rickf@Apple.COM (Rick Fleischman) (04/16/91)
MOVED OVER PR NEWSWIRE AT 9:00 AM, PDT, MONDAY, APRIL 15, 1991.
Contact:
Jackie Promes
Apple Computer, Inc
(408) 974-3609
Apple Makes Macintosh Programming
Easier For New Developers
"Developer Resource Kit" and "Getting Started" Bundles Provide
Low Cost, Self-Help Tools for Apple Developers
CUPERTINO, California--April 15, 1991--Apple Computer, Inc.'s
Developer Group today announced the availability of the "Developer
Resource Kit" and "Getting Started" bundles, cost-effective packages
of self-help development support tools for people new to Macintosh
computer programming. Also announced today was the availability of
AppleLink, Apple's online information and communication network, to
any Apple development customer. These new self-support products are
made available from Apple through APDA (Apple Programmers and
Developers Association).
"These new tool bundles are a complete collection of Macintosh
technical resources for both new and existing Macintosh developers,"
said Kirk Loevner, director of the Apple Developer Group. "These
bundles demonstrate Apple's continued commitment to assisting
developers in their initial and ongoing programming efforts."
"Developer Resource Kit"
The Developer Resource Kit provides a complete bundle of the most
valuable self-support tools from Apple's library of development
resources. Developers new to Apple programming, or any developer
desiring up-to-date Apple development information and a connection to
the Apple community, will find the resources they need to help keep
them referenced and informed. The Developer Resource Kit includes
such items as AppleLink, subscriptions to develop, Apple's quarterly
technical journal, and APDAlog, a quarterly product catalog, as well
as coupons for free offers or discounts on future development product
purchases. The individual resource tools contained in this kit
provide developers a convenient and cost-effective bundle.
"Getting Started" in Macintosh Programming
For a limited time, C and Pascal programmers getting started in
Macintosh computer programming can purchase specially priced third-
party language and documentation bundles. For the C programmer,
Apple offers Getting Started in Macintosh C Programming, a package
containing THINK C v. 4.0, as well as four volumes of technical
documentation. For the Pascal programmer, Apple has developed
Getting Started in Macintosh Pascal Programming, which includes THINK
Pascal v. 3.0, Just Enough Pascal and three volumes of technical
documentation. THINK C and THINK Pascal from Symantec Corporation
have been the popular choice for thousands of development customers
getting started in Macintosh programming. Both Getting Started
bundles are available through August 1, 1991.
AppleLink
For the first time, Apple developers and programmers can now
subscribe to AppleLink through APDA. AppleLink provides a direct
connection to the Apple community and access to technical and
marketing information. Special bulletin boards offer access to
development information and the opportunity to exchange ideas with
other developers. AppleLink is currently available to U.S.
developers only as a stand-alone product, or as part of the Developer
Resource Kit.
Availability and Distribution
The Developer Resource Kit, the Getting Started bundles, and
AppleLink are all available immediately from Apple through APDA. In
the U.S., interested developers should call (800) 282-2732. In
Canada, call (800) 637-0029. International developers, call (408)
562-3910.
Contents and Pricing
Developer Resource Kit:
- AppleLink
- Annual subscription to develop, Apple's quarterly technical journal
and CD
- Annual subscription to APDAlog, Apple's development products
catalog
- Developer University course catalog
- Macintosh Directory of Development Services
- Developer Resource Guide
- Coupons for free offers or discounts on future development product
purchases
with AppleLink (U.S.) $125 Part#R0014LL/A
without AppleLink (U.S.) $ 90 Part #R0015LL/A
without AppleLink (Outside U.S.) $110 Part #R0015ZP/A
Getting Started Bundles
Macintosh C Programming $250 Part #B0473LL/A
- THINK C v.4.0 (Symantec Corporation)
- Macintosh C Programming Primer;
Volumes 1-2, by Dave Mark and Cartwright Reed (Addison-Wesley
Publishing Company)
- Human Interface Guidelines, by Apple Computer, Inc. (Addison-
Wesley)
- Macintosh Programming Secrets, by Scott Knaster (Addison-Wesley)
Macintosh Pascal Programming $275 Part #B0472LL/A
- THINK Pascal v. 3.0 (Symantec)
- Just Enough Pascal (Symantec)
- Macintosh Pascal Programming Primer;
Volume 1, by Dave Mark and Cartwright Reed (Addison-Wesley)
- Human Interface Guidelines, by Apple Computer, Inc. (Addison-
Wesley)
- Macintosh Programming Secrets, by Scott Knaster (Addison-Wesley)
AppleLink $ 70 Part #R0049LL/A
- AppleLink software kit
NOTE: AppleLink connect charges are billed separately based on
usage.
-30-
Apple, the Apple logo, Macintosh, AppleLink and APDAlog are
registered trademarks of Apple Computer, Inc. APDA and Develop are
trademarks of Apple Computer, Inc. THINK is a trademark of Symantec
Corporation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick Fleischman
Developer Programs/APDA
Apple Computer, Inc.
e-mail: rickf@apple.com
AppleLink: FLEISCHMAN@applelink.apple.comrickf@Apple.COM (Rick Fleischman) (04/16/91)
MOVED OVER PR NEWSWIRE AT 9:00 AM, PDT, MONDAY, APRIL 15, 1991.
Contact:
Jackie Promes
Apple Computer, Inc
(408) 974-3609
Apple Makes Macintosh Programming
Easier For New Developers
"Developer Resource Kit" and "Getting Started" Bundles Provide
Low Cost, Self-Help Tools for Apple Developers
CUPERTINO, California--April 15, 1991--Apple Computer, Inc.'s
Developer Group today announced the availability of the "Developer
Resource Kit" and "Getting Started" bundles, cost-effective packages
of self-help development support tools for people new to Macintosh
computer programming. Also announced today was the availability of
AppleLink, Apple's online information and communication network, to
any Apple development customer. These new self-support products are
made available from Apple through APDA (Apple Programmers and
Developers Association).
"These new tool bundles are a complete collection of Macintosh
technical resources for both new and existing Macintosh developers,"
said Kirk Loevner, director of the Apple Developer Group. "These
bundles demonstrate Apple's continued commitment to assisting
developers in their initial and ongoing programming efforts."
"Developer Resource Kit"
The Developer Resource Kit provides a complete bundle of the most
valuable self-support tools from Apple's library of development
resources. Developers new to Apple programming, or any developer
desiring up-to-date Apple development information and a connection to
the Apple community, will find the resources they need to help keep
them referenced and informed. The Developer Resource Kit includes
such items as AppleLink, subscriptions to develop, Apple's quarterly
technical journal, and APDAlog, a quarterly product catalog, as well
as coupons for free offers or discounts on future development product
purchases. The individual resource tools contained in this kit
provide developers a convenient and cost-effective bundle.
"Getting Started" in Macintosh Programming
For a limited time, C and Pascal programmers getting started in
Macintosh computer programming can purchase specially priced third-
party language and documentation bundles. For the C programmer,
Apple offers Getting Started in Macintosh C Programming, a package
containing THINK C v. 4.0, as well as four volumes of technical
documentation. For the Pascal programmer, Apple has developed
Getting Started in Macintosh Pascal Programming, which includes THINK
Pascal v. 3.0, Just Enough Pascal and three volumes of technical
documentation. THINK C and THINK Pascal from Symantec Corporation
have been the popular choice for thousands of development customers
getting started in Macintosh programming. Both Getting Started
bundles are available through August 1, 1991.
AppleLink
For the first time, Apple developers and programmers can now
subscribe to AppleLink through APDA. AppleLink provides a direct
connection to the Apple community and access to technical and
marketing information. Special bulletin boards offer access to
development information and the opportunity to exchange ideas with
other developers. AppleLink is currently available to U.S.
developers only as a stand-alone product, or as part of the Developer
Resource Kit.
Availability and Distribution
The Developer Resource Kit, the Getting Started bundles, and
AppleLink are all available immediately from Apple through APDA. In
the U.S., interested developers should call (800) 282-2732. In
Canada, call (800) 637-0029. International developers, call (408)
562-3910.
Contents and Pricing
Developer Resource Kit:
- AppleLink
- Annual subscription to develop, Apple's quarterly technical journal
and CD
- Annual subscription to APDAlog, Apple's development products
catalog
- Developer University course catalog
- Macintosh Directory of Development Services
- Developer Resource Guide
- Coupons for free offers or discounts on future development product
purchases
with AppleLink (U.S.) $125 Part#R0014LL/A
without AppleLink (U.S.) $ 90 Part #R0015LL/A
without AppleLink (Outside U.S.) $110 Part #R0015ZP/A
Getting Started Bundles
Macintosh C Programming $250 Part #B0473LL/A
- THINK C v.4.0 (Symantec Corporation)
- Macintosh C Programming Primer;
Volumes 1-2, by Dave Mark and Cartwright Reed (Addison-Wesley
Publishing Company)
- Human Interface Guidelines, by Apple Computer, Inc. (Addison-
Wesley)
- Macintosh Programming Secrets, by Scott Knaster (Addison-Wesley)
Macintosh Pascal Programming $275 Part #B0472LL/A
- THINK Pascal v. 3.0 (Symantec)
- Just Enough Pascal (Symantec)
- Macintosh Pascal Programming Primer;
Volume 1, by Dave Mark and Cartwright Reed (Addison-Wesley)
- Human Interface Guidelines, by Apple Computer, Inc. (Addison-
Wesley)
- Macintosh Programming Secrets, by Scott Knaster (Addison-Wesley)
AppleLink $ 70 Part #R0049LL/A
- AppleLink software kit
NOTE: AppleLink connect charges are billed separately based on
usage.
-30-
Apple, the Apple logo, Macintosh, AppleLink and APDAlog are
registered trademarks of Apple Computer, Inc. APDA and Develop are
trademarks of Apple Computer, Inc. THINK is a trademark of Symantec
Corporation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick Fleischman
Developer Programs/APDA
Apple Computer, Inc.
e-mail: rickf@apple.com
AppleLink: FLEISCHMAN@applelink.apple.comfdm@WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM (Frank D. Malczewski) (04/16/91)
Is there some method to this madness, or did you just throw darts to figure out what these things were gonna cost? 8^) --Frank Malczewski (fdm@wlv.imsd.contel.com)
keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (04/16/91)
In article <1991Apr16.040127.5260@wlbr.imsd.contel.com> fdm@WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM (Frank D. Malczewski) writes: > >Is there some method to this madness, or did you just throw darts to >figure out what these things were gonna cost? Is there some method to your complaint, or are you just griping? I mean, I don't understand if you are complaining that the prices are too high, too low, scattered all over the place, or what. I used to work in the group that is providing these programs. Because I am no longer there, I don't know what discussions went into the pricing, but I have a pretty good idea. The first consideration is the price of the components of each package. For instance, sez here that the Mac C Programming package consists of THINK C, Mac Programming Primer, Human Interface Guidelines, and Mac Programming Secrets. THINK C runs $200-250, and you can figure about $20 for each book. This means that the total price should be in the area of $280-$330. The actual price is $250. Now, this sort of leads to the second consideration, which is the discount that Apple gives you. THINK C by itself costs $249 from APDA. That means that Apple is throwing in 4 books for $1. The third consideration is "perceived value". The prices of some of the packages have to be set to let people know how valuable the package is, not just according to how much the materials cost. For instance, the self-paced programming courses were originally at some ridiculously low price, like $99 or $199 (I can't remember which). However, no one was buying them! When we asked around, we found out that customers didn't think that such a package could be any good at that low of a price. So Apple raised the price and the course started selling more briskly. And the customers we've talked to _still_ say that the packages are a steal! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. INTERNET: keith@apple.com UUCP: {decwrl, hoptoad, nsc, sun, amdahl}!apple!keith "But where the senses fail us, reason must step in." - Galileo
dave@PRC.Unisys.COM (David Lee Matuszek) (04/18/91)
In article <51554@apple.Apple.COM> keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: >The first consideration is the price of the components of each >package. For instance, sez here that the Mac C Programming package >consists of THINK C, Mac Programming Primer, Human Interface >Guidelines, and Mac Programming Secrets. THINK C runs $200-250, and you >can figure about $20 for each book. This means that the total price >should be in the area of $280-$330. The actual price is $250. > >Now, this sort of leads to the second consideration, which is the >discount that Apple gives you. THINK C by itself costs $249 from APDA. >That means that Apple is throwing in 4 books for $1. This is totally bogus. You can get THINK C from MacWarehouse for $165. Plus, you get overnight delivery instead of six to eight weeks. I read my APDAlog to find out what's available, but I'd never buy anything from APDA if there's any other source at all. I saw the "announcement," too, and chucked it. It looks like APDA has lumped together a more-or-less random collection of things, called them "Starter Kits," and reduced their prices to nearly street prices. > buying them! When we asked around, we found out that customers didn't > think that such a package could be any good at that low of a price. So > Apple raised the price and the course started selling more briskly. Don't tell me, let me guess--you were talking to executives, not programmers, right? Sorry if I'm stepping on your toes, but I don't think you'll get much support from this newsgroup. People here tend to know a good price from a bad price. And I doubt that anyone here was put off by $199 (or even $99) being "too low" a price; speaking strictly for myself, I looked at those courses a while back, figured they were probably pretty good, and decided I couldn't afford them. -- Dave Matuszek (dave@prc.unisys.com) I don't speak for my employer. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | When I was young, my family bought a color TV. Our neigbors, who | | were poorer, had only a black-and-white set. They bought a piece of | | cellophane, red on top, yellow in the middle, and blue on the bottom, | | and taped it over their screen, so they could claim that they had a | | color TV, too. | | Now there's Windows 3.0. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------
mxmora@unix.SRI.COM (Matt Mora) (04/18/91)
In article <51554@apple.Apple.COM> keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: >The first consideration is the price of the components of each >package. For instance, sez here that the Mac C Programming package >consists of THINK C, Mac Programming Primer, Human Interface >Guidelines, and Mac Programming Secrets. THINK C runs $200-250, and you >can figure about $20 for each book. This means that the total price >should be in the area of $280-$330. The actual price is $250. > >Now, this sort of leads to the second consideration, which is the >discount that Apple gives you. THINK C by itself costs $249 from APDA. >That means that Apple is throwing in 4 books for $1. WOW! I guess APDA is making a pretty penny on THINK C. I bought my copy from MacConnection and it was around $165.00. Thats $84.00 dollar difference. Divided by four books equals $21 a book. No bargin there. I can't understand why Apple's developing products are SO expensive. When it is the final product from us, the developers, that helps them sell computers. I just received another ploy from apple. $6000 for phone sex, Oops... I mean technical support help line. I think the phone number is 1-976-cal-appl. :-) JUST KIDDING. SMILELY SMILELY Realy $6000 for phone help. Now where did apple come up with that price? Why doesn't apple just use a 900 number? They could charge 0.75 a minute. That woould be like getting a consultant for $45.00 an hour. Thats not to bad. -- ___________________________________________________________ Matthew Mora | my Mac Matt_Mora@sri.com SRI International | my unix mxmora@unix.sri.com ___________________________________________________________
keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (04/19/91)
In article <17258@burdvax.PRC.Unisys.COM> dave@PRC.Unisys.COM (David Lee Matuszek) writes: >In article <51554@apple.Apple.COM> keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: > >> buying them! When we asked around, we found out that customers didn't >> think that such a package could be any good at that low of a price. So >> Apple raised the price and the course started selling more briskly. > >Don't tell me, let me guess--you were talking to executives, not >programmers, right? Nope, we talked to real programmers. Most of them were ones that attended classes at our Developer University (which should prove that they were real programmers). However, those people we talked probably respresent a cross-section of the developer community that is different than the one on this net, to wit: professional programmers with incomes, as opposed to starving students with growing loans. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. INTERNET: keith@apple.com UUCP: {decwrl, hoptoad, nsc, sun, amdahl}!apple!keith "But where the senses fail us, reason must step in." - Galileo
keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (04/19/91)
In article <23337@unix.SRI.COM> mxmora@unix.sri.com (Matt Mora) writes: >In article <51554@apple.Apple.COM> keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: > >>The first consideration is the price of the components of each >>package. For instance, sez here that the Mac C Programming package >>consists of THINK C, Mac Programming Primer, Human Interface >>Guidelines, and Mac Programming Secrets. THINK C runs $200-250, and you >>can figure about $20 for each book. This means that the total price >>should be in the area of $280-$330. The actual price is $250. >> >>Now, this sort of leads to the second consideration, which is the >>discount that Apple gives you. THINK C by itself costs $249 from APDA. >>That means that Apple is throwing in 4 books for $1. > >WOW! I guess APDA is making a pretty penny on THINK C. I bought my >copy from MacConnection and it was around $165.00. Thats $84.00 dollar >difference. Divided by four books equals $21 a book. No bargin there. To be honest, I don't know what kind of deal APDA has with Symantec, and where all the money goes to. I will also be honest and say that I didn't know how far off $249 was from the mail-order price. Does anyone know what the average store price for THINK C is? > >I can't understand why Apple's developing products are SO expensive. >When it is the final product from us, the developers, that helps >them sell computers. I'd like to get some real world input on this one. Let's compare ETO with similar packages in the industry. I'm talking Sun, MicroSoft, NeXT, HP, whatever. On ETO, you get the following items: - Several versions of the complete MPW (which includes Shell, C & Pascal compilers, Assembler, linker, resource editor, and about 100 other tools and scripts). - Macsbug 6.2 (includes sample dcmds) - SourceBug (new direct manipulation source level debugger) - Discipline - ResEdit 2.1 - SADE (not an impulse item, but it's there...) - MacApp (2.0.1 and experimental 3.0 versions) - MacApp documentation (on line) - AppleLink archives of conversations from from MacApp.Tech$ and CPlus$ over the last few years. - Testing tools (like Virtual User) - System 7.0 - 411 (MPW on line help - contains all of Inside Mac, Technotes and MPW documentation). - Developer Essentials (All of the DTS goodies - sample code, technote stacks, FAQ stacks, preliminary and suplementary documentation, electronic versions of "develop", etc.) All this for $995 for 4 quarterly updates. I've talked with other developers with experience on other systems. They say that even a small part of what I've listed above would run $5000-10,000 on other platforms. That doesn't even begin to address the quarterly update issue. I realize that competition may be stiff with the NeXT offering. But I would really like to see an item by item comparison of the above with what other companies have to offer. Seriously. I also realize that putting together the "mondo does everything has everything" package is not what everyone wants. Especially on this net where all most people want to do is compile a simple program. But then, it's not always possible for a single manufacturere to be everything for everybody. For example, Mercedes-Benz doesn't make a small car to my liking. Similarly, my dad would never by a Honda because they don't get shitty enough gas mileage. This is not to say that Apple scorns the small developer. It's just that Symantec and Apple have both carved out their own niches in a marketplace that supports both: Symantec caters to the small (and even not-so-small) developer, and Apple provides the Mercedes of development systems -- simply because that's what a large number of our customers want. > >I just received another ploy from apple. $6000 for phone sex, Oops... >I mean technical support help line. I think the phone number is >1-976-cal-appl. :-) JUST KIDDING. SMILELY SMILELY > >Realy $6000 for phone help. Now where did apple come up with that price? >Why doesn't apple just use a 900 number? They could charge 0.75 a minute. >That woould be like getting a consultant for $45.00 an hour. Thats not >to bad. As Brian Bechtel just noted, this $6000/yr service should not be confused with the support DTS gives. I think that it's for in-house developers at large corporations. These are the types of establishments that a) expect a high-level of support and interaction with Apple, and b) can pay the big bucks for it. Having at one time worked in that part of Apple, I can say with a high level of assurance that the $6000 figure was arrived at after doing a lot of research into the kinds of people who would be using the service and talking with them. I think that it's based on the A/UX phone support that they've had for years, and which charges a comparable price. This is definitely not the support program "for the rest of us", nor is it intended to be. It is the support program for the people who say (and they _have_ said this) "This is what I want from Apple, and I'll pay any amount for it." For the rest of us, there's DTS (which at $600 is a steal -- did you ever price support from MicroSoft?) and this net. >___________________________________________________________ >Matthew Mora | my Mac Matt_Mora@sri.com >SRI International | my unix mxmora@unix.sri.com >___________________________________________________________ -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. INTERNET: keith@apple.com UUCP: {decwrl, hoptoad, nsc, sun, amdahl}!apple!keith "But where the senses fail us, reason must step in." - Galileo
laird@chinet.chi.il.us (Laird J. Heal) (04/19/91)
Yes, that "announcement" was in extraordinarily poor taste. I am simply astounded that it was accepted into comp.sys.mac.announce. I stopped subscribing to the APDAlog because it was nothing more than $20 for Apple to send me their advertisements. This "Developer Starter Kit" is nothing more than a similar, $125, version of the same. Even as an Apple Associate you have no access to what is most desperately needed, namely answers to the not-so-documented questions. I finally gave up on my own particular use of Offscreen Pixmaps and wrote a local version of CopyBits(), limited because I did not need color translation and because I will write my own scaling/rotation at a later time. If I had access to MACDEV like the old days, maybe I could have worked it out; for the stuff to the screen, I guess I should turn MacsBug loose on Photoshop... It seems like, as time goes on, the more you pay Apple, the less you get in return. -- Laird J. Heal The Usenet is dead! Here: laird@chinet.chi.il.us Long live the Usenet!
wilde@tigger.Colorado.EDU (Nick Wilde) (04/20/91)
In article <51696@apple.Apple.COM> keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: > >Nope, we talked to real programmers. Most of them were ones that >attended classes at our Developer University (which should prove that >they were real programmers). > Now theres your mistake ! Real programmers don't go to "Developer University", any more than they read documentation ! They're to busy with their heads in the code for any of that nonsense... Oh, BTW :):):) Seriousely, though, it seems to me as though your sampling may have been pre-disposed to those who like to pay higher prices ... I mean, how much does "Developer University" cost anyway ? -Nick -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nick Wilde wilde@cs.colorado.edu
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (opcode ranger) (04/20/91)
In article <51699@apple.Apple.COM>, keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: [...] > I'd like to get some real world input on this one. Let's compare > ETO with similar packages in the industry. I'm talking Sun, MicroSoft, > NeXT, HP, whatever. [description of ETO contents] > All this for $995 for 4 quarterly updates. I've talked with other > developers with experience on other systems. They say that even a small > part of what I've listed above would run $5000-10,000 on other > platforms. That doesn't even begin to address the quarterly update > issue. Add, of course, the $600 for the CD-ROM reader. That comes out to about $1600, which is a fair amount of money. I think it's fair to add in that expense, since we're talking about what a developer needs to get Apple's development package. Since Apple doesn't included a CD-ROM reader in its Macs (yet), you have to buy it. If you're an independent developer, as I am, that's a non-trivial expense. > > I realize that competition may be stiff with the NeXT offering. But I > would really like to see an item by item comparison of the above with > what other companies have to offer. Seriously. I believe that Next includes fairly substantial development tools with each computer (although I don't think they have a source level debugger). I don't think Apple would -- or should -- do that, but it is something to consider when comparing the relative ease with which developers can obtain development tools on the two platforms. I think that there's a fair amount of difference between big corporations and small developers. I've done work for firms to whom $10k was no big deal; if I need to spend $1000 on equipment purchase, that's a major investment. I'm not sure how Apple should approach this dichotomy, but the more support/tools they can provide to more developers, the better. Robert -- ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
d88-jwa@byse.nada.kth.se (Jon W{tte) (04/21/91)
In article <51699@apple.Apple.COM> keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes:
marketplace that supports both: Symantec caters to the small (and even
not-so-small) developer, and Apple provides the Mercedes of development
systems -- simply because that's what a large number of our customers
Well, I don't want a mercedes, I want a BMW. Mercedeses are big and
clunky, and the Bavarian cars offer the same luxury but a _lot_ more
joy of driving. The VW Golf G60 (i.e. Think C) is getting too small.
The closest I've got is Gnu C under A/UX, but gdb dumps core over all
the typedefs in a "mac" program. The native cc won't even support
ANSI function declarations ( int main ( int argc , char * argv [ ] ) ; )
Maybe a third niche to carve out ? I have been, on and off, thinking
about writing my own compiler (there is a decent ANSI C grammar on the
net) but it't too much work and I have to live of something while doing
it...
'nuff said. The less you understood the better :-)
--
I remain: h+@nada.kth.se (Jon W{tte) (Yes, a brace !)
"It's not entirely useless. It came in this great cardboard box !" - Calvin
"Life should be more like TV. I think all women should wear tight clothes,
and all men should carry powerful handguns" - Calvin, againkeith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (04/21/91)
In article <1991Apr19.100952.8759@chinet.chi.il.us> laird@chinet.chi.il.us (Laird J. Heal) writes: >Yes, that "announcement" was in extraordinarily poor taste. I am simply >astounded that it was accepted into comp.sys.mac.announce. > >I stopped subscribing to the APDAlog because it was nothing more than >$20 for Apple to send me their advertisements. This "Developer Starter >Kit" is nothing more than a similar, $125, version of the same. Absolutely false! APDAlog is also blatant advertising for many 3rd party products, too! :-) Actually, I don't think I should kid about APDA or the APDAlog. APDA was _not_ set up as a way for Apple to make a quick buck. It was a way to make development tools available to anyone who wanted them. I hope that many people recognize the "Developer Resource Kit" for what Apple intends it to be. Often goes up the cry "why doesn't Apple support me in my development efforts!" Well, Apple does (see below), and this is just another way that it is trying to help. If you think that Usenet is a great avenue for support, you should see what you get on an electronic service _dedicated_ to the Apple II and Macintosh like AppleLink. Yes, it costs some money, but doesn't everything? Do you think that Usenet is free? If you're a student, what do you think your student fees are for? > >Even as an Apple Associate you have no access to what is most desperately >needed, namely answers to the not-so-documented questions. I finally >gave up on my own particular use of Offscreen Pixmaps and wrote a local >version of CopyBits(), limited because I did not need color translation >and because I will write my own scaling/rotation at a later time. If I >had access to MACDEV like the old days, maybe I could have worked it out; >for the stuff to the screen, I guess I should turn MacsBug loose on >Photoshop... > >It seems like, as time goes on, the more you pay Apple, the less you get >in return. I would definitely have to disagree with this! When I first started working in DTS (Apple II and Macintosh sides), all we ever did was answer E-mails and write technotes. That was it. However, we realized that with the growing number of developers for Apple products, that kind of support wouldn't be sufficient. Soon, there would be more developers that any amount of DTS staff could support. Since then, DTS has put together many different ways of supporting developers. To name a few: - Developer Hotline (it used to answer simple administrative questions. Now also answers technical questions for the beginning programmer). - SpInside Mac (Inside Macintosh, inside your Macintosh!) - Technote stack (all Mac technotes in a HyperCard stack) - Q & A stack (FAQ) (By the way, the above three stacks are all linked together and cross-referenced) - The Developer CD series (now in its 6th edition, contains all the tecnical documentation and resources we could find). - DTS sample code (25 sample on how to do many common and not so common things on the Mac. Several of these show how to manipulate offscreen pixmaps, and quite likely could have helped you in your own similar endeavors). - "develop", the quarterly technical journal, written by Apple Systems engineers, DTS engineers, and 3rd party developers who have "been there". - The WorldWide Developers Conference, which grows bigger and better every year. - DTL, the Deveoper Technial Library on AppleLink. This is a collection of all the questions and answers DTS has received and given over the last couple of years. Please also note that many of these things are not solely the domain of Apple Partners and/or Associates. Most of the above are available on relatively free services, such as ftp sites on these networks. >-- >Laird J. Heal The Usenet is dead! >Here: laird@chinet.chi.il.us Long live the Usenet! -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. INTERNET: keith@apple.com UUCP: {decwrl, hoptoad, nsc, sun, amdahl}!apple!keith "But where the senses fail us, reason must step in." - Galileo
fdm@WLV.IMSD.CONTEL.COM (Frank D. Malczewski) (04/22/91)
Although APDA/Apple has indeed made some fairly strong strides in the right direction since the developer CDs were first made available to developers, ETO & develop come to mind, I think the announcement from APDA that they were going to make the developer CDs available (cheaply) would still be the best new item they could add to their offerings. These recent offerings (the new self-help tools), plus the pale imitation of the developer CDs found in "Developer Essentials", indicate that APDA still seems to be searching for a void to fill. If they really wanted to make a dent in filling one void, "productizing" (remember that word?) the developer CDs themselves would be the best step available in that direction. --Frank Malczewski (fdm@wlv.imsd.contel.com)
TOGE@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Nobukazu Toge) (04/22/91)
I agree with Frank's posting, in that I'd like to see "Developer CDs" made available to the rest of self-appointed-parttime-amateur-developers (call S.A.P.A.D.) like me. That is, besides the "Developer Essentials" and "D e v e l o p" and "ETO", all of which I'm subscribed to. Dear Keith, and all other good folks at Apple: It is not that I don't appreciate your efforts and APDA's. I do! It is that I'd like to see you to accelerate removing "barriers" (both in terms of price and this "Partner / Associate" classification stuff) for S.A.P.A.Ds. And I'd like to add that I'm looking forward to your strengthening the apple.com FTP site. Oh, by the way, I guess I don't need direct access to MacDTS (that one I can understand it would cost a lot of money.) Regarding the price of THINK C, at Stanford University's MicroDisc computer shop, it is available at < $100. I don't intend to request APDA to drop the price to that level here, but to me this definitely tells something (if not everything) about how such software prices can be like. I thought that it might help calibrate your feeling on how some of us are feeling. Best regards, - Nobu Toge (Stanford Linear Accelerator Center) #include <DefinetelyPersonalOnly.h> #include <StandardDisclaimer.h>
francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu (04/23/91)
In article <1991Apr19.122009.1@gsbacd.uchicago.edu> gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (opcode ranger) writes: [keith@Apple's description of ETO] >Add, of course, the $600 for the CD-ROM reader. That comes out to about $1600, >which is a fair amount of money. Yeah, but the reader is useful anyway--it's not like you can count the *whole* cost into the ETO package. Besides, you do have an alternative: get a bunch of floppies, find a friend with a CD-ROM reader, and blow an afternoon or five. :-) -- /============================================================================\ | Francis Stracke | My opinions are my own. I don't steal them.| | Department of Mathematics |=============================================| | University of Chicago | Should five percent appear too small, | | francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu | Be thankful I don't take it all. "Taxman" | \============================================================================/
Jim.Spencer@p510.f22.n282.z1.mn.org (Jim Spencer) (04/23/91)
Keith Rollin writes in a message to All KR> All this for $995 for 4 quarterly updates. I've talked with other KR> developers with experience on other systems. They say that even KR> a small part of what I've listed above would run $5000-10,000 KR> on other platforms. That doesn't even begin to address the quarterly KR> update issue. Actually your pricing is slightly off. The $995 is the price for buying the initial parts which you must own before you can subscribe to ETO. If you have any or all of the parts, you can reduce your price accordingly. The price of ETO itself is only $300. Yes, that's a lot for a hobbyist programmer but in comparison to what you get in the package, I would argue that it is the best deal from any computer manufacturer in the business.
dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) (04/23/91)
In article <51699@apple.Apple.COM> keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: >I'd like to get some real world input on this one. Let's compare >ETO with similar packages in the industry. I'm talking Sun, MicroSoft, >NeXT, HP, whatever. Ok. Let's talk about a $7000 (list; ed prices much lower) NeXTStation. Hardware: 340MB hard drive, 2.88MB floppy, 8M memory, DSP, 17" display, 25MHz 68040, DSP, etc, etc. You can't get this level of hardware from Apple, but a loaded IIfx is at least in the bleachers of the ballpark. You get a license for all the software even on the base model NeXT ($5000 list, $3000 typical higher ed price), though not enough disk space to hold it. > >On ETO, you get the following items: > - Several versions of the complete MPW (which includes > Shell, C & Pascal compilers, Assembler, linker, resource > editor, and about 100 other tools and scripts). MPW is a UNIX wanna-be with a few bells and whistles thrown in. NeXT has the real thing. C, Objective C, C++, Assembler. There are also LOTS more people writing UNIX tools than MPW ones. I have perl, for example on my NeXT. > - Macsbug 6.2 (includes sample dcmds) gdb > - SourceBug (new direct manipulation source level debugger) Only heard a tiny bit about this; doubt NeXT has an equivalent. > - Discipline Nope. > - ResEdit 2.1 Interface builder. Absolutely no comparison; IB is several orders of magnitude more of a help than ResEdit. If you haven't seen IB, imagine doing all your user interface code by means pointing and clicking, and you have a rough idea. > - SADE (not an impulse item, but it's there...) gdb beats SADE hands down in my book. There are a few things that are easier in SADE than gdb; there are a million things gdb does with ease that SADE does not at all or with great difficulty. > - MacApp (2.0.1 and experimental 3.0 versions) The entire windowing environment is written in an object-oriented manner, and you have access to just about all the classes used. And you have Interface Builder... > - MacApp documentation (on line) Online, in Digital Librarian. > - AppleLink archives of conversations from from MacApp.Tech$ > and CPlus$ over the last few years. NeXTAnswers, as well as newsgroup archives, and easy connection to live newsfeeds. People like Avie Tevanian (Chief OS Designer) put in the occasional appearance on comp.sys.next. > - Testing tools (like Virtual User) None that I know of. > - System 7.0 UNIX > - 411 (MPW on line help - contains all of Inside Mac, Technotes > and MPW documentation). > - Developer Essentials (All of the DTS goodies - sample code, > technote stacks, FAQ stacks, preliminary and suplementary > documentation, electronic versions of "develop", etc.) FTP'able developer's course, NeXTAnswers library, ALL docs online. The docs are also not base volumes and ad infinitum diffs, but single documents. > >All this for $995 for 4 quarterly updates. All this included at no charge. Yes, it looks like there are a few things on ETO that you don't get with a cube. The reverse is also true; ResEdit/MacApp can't hold a candle to Interface Builder, QuickDraw is pretty poor compared to PostScript, and oh, the joys of a protected, preemptive OS... >I've talked with other >developers with experience on other systems. They say that even a small >part of what I've listed above would run $5000-10,000 on other >platforms. That doesn't even begin to address the quarterly update >issue. I agree with you on the systems I've priced, except NeXT. -- Steve Dorner, U of Illinois Computing Services Office Internet: s-dorner@uiuc.edu UUCP: uunet!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!s-dorner
d88-jwa@byse.nada.kth.se (Jon W{tte) (04/24/91)
MPW is a UNIX wanna-be with a few bells and whistles thrown in. NeXT has the real thing. C, Objective C, C++, Assembler. There are also LOTS more people writing UNIX tools than MPW ones. I have perl, for example on my NeXT. And I have perl on my mac. It runs A/UX. A/UX is cheaper than ETO, only $795 (ed lower, of course) > - Macsbug 6.2 (includes sample dcmds) gdb I have both. Good at different things (though I guess you could say "adb" too :-) > - MacApp (2.0.1 and experimental 3.0 versions) The entire windowing environment is written in an object-oriented manner, and you have access to just about all the classes used. And you have Interface Builder... There is so much more to an interface, a framework and an application than windows... UNIX Mee to. Obviously :-) AS WEELL AS MAC/OS !!! All this included at no charge. And if NeXT sold, say, 50000 machines a month, would the same be true ? Would the average user even LOOK at the compiler ? oh, the joys of a protected, preemptive OS... Yup. I agree with you on the systems I've priced, except NeXT. Yes, but NeXT has a major drawback (for developers, since that's what we're talking about); Very Low Market Share. Sheesh, I still know people who think the mac market is too small. -- Jon W{tte h+@nada.kth.se - Power !