTERNET: keith@apple.com UUCP: {decwrl, hoptoad, nsc, sun, amdahl}!apple!keith "But where the senses fail us, reason must step in." - Galileo
Jim.Spencer@p510.f22.n282.z1.edgar.mn.org (Jim Spencer) (04/05/91)
Keith Rollin writes in a message to All KR> Please don't forget that Inside Mac is not the _only_ source KR> of technical information from Apple. Inside Mac is augmented KR> by Technotes, which are updated once every two months. To get KR> these technotes, you can either pay a small amount to APDA (you KR> don't even have to be an APDA member) or you can download them KR> from any of the numerous electronic services that archive them. KR> If you don't want to pay the cost of download time, then you KR> can freely copy from any of your friends who have them. You do KR> NOT have to be a "$600-a-year or whatever registered developer" KR> to get timely and updated information. To take it a step further, if you have a CDRom, you could get a subscription to develop magazine for something like $30. Each CD in the magazine includes both SpInside Mac, the HyperCard version of Inside Mac, as well as the Tech Notes (in both stack and text forms), the Q&A Stack, and the User Interface Notes (in both Stack and text forms) not to mention all of the DTS Sample code. You can even just buy the last back issue for $10 and you will get on the CD all the previous issues with their sample code to boot.
wilde@tigger.Colorado.EDU (Nick Wilde) (04/06/91)
In article <51172@apple.Apple.COM> keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: >Besides, they aren't all that expensive. You can get all 5 volumes >from APDA for $125. I paid more for Knuth. On a per volumes basis, >that $25 per volume, which is cheaper than most other computer texts. Of course, you're right $125 just isn't all that bad, especially when books like Foley and Van Dam's "Interactive Graphics" Volume go for ~$75 now (Yow !). But you have to remember, to a college student $125 can be a LOT of money (heck, that'll keep you in beer for a week :)) In musing about this, it struck me that there's one class of users, exemplified by a lot of the folks right here, that Apple falls somewhat short of supporting well, and where Apple could stand to gain an awful lot by doing a better job. I'm referring, of course, to the "student developer" - those guys out there (and you know who you are) who bring us wonderful shareware and freeware on a shoestring. Seems like Apple has done an awful lot to get the Mac into the university setting through academic discounts for hardware, research grants, etc. - Wouldn't it be great to sponser the student hackers out there a bit ? The kind of thing I'm thinking about is akin to the ACM's "student membership" - for a reduced fee, and with proper documentation that someone is a full time student, they get, perhaps, a better line to new documention, reduced prices on developement tools, that sort of thing... Well, just some (admittedly not too well thought out) ramblings on my part... -Nick -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nick Wilde wilde@cs.colorado.edu
urlichs@smurf.sub.org (Matthias Urlichs) (04/07/91)
In comp.sys.mac.programmer, article <51172@apple.Apple.COM>, keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: < In article <1991Apr3.164446.9192@potomac.ads.com> jtn@potomac.ads.com (John T. Nelson) writes: < > < >1) Inside Mac is lacking in some information (MultiFinder for example) < >and is poorly written and organized. < < Given the objective of Inside Mac to be an encyclopedic reference < rather than a "sitting by the fire" novel, what's wrong with the way < it's written? And other than the fact that relevent pieces of < information are strewn across 5 volumes, what's wrong with the way it's < organized? Within each volume, I think that the information is very < well organized. < Well, the lack of information is pretty much covered with IM VI. Unfortunately, there's still four volumes (counting 1-3 as one) and 280-odd technotes. What seems to be needed is a good text retrieval system. SPInside Mac is a good start, but it's not quite there yet. The problem is that no such system can freely associate between what the programmer wants to do and what Inside Mac says, the way a human can. _Really_ reading IM every year or so can in fact give you a reputation for that kind of thing because all your lazy friends phone in with some obscure problem and get Manager & Trap (or should I say "Chapter & Verse" ;-) information back. Though I have to admit that I haven't had the time to do the required "really reading" work (and I fo mean the sitting-down-and- concentrate type of reading, as opposed to when-being-unable-to-sleep type) with IM VI yet. -- Matthias Urlichs -- urlichs@smurf.sub.org -- urlichs@smurf.ira.uka.de /(o\ Humboldtstrasse 7 - 7500 Karlsruhe 1 - FRG -- +49-721-621127(0700-2330) \o)/
wdh@well.sf.ca.us (Bill Hofmann) (04/07/91)
In article <1991Apr3.164446.9192@potomac.ads.com> jtn@potomac.ads.com (John T. Nelson) writes: >1) Inside Mac is lacking in some information (MultiFinder for example) >and is poorly written and organized. Yup, it has the problem of being a document of a system that has evolved over time. Without being looseleaf from the start, it's pretty much impossible. However, that's what tech notes are for. >2) Cost. Them there is expensive books guys. Have you priced technical books lately? 25 bucks is cheap. Of course, you need Vol 1, II, and IV anyway, so there's $75. >Anyone know if Inside Mac is going to be reorganized anytime soon? I recently participated in a focus group about IM 2nd Edition, which looks substantially revised. Better? Time will tell. There's a real tension between a tutorial or cookbook and a complete reference. I don't think there's another complete (or nearly as complete) reference for Mac programming available. IM is not at all useful for learning, though, so there are any one of a number of good books for learning. I personally like Scott Knaster's books, but there are plenty of others. -Bill Hofmann
zben@ni.umd.edu (Ben Cranston) (04/08/91)
It's all well and good to claim that a $30.00 subscription to Develop gets you the CDs, but it ain't necessarily so. I got the CDs in the first couple issues only, but not current issues. The "Winter 1991" issue (volume 2 issue 1) came yesterday, and it contained a card with this written on it: "Because you're an Apple Partner or Associate, you will receive your copy of Developer Essentials, a collection of essential developer tools and information, in a folder on your Developer CD series, Volume VI. All other copies of Develop contain the Developer Essentials disk bound into the journal." Only problem is: I'm *not* a partner or associate, so I'm out in the cold.
ksand@Apple.COM (Kent Sandvik) (04/09/91)
In article <670906559.0@mmug.edgar.mn.org> Jim.Spencer@p510.f22.n282.z1.edgar.mn.org (Jim Spencer) writes: >To take it a step further, if you have a CDRom, you could get a subscription to >develop magazine for something like $30. Each CD in the magazine includes both >SpInside Mac, the HyperCard version of Inside Mac, as well as the Tech Notes >(in both stack and text forms), the Q&A Stack, and the User Interface Notes (in >both Stack and text forms) not to mention all of the DTS Sample code. You can even just buy the last back issue for $10 and you will get on the CD all the >previous issues with their sample code to boot. ...and you could attach the CD-ROM unit to a AppleShare File Server, and a whole work group could make use of the information. The throughput is not super-fast, but it's reasonable. Kent -- Kent Sandvik, DTS junkie
schorsch@oxy.edu (Brent Schorsch) (04/09/91)
In article <1991Apr6.063131.3616@colorado.edu> wilde@tigger.Colorado.EDU (Nick Wilde) writes: [stuff Deleted] >In musing about this, it struck me that there's one class of users, >exemplified by a lot of the folks right here, that Apple falls somewhat >short of supporting well, and where Apple could stand to gain an >awful lot by doing a better job. > >I'm referring, of course, to the "student developer" - those guys >out there (and you know who you are) who bring us wonderful shareware >and freeware on a shoestring. Seems like Apple has done an awful >lot to get the Mac into the university setting through academic >discounts for hardware, research grants, etc. - Wouldn't it be >great to sponser the student hackers out there a bit ? > >The kind of thing I'm thinking about is akin to the ACM's "student >membership" - for a reduced fee, and with proper documentation >that someone is a full time student, they get, perhaps, a better line >to new documention, reduced prices on developement tools, that sort >of thing... This would be great! I am a "student developer" in this sense & it is incredibly frustrating to see all of these great development products available, but so expensive. I Have IM, APDA membership, and MPW 3.0.. I do not currently have the funds for an upgrade, I use ThinkC most of the time anyway. If there was some sort of "student developer" who would recieve registered- developer only products and/or substantial educational discounts to apple development software, I would be one of the first in line to get it. Well, Apple, Are you listening? How about it? -Brent ! "He was strangely relieved about Brent Schorsch ! getting rid of his old fridge and schorsch@oxy.edu ! looked forward to enjoying a new phase ! of fridge ownership" -Douglas Adams
Lawson.English@p88.f15.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Lawson English) (04/09/91)
Ben Cranston writes in a message to All
BC> Only problem is: I'm *not* a partner or associate, so I'm out
BC> in the cold.
Nonsense. Simply write (or call) and tell them. If they insist that you are,
then ask them to send you the latest developer CD. (If you get THAT, something
is seriously wrong...)
Lawson
--
Uucp: ...{gatech,ames,rutgers}!ncar!asuvax!stjhmc!300!15.88!Lawson.English
Internet: Lawson.English@p88.f15.n300.z1.fidonet.orgLawson.English@p88.f15.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Lawson English) (04/11/91)
Brent Schorsch writes in a message to All
BS> If there was some sort of "student developer" who would recieve
BS> registered- developer only products and/or substantial educational
BS> discounts to apple development software, I would be one of the
BS> first in line to get it.
BS> Well, Apple, Are you listening? How about it?
Second the motion!
Lawson (the perennial student)
--
Uucp: ...{gatech,ames,rutgers}!ncar!asuvax!stjhmc!300!15.88!Lawson.English
Internet: Lawson.English@p88.f15.n300.z1.fidonet.orgesink@turia.dit.upm.es (Eric Wayne Sink) (04/16/91)
In article <710@gate.oxy.edu> schorsch@oxy.edu writes: >If there was some sort of "student developer" who would recieve registered- >developer only products and/or substantial educational discounts to apple >development software, I would be one of the first in line to get it. > >Well, Apple, Are you listening? How about it? > >-Brent > ! "He was strangely relieved about >Brent Schorsch ! getting rid of his old fridge and >schorsch@oxy.edu ! looked forward to enjoying a new phase > ! of fridge ownership" -Douglas Adams And I would be second - this is one of the best ideas I've heard in a good long time. All those Macs that get sold on University campuses get used for a lot more than just writing term papers. I second the call : Apple, how about student discounts on development tools ? Eric Eric W. Sink | "If no one is criticizing |Opinions Departamento de Telematica | your work, it is possible |mine - Universidad Politecnica de Madrid| that you are not doing |all of esink@turia.dit.upm.es | anything." -George Verwer |them.
6600dtam@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (DogCow) (04/17/91)
In article <1991Apr16.104541.13554@dit.upm.es> esink@turia.dit.upm.es (Eric Wayne Sink) writes: >In article <710@gate.oxy.edu> schorsch@oxy.edu writes: >>If there was some sort of "student developer" who would recieve registered- >>developer only products and/or substantial educational discounts to apple >>development software, I would be one of the first in line to get it. >> >>Well, Apple, Are you listening? How about it? >> >And I would be second - this is one of the best ideas I've heard >in a good long time. All those Macs that get sold on University >campuses get used for a lot more than just writing term papers. >I second the call : Apple, how about student discounts on >development tools ? I have been pushing the Apple Student Rep. here for about 6 months for student-priced development tools. I know that some schools site licence devlopment tools....for instance Carnegie Mellon. I was told by a friend of mine going there that MacApp software ONLY is ~$30....manuals can be purchased separately. The same discount apparently applied to MPW products as well. How about a university purchase program for APDA tools? Its about time Apple recognised the genius of NeXT's bundling of devlopment tools.... just my $.02. -- = Marc Tamsky 6600dtam@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu 6600dtam@UCSBUXA (bitnet) =
jtgorman@cs.arizona.edu (J. Taggart Gorman) (04/19/91)
In article <10612@hub.ucsb.edu> 6600dtam@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (DogCow) writes: >In article <1991Apr16.104541.13554@dit.upm.es> esink@turia.dit.upm.es (Eric Wayne Sink) writes: >>In article <710@gate.oxy.edu> schorsch@oxy.edu writes: [lots of stuff about student developers and discounts deleted...] >How about a university purchase program for APDA tools? >Its about time Apple recognised the genius of NeXT's bundling of devlopment >tools.... Heck ya! Put me down on both of these lists! I'd love to be a registered developer or even just purchase MacApp and MPW, buuuuuut.... I'm a student and I can barely afford to purchase IM. That's my major goal in life right now. Think C and Think Pascal can be bought with Student ID here for a price that is an insult to the rest of the world : ~$90. Hey Apple! Follow the lead of you software producers and tap into the market of college developers! | J. Taggart Gorman Jr. | "I'm a no rust build up man myself." | | -Christian Slater | jtgorman@caslon.cs.arizona.edu | in 'Heathers'
vkwx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (04/21/91)
In article <1991Apr16.104541.13554@dit.upm.es>, esink@turia.dit.upm.es (Eric Wayne Sink) writes: > I second the call : Apple, how about student discounts on > development tools ? > > Eric > > > Eric W. Sink | "If no one is criticizing |Opinions > Departamento de Telematica | your work, it is possible |mine - > Universidad Politecnica de Madrid| that you are not doing |all of > esink@turia.dit.upm.es | anything." -George Verwer |them. I third it! College students practically have to take out another bank loan to buy MPW. Ed Swierk