serickso@ub.d.umn.edu (Scott L. Erickson) (04/17/91)
To whom it concerns:
In regards to the recent discussions in comp.sys.mac.programmer in support
of a student developers program, I agree totally.
I am currently in the process of teaching myself how to program the Mac.
So far I have bought Think Pascal, IM I, and one other book (I can't think of
the name right now). Since I am on a students budget, this puts a crimp on
my spending. I cannot afford to buy much more than I already have. And since
I cannot afford to buy a Mac for myself, I have to use the Mac's in one of the
computer labs here on campus. This can be a real problem if there is a class
using the lab.
I would really appreciate it if there was a program for student developers.
I am serious about becoming a developer for the Macintosh, but I am finding it
difficult to pay for all the materials.
I hope somebody at Apple is listening.
Scott Erickson
(serickso@ub.d.umn.edu)francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu (04/19/91)
In article <1164@ub.d.umn.edu> serickso@ub.d.umn.edu (Scott L. Erickson) writes: > In regards to the recent discussions in comp.sys.mac.programmer in support >of a student developers program, I agree totally. I too. But I don't expect it'll happen: we don't have much time, so we're not likely to come up with major products which would help Apple lots. -- /============================================================================\ | Francis Stracke | My opinions are my own. I don't steal them.| | Department of Mathematics |=============================================| | University of Chicago | Earth: Love it or leave it. | | francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu | | \============================================================================/
vrm@babcock.cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu (Vasile R. Montan) (04/19/91)
From article <FRANCIS.91Apr18193322@arthur.zaphod.uchicago.edu>, by francis@zaphod.uchicago.edu: > In article <1164@ub.d.umn.edu> serickso@ub.d.umn.edu (Scott L. Erickson) writes: >> In regards to the recent discussions in comp.sys.mac.programmer in support >>of a student developers program, I agree totally. > I too. > But I don't expect it'll happen: we don't have much time, so we're not > likely to come up with major products which would help Apple lots. Maybe not at the moment. But it is in Apple's long-term interest to have as many able Mac programmers as possible. A programmer in school today is a programmer in the professional world two or three years down the road. It's been my impression of Apple that the company is very supportive of education. Also, Apple tends to be more far-sighted than other computer manufacturers. For these reasons, it would not surprise me to see Apple start such a program. Besides, I don't doubt that Apple realizes that any company that supports younger people will tend to have their loyalty once those people are professionals. As an adolescent I was once thrown out of a Radio Shack for programming one of the computers-- wait and see how many computers I ever buy from them!!! Harumpf. --Kurisuto un020070@vaxa.wvnet.edu P.S. The local Apple dealer, incidentally, let me program in their store. My 14th birthday cake was in the shape of an Apple logo; I have a homemade Christmas ornament in the same design. Supporting your customers always pays off in the long run. (I've talked several fellow grad students into buying Macs.)
ACPS1072@RYERSON <ACPS1072@Ryerson.CA> (04/21/91)
WARNING: To all those offended at a bit of MAC bashing, do not read this
as I take out some of my frustrations about MAC companies in
general. I would also like to remind the readers that these are
my opinions.
Yes, I would like to see a student developer's program, or better still
a reduction in cost for the developer's program. Let's face it... how many
students do you know that have $2000, plus tuition, plus food, plus laundry
, plus rent. Plus the computer, Apple has to face the fact that not all
people come from rich backrounds. To add on top of all this, there's the
miscellaneous stuff like manuals and software and blank diskettes.
But it's not just Apple that destroys the little guy, there are a number
of software companies that do that too. For example, let's look at buying
languages for the MAC, now let's compare that to companies that sells languages
for the IBM. Borland sells C++ for under $250 bucks (canadian). What's
wrong with these MAC people.... perhaps they sell the stuff for more money
to cover the expense of buying Apple hardware. Let's face it Classics are not
THAT cheap, they can barely be expanded, what use would they be to developer's
except for making sure the software works on that machine (which in my opinion
should be used as a door stop).
I'll admit IBM does not have as nice of an interface as MAC and that memory
is segmented, but at least it can do batch files. Gee, isn't that what a
3rd generation computer was supposed to do?? What is Apple doing?? Are they
going backwards?
For the amount of a decent IIfx set up I could buy a SUN/SPARC workstation.
With that RISC chip in there, and UNIX built in, I don't see why more people
don't just buy that and write software for it.
I believe software that comes out should be more like the MACcheese program,
lots of features, low cost. Even Adobe photoshop is great. It's fast, very
good with memory, and supports gobs of formats, unlike Color Studio the slow
memory pig that only works well on a IIfx, or MacroMud's director which only
imports PICT, PICS, and scrapbook files.
Who cares if the software has a lot of functions?? What good is it if it's
so slow and crashes frequently??
Which brings up another point, if a company is going to make a new standard
shouldn't it be freely available to people who want to program other
applications that use that standard. I'm taking Riff as an example. Letraset
charges $50 dollars for the RIFF specs. For $50 I expect those RIFF documents
to come in a hard cover book with disks that have source code. It's idiot
expenses like this that increase the cost of software being written that use
these formats.
Well that concludes my beefs for today... geez exams must be getting to
me more than I first realized. Sheesh!
Derek Lang<<<<< |
ACPS1072@Ryerson | "Anarchy NOW!!!!! Buy a Mac CLONE!!!!!"
Toronto, ON |
Canada |ed@nsx.Berkeley.EDU (Ed Devinney) (04/22/91)
In article <1612@babcock.cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu>, vrm@babcock.cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu (Vasile R. Montan) writes: |> Maybe not at the moment. But it is in Apple's long-term interest to |> have as many able Mac programmers as possible. A programmer in school |> today is a programmer in the professional world two or three years |> down the road. There has been de facto Apple support of Student Developer programs through the early efforts of the Apple University Consortium, which pushed universities to develop courseware for the Mac. These programs worked pretty well (at least for me!) at bootstrapping Mac programmers, but the costs are pretty high. Administration, equipment, and planning all have to be full-time jobs, and learning the Toolbox is a full-time job itself. At Drexel University's Software Development Group, we were able to do well because the co-op program let us work full-time 1/2 the year, and then part-time during school, after we were up to speed. But even with 6-month full-time stints, it was very hard to get lots of good work done, and I think that the rate of return on investment on the part of the school was too low. How about students forming independent groups and learning from each other? Pool your knowledge, pool your resources, and find some faculty members with some grant money who need something done. It's not that tough. ed -- ed devinney ed@visix.com Visix Software Inc., Reston, VA ...!uunet!visix!ed "Elvis needs boats, Elvis needs boats, ElvisElvisElvisElvisElvisElvisElvis needs boats!" - Mojo Nixon
kenh@eclectic.COM (Ken Hancock) (04/23/91)
In article <1164@ub.d.umn.edu> serickso@ub.d.umn.edu (Scott L. Erickson) writes: > >To whom it concerns: > > In regards to the recent discussions in comp.sys.mac.programmer in support >of a student developers program, I agree totally. Don't get me wrong, but I really can't see something like this happening. Once upon a time, anyone could be a developer, given that they were serious about doing Macintosh development. Nowadays, it'll run you $600. This is peanuts for any large company, but even for non-college students, this is a hefty chunk of money for individuals. What do you think a developer program for college students will really get you? Developer prices on hardware? In some cases the academic prices are just as good, if not better in some cases. As for all the miscellaneous programming aids, you won't gain anything. If your university has a bookstore or computer store, you should be able to get equivalent discounts on books. Other development aids are available form ADPA. As for programming environments, you're best off going for THINK C or THINK Pascal if you're concerned with limited budgets -- they're definitely the best bang for the buck. Other sources such as the tech-notes are available in Hypercard format fairly widely. Speaking as a developer, I'd say the only real benefits of being a developer are: 1) Being seeded with new hardware/software For students, the lack of this shouldn't be a problem, since your needs will obviously be fewer. 2) DTS support via Applelink. Often, there's someone on Internet who will answer questions just as easily, if not faster. 3) Development Tools CD-ROMs such as ETO cost extra for subscriptions, so even for limited budgets, it's not applicable. Hence, having a developer program aimed at students really won't gain you much unless they'd provide the same things at a substantially cheaper price. (Which I can't see since the majority of student developers won't be doing earth-shattering things...not that other developers do...) I can sympathize with you, 'cause that's how I started off as well. It costs lots 'o bucks to program the Mac. Ken -- Ken Hancock | INTERNET: kenh@eclectic.com Isle Systems | Compuserve: >INTERNET: kenh@eclectic.com Macintosh Consulting | AOL: KHancock | Disclaimer: My opinions are mine, | your opinions are yours. Simple, isn't it?
ksand@Apple.COM (Kent Sandvik) (04/23/91)
I was involved in starting two University developer programs in, eh, Australia. One of them was a generic university developer program, where we selected one key person at each consortium support site, and this person received the same services as the Australian registered developers. And this person was a gateway between the small projects going on inside Apple and Apple Australia Developer Services. The other program was a program where a few selected projects from various universities got the same status as registered developers. These projects were selected by a working group with representatives from Consortium universities and Apple. I don't know how well the university developer programs evolved in Australia after I left Apple Oz, so please send me any email from down under about comments and/or critique. Regards, Kent Sandvik, MacDTS -- Disclaimer: Private and personal activities on USENET, non-company sponsored
rdd@cactus.org (Robert Dorsett) (04/26/91)
In article <102@eclectic.COM>, kenh@eclectic.COM (Ken Hancock) writes: > In article <1164@ub.d.umn.edu> serickso@ub.d.umn.edu (Scott L. Erickson) writes: > >To whom it concerns: > > > > In regards to the recent discussions in comp.sys.mac.programmer in support > >of a student developers program, I agree totally. > > Don't get me wrong, but I really can't see something like this happening. > Once upon a time, anyone could be a developer, given that they were serious > about doing Macintosh development. Nowadays, it'll run you $600. Wrong. Until 1986 or so, it would have cost you *$400* to be a "real" develop- er. Comparing what one got *then* vs. what one gets *now*, if Apple is still charging $600, I can only conclude that the people who are buying are getting the better part of the deal. I don't recall Apple ever officially supporting people outside its registered developer programs. --- Robert Dorsett Internet: rdd@cactus.org UUCP: ...cs.utexas.edu!cactus.org!rdd
lsr@Apple.com (Larry Rosenstein) (04/30/91)
In article <6618@cactus.org>, rdd@cactus.org (Robert Dorsett) writes: > > Wrong. Until 1986 or so, it would have cost you *$400* to be a "real" develop- > er. Comparing what one got *then* vs. what one gets *now*, if Apple is > still charging $600, I can only conclude that the people who are buying are > getting the better part of the deal. I don't recall Apple ever officially To follow up on Robert's comments. According to the latest Apple Direct, the Associates program (which is $350/year) has been changed to be the mainstream developer support program. The Partners program is being oriented towards developers "who are developing products that support Apple's long-term business objectives and product strategies." The main difference between the 2 programs seems to be that Partners get E-Mail technical support. (There may be other differences, but the article doesn't explain them in detail.) To some extent, APDA is a student developer program. It provides access to much of the same technical information that Partners/Associates get. For technical support, most students can take advantage of the net, or other online services (now including AppleLink).
Lawson.English@p88.f15.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Lawson English) (05/01/91)
Ken Hancock writes in a message to All
KH> Hence, having a developer program aimed at students really won't
KH> gain you much unless they'd provide the same things at a substantially
KH> cheaper price. (Which I can't see since the majority of student
KH> developers won't be doing earth-shattering things...not that
KH> other developers do...) I can sympathize with you, 'cause that's
KH> how I started off as well. It costs lots 'o bucks to program
KH> the Mac.
There is also the possiblity of creating loyalty to the machine by allowing
students to program on it without breaking their budget. Apple has sent me E-mail
saying "no way." Think C and Pascal can be had for sizable discounts, why not
MPW?
Lawson
--
Uucp: ...{gatech,ames,rutgers}!ncar!asuvax!stjhmc!300!15.88!Lawson.English
Internet: Lawson.English@p88.f15.n300.z1.fidonet.orgewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) (05/02/91)
In <13245@goofy.Apple.COM> lsr@Apple.com (Larry Rosenstein) writes: >According to the >latest Apple Direct, the Associates program (which is $350/year) has been >changed to be the mainstream developer support program.... To some extent, >APDA is a student developer program. It provides access to much of the same >technical information that Partners/Associates get. Much, but not all. At the moment, the only way to get Inside Macintosh Vol VI -- the only source for System 7 programming -- is to join one of the developers' programs. APDA says that IM VI will not be available through them until "sometime this summer." This is unfortunate because beta editions hae been available to registered developers for over a year. With System 7 final being released in about a week, unregistered developers will finally be able to get their hands on it; but to do anything with it, they need IM VI. Right now, I can buy a 105M external hard drive for $399. Or I can join the Associate's Program for roughly the same price. Which is more valuable to me as a developer? It's unfortunate that I have to make a choice. Even though I'm not a student, I think $350 is a bit steep to get my hands on one book. (Yes, I know I'd get a lot more than IM VI by joining the Associates' program. But nothing I can't live without at the present time.)
omh@cs.brown.edu (Owen M. Hartnett) (05/03/91)
Inside Mac Vol VI is here and now (at least it exists at Quantum books in Cambridge). I've seen it, looked through it and even attempted to pick it up. (It's very heavy!) John Shockey at our BCS MacTechGrp said that they've lowered the price per pound on this one (the retail is $39.95). This is an Addison wesley publication. They should have split this up into two volumes, it's so big. You'll be able to spot it easily as it will be on the bookshelf that's sagging. -Owen Owen Hartnett omh@cs.brown.edu "FAITH, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." -Ambrose Bierce - The Devil's Dictionary
6600dtam@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (DogCow) (05/10/91)
In article <ewright.673199184@convex.convex.com> ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes: >Right now, I can buy a 105M external hard drive for $399. Or I can >join the Associate's Program for roughly the same price. Which is >more valuable to me as a developer? It's unfortunate that I have >to make a choice. Even though I'm not a student, I think $350 is >a bit steep to get my hands on one book. (Yes, I know I'd get a >lot more than IM VI by joining the Associates' program. But nothing >I can't live without at the present time.) Thats not to mention the ~$600 you would have to spend on a CD-ROM Drive in order to read the version of IM VI you get as an Associate. IMHO--ETO would be a beter deal...at ~$1500 w/CD-ROM drive you get everything a developer could want. -- = Marc Tamsky 6600dtam@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu 6600dtam@UCSBUXA (bitnet) =
ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) (05/14/91)
In <11159@hub.ucsb.edu> 6600dtam@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (DogCow) writes: >In article <ewright.673199184@convex.convex.com> ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes: >Thats not to mention the ~$600 you would have to spend on a CD-ROM Drive >in order to read the version of IM VI you get as an Associate. You can a CD-ROM drive for a lot less than $600 if you shop around. I got mine at First Saturday -- an outdoor computer market -- for $300.