dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) (04/16/91)
>Hope this helps, >Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. That'll be $300, please. I just received a mailing from Apple, announcing a helpful new program; anyone can buy access to DTS for a mere $6000/year, (or $1800 for 6 questions). Now, I'm not posting this because I think those are terribly outrageous prices, but to point out to everyone here what an incredible deal usenet is, where your questions are answered for free. If I had $6000/year and no net access, my check would go to uunet, not Apple. (A fact which I doubt Apple would mind; I expect that they're not out to make money on the support program, just not to lose any.) -- Steve Dorner, U of Illinois Computing Services Office Internet: s-dorner@uiuc.edu UUCP: uunet!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!s-dorner
time@ice.com (Tim Endres) (04/16/91)
In article <1991Apr16.125246.23173@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) writes: > questions). Now, I'm not posting this because I think those are terribly > outrageous prices, but to point out to everyone here what an incredible > deal usenet is, where your questions are answered for free. And I would like to add that the Usenet community has answered ALL of my Macintosh programming questions, AND in EVERY case I received, MORE, BETTER, and FASTER replies from the net! Apple can not afford to place the kind of experienced veterans you find here on Usenet in DTS. tim. ------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Endres | time@ice.com ICE Engineering | uupsi!ice.com!time 8840 Main Street | Voice FAX Whitmore Lake MI. 48189 | (313) 449 8288 (313) 449 9208
dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) (04/17/91)
I wrote: >>Hope this helps, >>Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. > >That'll be $300, please. Offense was taken at this. I would like to state publicly that none was intended. I certainly do NOT believe that the Apple employees who answer questions on usenet or elsewhere are "money-grubbing know-it-alls" (such was the phrase used by the offended party). My only intent was to point out the value of the services Keith and others like him so kindly donate to the net. If I communicated that poorly, I apologize. -- Steve Dorner, U of Illinois Computing Services Office Internet: s-dorner@uiuc.edu UUCP: uunet!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!s-dorner
MacUserLabs@cup.portal.com (Stephan - Somogyi) (04/18/91)
time@ice.com (Tim Endres) writes: >And I would like to add that the Usenet community has answered ALL of >my Macintosh programming questions, AND in EVERY case I received, >MORE, BETTER, and FASTER replies from the net! Apple can not afford >to place the kind of experienced veterans you find here on Usenet in >DTS. Tim, if you'd care to look, many of the more intricate and complex answers to programming questions come from Apple, where the "kind of experienced veterans" who write the OS are. Your message was a reply to Steve Dorner's msg, which referred to Keith's. Keith works at Apple. NOT in DTS. Yet he took the trouble to forward a Usenet question to Guillermo (who does work in DTS), and then post Guillermo's reply. This is the kind of service normally reserved for Apple Partners. If you want this kind of support to stop, please continue slamming the people that, while they apparently do not help you enough, do help a lot of people here. It is my understanding that DTS is for programming questions that are really horrid. Not for the (to provide an admittedly extreme example) "ohmigosh, how do I outline my default button" questions. If you want to know why DTS turn-around is at 5 working days (or so), think about the number of simple questions that DTS gets and MUST ANSWER, because the people asking are Apple Partners and have paid their fees. Apple is beginning to make the DTS knowledge base available to the developer community so that people can answer their own questions. This off-loads DTS a bit so that they can deal with the more difficult one. Apple has quite a way to go in this endeavour (I still have to look in umpteen different places to make sure that my code follows all the relevant guidelines), but they've done quite a good job so far (eg IM VI on the SuperBeta CD). When you ask a question here, given the number of people who read this newsgroup, you're bound to find someone who's encountered a problem similar to yours before. Therefore it isn't surprising in the least that you get faster responses via the Usenet that from DTS. Statistical probability and all that. ______________________________________________________________________ Stephan Somogyi No. No. No. I'm NOT with MIS. MacUser
time@ice.com (Tim Endres) (04/18/91)
In article <41374@cup.portal.com>, MacUserLabs@cup.portal.com (Stephan - Somogyi) writes: > If you want this kind of support to stop, please continue slamming the > people that, while they apparently do not help you enough, do help a > lot of people here. Stephan, Woah. Please. Unfortunately, many people misunderstood my posting. I was trying to simply say that expecting Apple to stock DTS with as many experienced programmers as you would find on the net would be a very expensive proposition. The talent they have there is excellent, but the net has an inherent advantage. I was NOT knocking DTS, only trying to emphasize the value of this network. In the end, DTS is the best place for tough tough questions. And you are right, they are not intended for the "how do I outline my button" questions. Sorry all. tim. ------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Endres | time@ice.com ICE Engineering | uupsi!ice.com!time 8840 Main Street | Voice FAX Whitmore Lake MI. 48189 | (313) 449 8288 (313) 449 9208
blob@Apple.COM (Brian Bechtel) (04/18/91)
dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) writes: >I just received a mailing from Apple, announcing a helpful new program; >anyone can buy access to DTS for a mere $6000/year, (or $1800 for 6 >questions). Now, I'm not posting this because I think those are terribly >outrageous prices, but to point out to everyone here what an incredible >deal usenet is, where your questions are answered for free. This is not DTS support, but a new program coming out of AppleUSA, the sales and marketing part of Apple. DTS support is provided to members of the Apple Partners program, supported by the Apple Developer Group. Annual fees for this program, provided you qualify, are $600. For more information about the Apple Partners program, or for an application to see if you qualify for the program, send a message to devhotline@applelink.apple.com. --Brian Bechtel blob@apple.com "My opinion, not Apple's"
dan@hpnmdla.hp.com (Dan Pleasant) (04/18/91)
>>Hope this helps, >>Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. >That'll be $300, please. >I just received a mailing from Apple, announcing a helpful new program; >anyone can buy access to DTS for a mere $6000/year, (or $1800 for 6 ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ WOW! >questions). Now, I'm not posting this because I think those are terribly >outrageous prices, but to point out to everyone here what an incredible >deal usenet is, where your questions are answered for free. Excuse me, but is there an extra zero here? When I re-upped last year, the Apple Partners program was only $600/year! Is this the announcement of a new Apple product called HyperInflation? Or is this just a mistake? Small, poor, inquiring developers want to know! >If I had $6000/year and no net access, my check would go to uunet, not Apple. >(A fact which I doubt Apple would mind; I expect that they're not out to make >money on the support program, just not to lose any.) At $6000/year, for 10,000 developers, I suspect that Apple will not lose any money! >-- >Steve Dorner, U of Illinois Computing Services Office >Internet: s-dorner@uiuc.edu UUCP: uunet!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!s-dorner Dan Pleasant [Too lazy to make a .signature file. But if I wasn't, it would give my return address as dan@hpnmdla.hp.com and it would insert a standard disclaimer here.]
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach, net.god {retired}) (04/20/91)
dan@hpnmdla.hp.com (Dan Pleasant) writes: >Excuse me, but is there an extra zero here? When I re-upped last year, >the Apple Partners program was only $600/year! Is this the announcement >of a new Apple product called HyperInflation? Or is this just a mistake? >Small, poor, inquiring developers want to know! This service is not DTS. Repeat. Not DTS. It is a new service that is a superset of DTS, includes telephone access and covers a lot of things that DTS doesn't support at all. It's designed specifically for the in-house developer that can't qualify for Apple Partner, that needs in-depth technical support and needs it now and can't wait for DTS to get around to answerline applelinks. It's more expensive than DTS, but it's also offering more. >At $6000/year, for 10,000 developers, I suspect that Apple will not lose >any money! We won't allow that many, because we couldn't service them properly. -- Chuq Von Rospach >=< chuq@apple.com >=< GEnie: CHUQ >=< AppleLink: CHUQ SFWA Nebula Awards Reports Editor =+= Editor, OtherRealms Book Reviewer, Amazing Stories ---@--- #include <standard/disclaimer.h> Recommended: ORION IN THE DYING TIME Ben Bova (Tor, Aug, ***-); SACRED VISIONS Greeley&Cassutt (Tor, Aug, ****+); MEN AT WORK George Will (****); XENOCIDE Orson Scott Card (August, ****); GOBLIN MOON Teresa Edgerton (***)
john@newave.UUCP (John A. Weeks III) (04/20/91)
In article <1991Apr17.135632.3765@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) writes: > > That'll be $300, please. > My only intent was to point out the value of the services Keith and others > like him so kindly donate to the net. Especially when that Apple employee is risking termination for using electronic communications. One phrase that Apple doesn't like and he could be history.... (my opinion based on one highly publicized event that took place a few years ago) -john- -- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ John A. Weeks III (612) 942-6969 john@newave.mn.org NeWave Communications ...uunet!tcnet!wd0gol!newave!john
oster@well.sf.ca.us (David Phillip Oster) (04/22/91)
I read and post to this group, but I also send to DTS, and I can tell you the
two serve different purposes. My postings to DTS are usually to report bugs
in Apple's code, to report bugs in important 3rd party products, and to get
help for _really_ hairy technical questions. For example, I had a problem
that an MDEF of mine was not hiliting correctly when it was used to draw
a subsidiary menu of a hierarchical menu. To make this work correctly, you
have to store into two undocumented global variables. If I had _known_ that
that was what it took, I could have figured it out for myself by reading the
source code for Apple's MDEF. But only DTS could tell me:
1.) that was where to look.
2.) if they ever break my program they will break those of hundreds of others
that took Apple's code and slightly modified it for some other purpose.
--
-- David Phillip Oster - At least the government doesn't make death worse.
-- oster@well.sf.ca.us = {backbone}!well!osterkeith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (04/23/91)
In article <767@newave.UUCP> john@newave.mn.org (John A. Weeks III) writes: >In article <1991Apr17.135632.3765@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) writes: > >> My only intent was to point out the value of the services Keith and others >> like him so kindly donate to the net. > >Especially when that Apple employee is risking termination for using >electronic communications. One phrase that Apple doesn't like and he >could be history.... I think that these are two different issues, here. Apple employees can't get fired for using electronic communications. However, divulging company secrets -- over whatever medium -- is not a "good idea." I could probably get fired for telling you over lunch about the project I'm currently working on, but it doesn't require that we communicate electronically. So Apple employess shouldn't be at risk using this net; we're here to help solve technical problems, not talk about restricted information. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. INTERNET: keith@apple.com UUCP: {decwrl, hoptoad, nsc, sun, amdahl}!apple!keith "But where the senses fail us, reason must step in." - Galileo
rae@alias.com (Reid Ellis) (04/27/91)
John A. Weeks III <john@newave.UUCP> writes: >One phrase that Apple doesn't like and he could be history.... (my >opinion based on one highly publicized event that took place a few >years ago) Nah.. Byron's still there. [isn't he? :-)] Reid -- Reid Ellis 1 Trefan Street Apt. E, Toronto ON, M5A 3A9 rae@utcs.toronto.edu || rae@alias.com CDA0610@applelink.apple.com || +1 416 362 9181 [work]
han@Apple.COM (Byron Han) (05/03/91)
In article <1991Apr27.165619.1289@alias.com> rae@alias.com (Reid Ellis) writes: >John A. Weeks III <john@newave.UUCP> writes: >>One phrase that Apple doesn't like and he could be history.... > >Nah.. Byron's still there. [isn't he? :-)] Last time I checked he was still there... -- Byron Han, CommToolbox Emir The dream continues... Apple Computer, Inc. -------------------------------------------- 20525 Mariani Ave, MS: 35CP Internet: han@apple.COM Cupertino, CA 95014 AppleLink: HAN1 HAN1@applelink.apple.COM Phone: 1.408.974.6450 CompuServe: 72167,1664
deadman@garnet.berkeley.edu (Ben Haller) (05/05/91)
In article <52314@apple.Apple.COM> han@Apple.COM (Byron Han) writes: >In article <1991Apr27.165619.1289@alias.com> rae@alias.com (Reid Ellis) writes: >>Nah.. Byron's still there. [isn't he? :-)] >Last time I checked he was still there... Reminds me of a joke we have at Berkeley Systems which comes from the "eXyzzyExists" terminology of Gestalt. We now talk of testing the "ePatrickExists" bit to see if our co-worker Patrick still exists, or testing the "eMouseHungry" bit to see if Mouse (another co-worker) is hungry or not... -Ben Haller (deadman@garnet.berkeley.edu) "God I'm sick of trying to think of my 23rd original .sig today" - Me