ty@dnalounge.Eng.Sun.COM (Acquisition By Association) (06/05/91)
So tell me, has anybody sucessfully removed the balloon help icon from the menu bar?
ldo@waikato.ac.nz (Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Waikato University) (06/10/91)
I don't think it's a good idea trying to remove the balloon help menu and icon. I've already found one piece of information that you can't easily get from the system otherwise. Hint: it's in the "About This Macintosh..." display. Lawrence D'Oliveiro fone: +64-71-562-889 Computer Services Dept fax: +64-71-384-066 University of Waikato electric mail: ldo@waikato.ac.nz Hamilton, New Zealand 37^ 47' 26" S, 175^ 19' 7" E, GMT+12:00 To someone with a hammer and a screwdriver, every problem looks like a nail with threads.
jkeegan@hawk.ulowell.edu (Jeff Keegan) (06/11/91)
In article <1991Jun10.190032.3928@waikato.ac.nz> ldo@waikato.ac.nz (Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Waikato University) writes: >I don't think it's a good idea trying to remove the balloon help menu >and icon. I've already found one piece of information that you can't easily >get from the system otherwise. > >Hint: it's in the "About This Macintosh..." display. > >Lawrence D'Oliveiro fone: +64-71-562-889 >Computer Services Dept fax: +64-71-384-066 >University of Waikato electric mail: ldo@waikato.ac.nz >Hamilton, New Zealand 37^ 47' 26" S, 175^ 19' 7" E, GMT+12:00 >To someone with a hammer and a screwdriver, every problem looks >like a nail with threads. After quickly browsing through the About This Macintosh display with the help balloons on and finding nothing, I spent a good minute with high hopes in the "mountains" about box with help balloons on (ctrl-opt-cmd-shift) waiting for something like "This is a really nifty secret about box visible only to those with lots of patience [and nothing better to do]", but alas, nothing. Then I went back and found the real reference made above. Oh well... The hunt continues... ..Jeff Keegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jeff Keegan | I clutch the wire fence until my fingers bleed | | jkeegan@hawk.ulowell.edu | A wound that will not heal | |----------------------------| A heart that cannot feel | | This space intentionally | Hoping that the horror will receed | | left blank | Hoping that tomorrow we'll all be freed -RUSH | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
reynhout@cs.uri.edu (Andrew Reynhout) (06/11/91)
In article <1991Jun10.190032.3928@waikato.ac.nz> ldo@waikato.ac.nz (Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Waikato University) writes: >I don't think it's a good idea trying to remove the balloon help menu >and icon. I've already found one piece of information that you can't easily >get from the system otherwise. > >Hint: it's in the "About This Macintosh..." display. On a related note, does anyone know if there's an easy way to identify the "activate areas" of balloon help? Is it plainly visible from within ResEdit? (The only sys7-aware thing I run presently is the finder, and ResEdit won't let you edit that while it's running...) Also, after having searched the "About this Macintosh..." display, I can't find anything of interest here. Unless you're talking about getting a integer value of the RAM a given application uses, rather than the standard bargraph.. Andrew -- <reynhout@cs.uri.edu>
rmh@apple.com (Rick Holzgrafe) (06/12/91)
In article <676362431.27@egsgate.FidoNet.Org> Acquisition.By.Association@f98.n250.z1.FidoNet.Org (Acquisition By Association) writes: > So tell me, has anybody sucessfully removed the balloon help icon > from the menu bar? I still can't understand why anyone wants to do this. The balloon help icon will automatically vanish from the menu bar if the foreground app's menus crowd it. And that menu is destined to be the standard place to look for any system 7-savvy app's online help: not just Balloon Help, but real menu items like the "Finder Shortcuts" item that is there when the Finder is frontmost. ========================================================================== Rick Holzgrafe | {sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual}!apple!rmh Software Engineer | AppleLink HOLZGRAFE1 rmh@apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. | "All opinions expressed are mine, and do 20525 Mariani Ave. MS: 3-PK | not necessarily represent those of my Cupertino, CA 95014 | employer, Apple Computer Inc."
osborn@ux1.lbl.gov (James R Osborn) (06/12/91)
In article <1991Jun11.092015.13689@cs.uri.edu> reynhout@cs.uri.edu (Andrew Reynhout) writes: >In article <1991Jun10.190032.3928@waikato.ac.nz> ldo@waikato.ac.nz (Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Waikato University) writes: >>I don't think it's a good idea trying to remove the balloon help menu >>and icon. I've already found one piece of information that you can't easily >>get from the system otherwise. >> >>Hint: it's in the "About This Macintosh..." display. > > On a related note, does anyone know if there's an easy way to identify the >"activate areas" of balloon help? Is it plainly visible from within ResEdit? >(The only sys7-aware thing I run presently is the finder, and ResEdit won't let >you edit that while it's running...) > > Also, after having searched the "About this Macintosh..." display, I can't >find anything of interest here. Unless you're talking about getting a integer >value of the RAM a given application uses, rather than the standard bargraph.. > > Andrew >-- > <reynhout@cs.uri.edu> The thing that I found interesting is that it tells you how much memory the applications are CURRENTLY USING out of their partition size. The only way I could see to get this information was with the balloon help on within the "About this Macintosh..." window. Kind of a useful feature. Maybe this should appear somehow without needing Balloon help on. Perhaps holding the option key should display the current memory usage for each appication in the window. -- James .------------------------------.--------------------------------------. | James R. Osborn | It just goes to show you it's always | | Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory | something. Either it's baffling | | osborn@ux1.lbl.gov | tech notes or your mac is smoking. | | (415) 548-8464 | It's always something... | '------------------------------'--------------------------------------'
tlt38517@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Terry Lee Thiel) (06/12/91)
> So tell me, has anybody sucessfully removed the balloon help icon > from the menu bar? >>I still can't understand why anyone wants to do this. I can't use the thesaurus in WriteNow because of ballon help. I don't think I will really use ballon help anyway although I could be wrong. I think you should have the option to remove it if you so desire. Would this be difficult to do?
time@ice.com (Tim Endres) (06/12/91)
In article <14011@goofy.Apple.COM>, rmh@apple.com (Rick Holzgrafe) writes: > In article <676362431.27@egsgate.FidoNet.Org> > Acquisition.By.Association@f98.n250.z1.FidoNet.Org (Acquisition By > Association) writes: > > So tell me, has anybody sucessfully removed the balloon help icon > > from the menu bar? > > I still can't understand why anyone wants to do this. The balloon help > icon will automatically vanish from the menu bar if the foreground app's > menus crowd it. And that menu is destined to be the standard place to look > for any system 7-savvy app's online help: not just Balloon Help, but real > menu items like the "Finder Shortcuts" item that is there when the Finder > is frontmost. Not everyone wants the menu. I don't. I don't have time to avoid it, let alone use it. ------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Endres | time@ice.com ICE Engineering | uupsi!ice.com!time 8840 Main Street | Voice FAX Whitmore Lake MI. 48189 | (313) 449 8288 (313) 449 9208
tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd Green) (06/12/91)
>Not everyone wants the menu. I don't. >I don't have time to avoid it, let alone use it. Avoid it? How exactly is it getting in your way? I have to agree with Rick. If you don't like it, don't use it. If there isn't room it gets removed. Finally it'll most likely (nothing's definite) become the defacto standard place for online help. Could you please explain yourself. Todd -- Internet: tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu NeXTMail: tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu BitNet: tagreen@iubacs.bitnet
dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) (06/13/91)
In article <14011@goofy.Apple.COM> rmh@apple.com (Rick Holzgrafe) writes: >> So tell me, has anybody sucessfully removed the balloon help icon >> from the menu bar? > >I still can't understand why anyone wants to do this. Can you say, "It covers up my clock"? Can you say, "I won't EVER use it with ANY of my applications"? Can you say, "The USER is in control, not the COMPUTER, and if the USER wants it to go away, who are YOU to gainsay it"? I knew you could :-). -- Steve Dorner, U of Illinois Computing Services Office Internet: s-dorner@uiuc.edu UUCP: uunet!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!s-dorner
coxr@piccolo.ecn.purdue.edu (Richard L Cox) (06/13/91)
dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) writes: >In article <14011@goofy.Apple.COM> rmh@apple.com (Rick Holzgrafe) writes: >>> So tell me, has anybody sucessfully removed the balloon help icon >>> from the menu bar? >> >>I still can't understand why anyone wants to do this. Me too. >Can you say, "It covers up my clock"? Yes,"It covers up my clock" - try one of the new shareware ones poping up all over the place! >Can you say, "I won't EVER use it with ANY of my applications"? No I can't it is a narrow mind which says "won't EVER ... with ANY." Unless you are omnipotent in which case, congratulations it must be wonderful. >Can you say, "The USER is in control, not the COMPUTER, and if the USER >wants it to go away, who are YOU to gainsay it"? I hear system 6.0.7 is still available and doesn't have those annoying baloons. >I knew you could :-). My my Steve, we are worried that the computer might really have control aren't we... I suggest a vacation and in increase in fiber intake. Soon someone will realese a nice little control pannel which will allow you to turn it off and on. Until then patience is a virtue... or write the damn thing yourself, stop bitching and learn to appreciate the great things which Apple did. I'm sure they are very sorry the missed on your custom order operating system. >Steve Dorner, U of Illinois Computing Services Office >Internet: s-dorner@uiuc.edu UUCP: uunet!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!s-dorner "And the kids they dance, they shake their bones" peace -Rich
time@ice.com (Tim Endres) (06/13/91)
In article <1991Jun12.032046.22831@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>, tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd Green) writes: > >Not everyone wants the menu. I don't. > >I don't have time to avoid it, let alone use it. > > Avoid it? How exactly is it getting in your way? I have to agree > with Rick. If you don't like it, don't use it. If there isn't room > it gets removed. Finally it'll most likely (nothing's definite) > become the defacto standard place for online help. Could you please > explain yourself. Sure. I don't like it. I don't want it in my menu bar. I like my clock thing there. I don't use it. How come I can customize some things and not others. Seems counter-Macintosh. tim. ------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Endres | time@ice.com ICE Engineering | uupsi!ice.com!time 8840 Main Street | Voice FAX Whitmore Lake MI. 48189 | (313) 449 8288 (313) 449 9208
klingspo@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Steve Klingsporn) (06/13/91)
In article <1991Jun12.190156.29819@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) writes: >In article <14011@goofy.Apple.COM> rmh@apple.com (Rick Holzgrafe) writes: >>> So tell me, has anybody sucessfully removed the balloon help icon >>> from the menu bar? >> > >Can you say, "It covers up my clock"? Can you say "deal with it until the init writer comes out with a new one?" I have used SuperClock 3.9 with 7.0, and have seen the clock move over to the left once the help menu is initially drawn. Maybe we don't have the same experiences. > >Can you say, "I won't EVER use it with ANY of my applications"? I thought that too, but with apps like Canvas 3.0, etc., it is very helpful to have balloon help pop up when you need to see what a cryptic icon in a palette does, etc. It's a good feature. BTW, not all Macintosh users have the knowledge that net posters do! Balloon Help is a great service to all users of the Macintosh. > >Can you say, "The USER is in control, not the COMPUTER, and if the USER >wants it to go away, who are YOU to gainsay it"? If you want it to go away, I'm sure that there's a way to "hack it out" by an init or something -- why the hell not just leave it alone? It's the HELP MANAGER, you know, and it's pretty integrated. It's very nice. When QuickTime is released, it'd be very nice to be able to get extended balloon help with movies showing a very small (hence fast) snippet of animation with sound, depicting some of an applications's features. I really think Balloon Help is great. Nobody ever runs around with it ON all the time. The main point is this -- if you are a new Mac user or just got a new app, you can boot up your machine, and play with help on and see what everything does. Steve Klingsporn >
stui@avalon.caladan.wa.com (Stuart Burden) (06/13/91)
In article <15463@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU>, klingspo@mozart.cs.colostate.edu (Steve Klingsporn) writes: | In article <1991Jun12.190156.29819@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) writes: | >In article <14011@goofy.Apple.COM> rmh@apple.com (Rick Holzgrafe) writes: | >>> So tell me, has anybody sucessfully removed the balloon help icon | >>> from the menu bar? | >Can you say, "It covers up my clock"? | | Can you say "deal with it until the init writer comes out with a new one?" | I have used SuperClock 3.9 with 7.0, and have seen the clock move over to | the left once the help menu is initially drawn. Maybe we don't have the | same experiences. Perhaps your not using an SE, Plus, Classic, SE/30, Portable, LC, or other configuration which uses "the most popular" screen size, where the menubar real-estate is spartan to say the lease, these days.. If we are to believe Apple, the Classic and the LC are destined to rule the world, in which case the "standard" config is small screen. In this world it makes sense for first time users to have access to Balloon help, but it is absolute lunacy to provide no way to turn this off either on an application specific or on a global basis! I love the "idea" of Balloon Help, and it's great that it's soooooo obvious now (the icon stares you in the face as though "daring" you to click on it, constantly!). I don't understand the Apple usability people at all. What could they be thinking to make the icon "stick" there, and why of why didn't they put it under the Applications menu.. safely out of the way? Surely Apple expected that the first major group of users to migrate to System 7 would be "power" and "experienced" users? Power users might use the feature occasionally, true, but why must we see it constantly? While it is true that "power" users may have larger screens, I still don't have that much menubar real-estate to burn. I think a toggle would be nice either in each application.. if it doesn't support balloon help, why bother showing the balloon menu, or if the application does, why not leave that as a prefs for the application to deal with (obviously Apple aren't going to buy this one :-)).. or Provide a global option in the control panel to turn the "feature" on and off (obviously again this is "unlikely" to happen :-)). I think the arguably "smart" thing to do is wait for someone to post a neat cdev that will do just that.. I would think that with the bandwidth this discussion is taking, that this is more than likely going to be the case..? :-) Stu. -- stui@avalon.uucp stui@avalon.caladan.wa.com
bruner@sp15.csrd.uiuc.edu (John Bruner) (06/13/91)
Apparently some menubar clocks know about the help menu and move out of the way. Are they smart enough to take the script menu into account as well? Most U.S. users probably don't see it (because they have only one script system), but it can also appear at the right edge of the menubar (between the balloon and the application menus). -- John Bruner Center for Supercomputing R&D, University of Illinois bruner@csrd.uiuc.edu (217) 244-4476
deweese@sunshine.Kodak.COM (Thomas Deweese) (06/13/91)
I believe that the reason Apple did not provide a way of removing that little help ballon is so that novices (the persons who need it the most) will always be able to find it. It is designed to be one of the common things across macs. Just like cmd Q is for Quit, cmd O is for open, cmd W is for close (execpt in Think C -Ahhhh). If anyone was just able to hide it, most people would. Then when some novice got on the Mac, he would be unable to figure out where his help when. As some one said already it is in a spot where it draws attention to it's self, until you get used to it being there. Personally I think that it is a great idea. BTW how many people complained about the multifinder icon when they first put it in the menu? The Mac is so nice to use because, for most things if you done it on one mac you done it on every mac. This is one of the things I find most frustrating about other computer systems. Yes I know unix, but it takes me several days before I learn where they keep everything on their system, yes there are conventions, but not enough for my liking. Thomas DeWeese
freek@fwi.uva.nl (Freek Wiedijk) (06/13/91)
bruner@sp15.csrd.uiuc.edu (John Bruner) writes: >Apparently some menubar clocks know about the help menu and move out >of the way. Are they smart enough to take the script menu into >account as well? There _used_ to be a MacroMaker menu also, isn't it? Freek "the Pistol Major" Wiedijk E-mail: freek@fwi.uva.nl #P:+/ = #+/P?*+/ = i<<*+/P?*+/ = +/i<<**P?*+/ = +/(i<<*P?)*+/ = +/+/(i<<*P?)**
keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) (06/14/91)
In article <1CE00001.hy1of0@tbomb.ice.com> time@ice.com writes: > >In article <1991Jun12.032046.22831@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>, tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd Green) writes: >> >Not everyone wants the menu. I don't. >> >I don't have time to avoid it, let alone use it. >> >> Avoid it? How exactly is it getting in your way? I have to agree >> with Rick. If you don't like it, don't use it. If there isn't room >> it gets removed. Finally it'll most likely (nothing's definite) >> become the defacto standard place for online help. Could you please >> explain yourself. > >Sure. > >I don't like it. >I don't want it in my menu bar. >I like my clock thing there. >I don't use it. > >How come I can customize some things and not others. >Seems counter-Macintosh. "Counter-Macintosh"? When have to _ever_ been able to control what menus you want in your menubar? According to your philosphy, I should also be able to put my menubar down the right side of my screen, and swap the positions of my goAway and Zoom boxes in my windows. Being able to do that would be the ultimate in customization, but then consistancy goes right out the window. You still haven't answered the question "How exactly is it getting in your way?" And what's this business with everyone's clock, anyway. I wrote my own menuclock about four years ago. Of course, it doesn't know about the Help menu, so it merrily draws right over the menu. Does anyone know why their menuclocks are backwards in this respect? Why do other menuclocks get overwritten by the Help menu? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Keith Rollin --- Apple Computer, Inc. INTERNET: keith@apple.com UUCP: {decwrl, hoptoad, nsc, sun, amdahl}!apple!keith "But where the senses fail us, reason must step in." - Galileo
lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (06/14/91)
In article <1CE00001.hznrnc@avalon.caladan.wa.com> stui@avalon.caladan.wa.com (Stuart Burden) writes: > >If we are to believe Apple, the Classic and the LC are destined to >rule the world, in which case the "standard" config is small screen. >In this world it makes sense for first time users to have access to >Balloon help, but it is absolute lunacy to provide no way to turn >this off either on an application specific or on a global basis! The System 7 designers thought of this problem, since the help menu goes away by itself if other menus need that space. As for menu bar clocks, if menu bar space is so tight on a small screen, then one wouldn't want to use a menu bar clock at all. >there, and why of why didn't they put it under the Applications menu.. >safely out of the way? Surely Apple expected that the first major Developers are encouraged to put their own help items there (rather than in the Apple menu, or in a hierarchical menu, or in the about box, or ...). The Finder does this already. You would lose access to these items without the help menu. -- Larry Rosenstein, Apple Computer, Inc. lsr@apple.com (or AppleLink: Rosenstein1)
lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (06/14/91)
In article <1CE00001.hy1of0@tbomb.ice.com> time@ice.com writes: > > >How come I can customize some things and not others. >Seems counter-Macintosh. If every possible thing was customizable there would be a million checkboxes, radio buttons, etc. So the designers have to make a decision about what things will be customizable. -- Larry Rosenstein, Apple Computer, Inc. lsr@apple.com (or AppleLink: Rosenstein1)
kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle) (06/14/91)
lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) writes: > As for menu bar clocks, if menu bar space is so tight on a small >screen, then one wouldn't want to use a menu bar clock at all. I'm not sure i understand why. If there is enough room for only one object, most of the people writing here seem to think it should be used for clocks. Perhaps if menubar space is tight, the ballon help & label/color menus should give way to the vastly more popular menubar clocks? I wonder how many of the people bitching about the balloon help icon wondered "what is that folder named "startup Items'?" and didn't bother to check the balloon help... although it did not tell how to turn the trash warnings off, another popular question. And how to trash the balloon help menu entirely (by deleting resources) was posted to one of these groupsa while ago... -- ...kiran __________kiran@copper.ucs.indiana.edu________(812) 331-1710 From the corrections column in a July Fresno, CA _Bee_: "An item in Thursday's [issue] about the Massachusetts budget crisis made reference to new taxes that will help put Massachusetts 'back in the African-American.' The item should have said 'back in the black.'"
wysocki@husc9.harvard.edu (Christopher Wysocki) (06/14/91)
If the Balloon Help icon in the menu bar *really* bothers you, you can get rid of it by simply erasing (not removing) the appropriate icon resources in the System file with ResEdit. There are three Balloon Help icons (ics#, ics4, and ics8), each with a resource ID of -16490. Open up the icon family editor and erase each of the three icons (along with the mask) by doubling-clicking on the eraser tool. Save your System file and voila! No more Balloon Help icon! Chris Wysocki wysocki@husc9.harvard.edu
stui@avalon.caladan.wa.com (Stuart Burden) (06/14/91)
In article <14058@goofy.Apple.COM>, lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) writes: | away by itself if other menus need that space. As for menu bar clocks, if | menu bar space is so tight on a small screen, then one wouldn't want to use | a menu bar clock at all. This is not so. One has the choice of then choosing the function of greatest utility to them.. in my case (and it seems in many others also) this is a clock. Perhaps Apple would have been better off, chucking the da clock (does anyone "really" use this), and adding a very popular item, a menubar clock, to System 7! :-) Seems like this would have been a very popular option! :-) | Developers are encouraged to put their own help items there (rather than in | the Apple menu, or in a hierarchical menu, or in the about box, or ...). | The Finder does this already. You would lose access to these items without | the help menu. The only thing that we currently lose, is the "promise" that everyone will do this "in the future". Well that's all well and wonderful, but I still don't understand why there is not an option for turning this excess use of menubar space, off. Consistancy can still be maintained with the addition of a single option. I don't see that providing a single (and seemingly popular) option, will cause the entire fabric of the Apple usability universe to rip into shreds. If so then it is truely built on shaky ground.. and perhaps that is the case with Balloon help, which has already received reviews saying: cute, wish you could turn it off, first time users might use it for awhile etc etc. Now in practice a user will use an applications menu's constantly, that's why developers place the important options on the menubar. How often do users use help? Most companies of any repute have dedicated a great deal of research to this, and I think you will find that interactive Computer Based Training aids are more highly regarded than something that pops up cartoon balloons.. really. One thing that Apple could have done well to consider, would have been the use of a Windows menu, and on the Windows menu, place the standard Balloon help items (at the bottom :-))... there is something to be said for this functionality in MS-Windows! Now several questions have been asked as to why one would prefer to see a clock rather than a neat.. cool.. question mark (:-^)) on the menubar.. it still comes down to what will you use. Balloon help is a nice touch, no doubt about it. But it will not be used.. really used like a menu item should be. Is it "really" that important that is "should" be on it's own menu (really.. think about it.. how many times will a user turn on Balloon help to see a balloon that tells them that the File menu contains Print and File items.. sheesh.. once.. maybe twice if they are really desperate). A menubar clock.. heck that gets used ALL the (pardon the pun) "time". A Windows menu, I'd use all the time :-) Cheers. Stu. PS. Now seriously, I don't expect Apple to add an option to turn off Balloon help.. as this would signal to developers, that this is actually an option that users "could possibly live without" (what a concept :-)), and at the moment with Balloon Help barely in it's infancy, that'd be the last thing they would want. So beat us over the head with it, they will. -- stui@avalon.uucp stui@avalon.caladan.wa.com
neeri@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Ulrich Neeracher) (06/14/91)
In article <1CE00001.h1mowr@avalon.caladan.wa.com> stui@avalon.caladan.wa.com (Stuart Burden) writes: >In article <14058@goofy.Apple.COM>, lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) writes: > | Developers are encouraged to put their own help items there (rather than in > | the Apple menu, or in a hierarchical menu, or in the about box, or ...). > | The Finder does this already. You would lose access to these items without > | the help menu. > >The only thing that we currently lose, is the "promise" that everyone >will do this "in the future". I'd almost bet you that more than 50% of the applications that currently have a help menu item or button somewhere will do this in their next release. >Well that's all well and wonderful, >but I still don't understand why there is not an option for turning >this excess use of menubar space, off. Since nobody would add their help items to the menu then. >Consistancy can still be maintained >with the addition of a single option. I don't see that providing >a single (and seemingly popular) option, will cause the entire fabric >of the Apple usability universe to rip into shreds. Back in the good old times, there were also popular options to make the screen write white on black. Omitting the Apple menu in your application also used to be more popular than it is today. On my floppy-based systems, I also used to omit the Finder (Anybody out there remember Oasis ? Or PowerStation ?). The option to omit the balloon help menu might be popular today. It will be less so in a year. >If so then it >is truely built on shaky ground.. and perhaps that is the case with >Balloon help, which has already received reviews saying: cute, wish >you could turn it off, first time users might use it for awhile etc >etc. I remember what one of my employer's first reaction to the Switcher was: "You know, that's just a last desperate attempt to stop the unavoidable success of integrated packages like Lotus Jazz (Anybody remember Lotus Jazz ?). Nobody will want to switch between several programs if they can have it all in one program." >Now in practice a user will use an applications menu's constantly, that's >why developers place the important options on the menubar. I disagree. Some options are put on the menubar SO THEY ARE FOUND EASILY WHEN THEY ARE EVER NEEDED. Or do you seriously believe that "About ...", which is the most prominent option in a menubar, is used the most often ? >How often >do users use help? Most companies of any repute have dedicated a ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What does that make Apple, a computer whorehouse ? >great deal of research to this, and I think you will find that interactive >Computer Based Training aids are more highly regarded than something >that pops up cartoon balloons.. really. Yeah, sure. How silly of me to assume Apple would have done any user interface research before implementing balloon help. As we all know, balloon help is just one of those features that were blindly copied from the Xerox Star. So, if you want to know how to type a non-breaking hyphen in <Insert your favorite Word processor>, you fire up your interactive Computer Based Training aid ? Gee, there's something to be said for modern science. >Balloon help >is a nice touch, no doubt about it. But it will not be used.. really >used like a menu item should be. Is it "really" that important that >is "should" be on it's own menu (really.. think about it.. how many >times will a user turn on Balloon help to see a balloon that tells >them that the File menu contains Print and File items.. sheesh.. once.. >maybe twice if they are really desperate). Who am I to doubt your wisdom, gathered from the multitude of applications that currently use balloon help. >A menubar clock.. heck that gets used ALL the (pardon the pun) "time". Sure, I use one, too. >A Windows menu, I'd use all the time :-) That really depends on the application. >So beat us over >the head with it, they will. Yeah, like they did with their black on white displays, their icons, and their *mandatory* mice (You can't use those damn computers without one). I should've listened to my computer science teacher who predicted as early as 1985 that mouse/icon/window based interfaces would never be used except in "toys". (While I predicted as early as 1985 that 128K would be sufficient for all normal computing needs for a long time to come.) To make a long story short: Balloon Help is here to stay. The Help menu is a great idea. And it shouldn't take that much work to program Menu clocks to (optionally) overwrite the help icon. Matthias ----- Matthias Neeracher neeri@iis.ethz.ch "These days, though, you have to be pretty technical before you can even aspire to crudeness." -- William Gibson, _Johnny Mnemonic_
dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) (06/14/91)
In article <NEERI.91Jun14134647@iis.ethz.ch> neeri@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Ulrich Neeracher) writes: >I disagree. Some options are put on the menubar SO THEY ARE FOUND EASILY WHEN >THEY ARE EVER NEEDED. Or do you seriously believe that "About ...", which is >the most prominent option in a menubar, is used the most often ? "About..." is primarily a marketing tool; this is who I am, this is who wrote me, this is who you should send more cash to. Hence its prominence; greed beats out function any old time. The Finder is one of the very few apps I can think of that puts anything remotely useful in the "About..." box; most apps (my own included) don't put anything there I'd ever need. >[Witty comment about Balloon Help deleted.] > So, if you want to know how to type a non-breaking hyphen in <Insert your >favorite Word processor>, you fire up your interactive Computer Based Training >aid ? Explain to me how balloon help will tell me how to type a non-breaking hyphen. To what shall I point? As a developer, I'm really pleased with Balloon Help, because it's going to give me a way to communicate with *novice* users of my program. As a sophisticated user with a fairly static set of applications that I know well, Balloon Help is useless clutter in my menu bar. I do want to get rid of it on my mac, which I certainly don't want ANYONE else messing with anyway. I disagree with "It's stupid for Apple not to make the Help menu optional" AND with "It's stupid to want to get rid of the Help menu." I think both sides in this argument have perfectly reasonable positions; There are perfectly good reasons to make the Help menu optional, but Apple can't make *everything* (easily) customizable. -- Steve Dorner, U of Illinois Computing Services Office Internet: s-dorner@uiuc.edu UUCP: uunet!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!s-dorner
dnebing@bgsuvax.UUCP (David Nebinger) (06/14/91)
In article <53970@apple.Apple.COM>, keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: > In article <1CE00001.hy1of0@tbomb.ice.com> time@ice.com writes: > > > >How come I can customize some things and not others. > >Seems counter-Macintosh. > > "Counter-Macintosh"? When have to _ever_ been able to control what > menus you want in your menubar? According to your philosphy, I should > also be able to put my menubar down the right side of my screen, and > swap the positions of my goAway and Zoom boxes in my windows. Being > able to do that would be the ultimate in customization, but then > consistancy goes right out the window. Moving the menubar around to a different part of the screen is really reaching for things. This is not quite a good argument. For the Mac-expert, the balloon menu is something that could get in the way. Especially with the se's (etc...) small screen. Wanting to remove or disable something like that would be only natural to him. I have heard that a lot of programs with an exceptionally long menubar does loose some items. And people's clocks seem to be more important to them than the online help. But the Mac-novice can and probably look forward to using the balloons as an alternative to paging through manuals looking for one small item for which they have a question. The fact that there are now and will be more novices out there, the balloons should be an integral part of any program. I must admit that I don't use the online help, and probably never will. If there becomes an easy way to _temporarily_ disable that menu item, I probably would. I wouldn't want to completely remove it, as it is nice to show off a Mac (especially to Big Blue users), and it gets alot of ooh's and ahh's. I did find them interesting at first, but it got old quickly. David Nebinger dnebing@andy.bgsu.edu
rob@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Robert K Shull) (06/14/91)
In article <1991Jun14.142433.23341@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) writes: >In article <NEERI.91Jun14134647@iis.ethz.ch> neeri@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Ulrich Neeracher) writes: >> So, if you want to know how to type a non-breaking hyphen in <Insert your >>favorite Word processor>, you fire up your interactive Computer Based Training >>aid ? > >Explain to me how balloon help will tell me how to type a non-breaking hyphen. >To what shall I point? I think the point is that the menu is not just a "balloon help" menu, it's a "generic help" menu. Notice how the finder adds an item to that menu. I haven't looked at that section of IM VI yet, but it should be possible for other applications to add their help selections to that menu. This would save users from "wandering help syndrome". (Help is under "Windows" in application X, under the Apple menu in application Y, a sub-item under the "About Box" of application Z, under the "Utilities" menu of application W, etc.) Robert -- Robert K. Shull rob@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
d88-jwa@byse.nada.kth.se (Jon W{tte) (06/15/91)
> dorner@pequod.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Dorner) writes:
"About..." is primarily a marketing tool; this is who I am, this is
who wrote me, this is who you should send more cash to. Hence its
MSWord has its help in the about box... MPW has a nifty animation :-)
The shareware editor Alpha puts help there, too.
Explain to me how balloon help will tell me how to type a non-breaking
hyphen. To what shall I point?
No. The _HELP_MENU_ tells you this - under the specialized "Help On
Entering Hyphens" menu item, only available from the balloon help menu.
--
Jon W{tte
h+@nada.kth.se
- Speed !jose@calvin.ee.cornell.edu (Jose M. Rosado Roman) (06/15/91)
Wow!
I usually have a clock next to my mac. It's an analog with nice wind-up
key in the back...
I like Balloon-Help, I don't want to get rid of it since there will
certainly be things in future software that I will surely benefit from
having Balloon-Help. Actually I would like to have the choice to
have Balloon help either a) permanent on the menu bar
b) as it currently is
or c) not apparent or visible
Why? Because in our group we have folks with different tastes and
levels of understanding for the macs. I think that the Balloon-Help
should be put to greater use especially by those "super mac programmers"
out there that leave us wondering what the blazes some of their
stuff actually does. There is a lot that can be done to make current
software more "user-friendly" even on a mac (Wow! Never thought I would
have to write that!).
Peace, Love and (Wow!)
--
Pink Pirate, Inc. --------------------------------------------------------
------------------ Disclaimer: I am only related to my parents.
"The day they invented excuses, ...",by ??? Sorry, I forgot!
Jose M. Rosado, Radar Engineer, ex-grad student soon to be againtime@ice.com (Tim Endres) (06/15/91)
In article <53970@apple.Apple.COM>, keith@Apple.COM (Keith Rollin) writes: > "Counter-Macintosh"? When have to _ever_ been able to control what > menus you want in your menubar? According to your philosphy, I should > also be able to put my menubar down the right side of my screen, and > swap the positions of my goAway and Zoom boxes in my windows. Being > able to do that would be the ultimate in customization, but then > consistancy goes right out the window. Those all seem like perfectly reasonable requests. When will they be ready? I have ALWAYS HATED the zoom box being in the upper right corner. Am I the only person in the world who zooms out to see something, then zooms back in? If the zoom was next to the close, I could often click twice without moving my mouse. As it stands, I MUST move the mouse to re-zoom. The problem with a "consistent" user interface is *if* it consistently SUCKS. Who's consistency am I getting? I am all for consistency, as long as flexability comes with it. > You still haven't answered the question "How exactly is it getting in > your way?" My clock is now an inch left of where I look for it. I keep clicking on the stupid balloon when I want the date. Besides, I run five applications: MPW - No ballon help ResEdit - No ballon help uAccess Word - No ballon help SuperPaint - No ballon help How oftain am I gonna use that stupid FUCKING balloon? Let's face it. The Apple Macintosh UI police do not scale. The Macintosh is wonderful for idiots, but they refuse to allow the machine to be "flex-ed" by the power user. What really blows me away is how simple stupid ideas get into the MacOS, but truely brilliant ideas created by the hackers on the net get completely ignored. For example: You can drop anything you want into the Apple Menu, but it is *not* hierarchical! I want my Apple Menu Items folders to appear with their contents in a submenu. This has been done by INITs. Great idea lost. ----- You can FINALLY create a new folder in SFGetFile(). What happened to the ability to "jump" to folders in SFGetFile() (MUCH more common than creating a folder)? What happened to SFGetFile() remembering your scrolled location? JESUS! Simple shit, obvious, apparently too obvious. Again, Boomerang, SFVolInit and others have done this for a long time. These are just my two biggest pet peeves. There are many more examples. tim. ------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Endres | time@ice.com ICE Engineering | uupsi!ice.com!time 8840 Main Street | Voice FAX Whitmore Lake MI. 48189 | (313) 449 8288 (313) 449 9208
stanger@otago.ac.nz (Nigel Stanger) (06/16/91)
In article <1CE00001.h1mowr@avalon.caladan.wa.com>, stui@avalon.caladan.wa.com (Stuart Burden) writes: > In article <14058@goofy.Apple.COM>, lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) writes: > | Developers are encouraged to put their own help items there (rather than in > | the Apple menu, or in a hierarchical menu, or in the about box, or ...). > | The Finder does this already. You would lose access to these items without > | the help menu. > [ etc etc ] > > Now in practice a user will use an applications menu's constantly, that's > why developers place the important options on the menubar. How often > do users use help? Most companies of any repute have dedicated a > great deal of research to this, and I think you will find that interactive > Computer Based Training aids are more highly regarded than something > that pops up cartoon balloons.. really. You seem to have missed the intent of the original comment - that the items in the Help menu will *not* necessarily be for Balloon Help. They could very well be for something like the help in Word, which is quite good and very useful to have if you've forgotten how to do something. OK, so users generally don't use help very much once they've got the hang of things, but I still think Apple have the right idea with providing a standard place for *all* help (balloon or otherwise). DISCLAIMER: This is not a flame. -- See ya Nigel. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nigel Stanger, Internet: stanger@otago.ac.nz c/o University of Otago, P.O. Box 56, Phone: +64 3 479-8179 Dunedin, NEW ZEALAND. Fax: +64 3 479-8311 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "If I had a quote, I'd be wearing it." -- Bob Dylan ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lawson.English@p88.f15.n300.z1.fidonet.org (Lawson English) (06/17/91)
Tim Endres writes in a message to All
TE>
TE> I want my Apple Menu Items folders to appear with their contents
TE> in a submenu.
At least you can put an Apple Menu Items Folder alias in the Apple Menu Items
Folder and drop things into it without hunting for it.
Lawson
--
Uucp: ...{gatech,ames,rutgers}!ncar!asuvax!stjhmc!300!15.88!Lawson.English
Internet: Lawson.English@p88.f15.n300.z1.fidonet.orgnlewispn@cc.curtin.edu.au (Peter N Lewis) (06/17/91)
Well, this thread is getting very dull now, so I'll ask a real live question relating to this. Basically, where should my applications Help menu go? The obvious answer for System 7 seems to be that it should go in the Balloon help menu, using whatever resources IM6 defines, and it should not go in the File menu, nor in the apps About box. OK, but what happens when my app gets converted into some forein language and the menu names get so big that the Help menu disappears. How then does the user get to my app's help? Should there be an alternative "entrance" to my Help? What about consistency with System 6? Should I put (as I do at the moment) my help item in the About box & the File menu, and now also in System 7's Ballon menu? Surely there must be lots of Apple Thought Police listening to this thread (and handing out black marks for those foolish enough to disagree with Apple! :-), so whats the "aproved" place(s) for the help item under both System 6 & System 7? TIA, Peter. -- Disclaimer:Curtin & I have an agreement:Neither of us listen to either of us. *-------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+-------* Internet: Lewis_P@cc.curtin.edu.au I Peter Lewis Bitnet: Lewis_P%cc.curtin.edu.au@cunyvm.bitnet I NCRPDA, Curtin University UUCP: uunet!munnari.oz!cc.curtin.edu.au!Lewis_P I GPO Box U1987 PSImail: psi%050529452300070::Lewis_P I Perth, WA, 6001, AUSTRALIA Has anyone ever found someone who used a Mac and then Changed To a PC?
nick@cs.ed.ac.uk (Nick Rothwell) (06/17/91)
In article <1CE00001.h5kxly@tbomb.ice.com>, time@ice.com (Tim Endres) writes: > What really blows me away is how simple stupid ideas get into the > MacOS, but truely brilliant ideas created by the hackers on the net > get completely ignored. > > I want my Apple Menu Items folders to appear with their contents > in a submenu. I sure as hell don't. The Apple Menu works exactly as I want it to. I *hate* heirarchical menus. Just shows that we don't all consider the same ideas brilliant. It's not that easy. Nick. -- Nick Rothwell, Laboratory for Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh. nick@lfcs.ed.ac.uk <Atlantic Ocean>!mcsun!ukc!lfcs!nick ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ <-- WEST VIEWING ROOM EAST VIEWING ROOM -->
mjohnson@sirius.acs.calpoly.edu (Mark S. Johnson) (06/18/91)
How about a menu bar clock that, when clicked, fires up Balloon Help? The ol' have yer cake and eat it kinda thing.... -- Mark S. Johnson mjohnson@stn9.me.calpoly.edu (129.65.19.9)
dnebing@bgsuvax.UUCP (David Nebinger) (06/18/91)
From article <285ceb09.ea@sirius.acs.calpoly.edu>, by mjohnson@sirius.acs.calpoly.edu (Mark S. Johnson): > > How about a menu bar clock that, when clicked, fires up Balloon Help? > The ol' have yer cake and eat it kinda thing.... > > > -- > Mark S. Johnson mjohnson@stn9.me.calpoly.edu (129.65.19.9)
dnebing@bgsuvax.UUCP (David Nebinger) (06/18/91)
From article <285ceb09.ea@sirius.acs.calpoly.edu>, by mjohnson@sirius.acs.calpoly.edu (Mark S. Johnson): > > How about a menu bar clock that, when clicked, fires up Balloon Help? > The ol' have yer cake and eat it kinda thing.... This would probably solve the whole balloon help idea, and also put an end to this discussion. David Nebinger dnebing@andy.bgsu.edu
mxmora@unix.SRI.COM (Matt Mora) (06/18/91)
In article <12684@skye.cs.ed.ac.uk> nick@lfcs.ed.ac.uk writes: > >I sure as hell don't. The Apple Menu works exactly as I want it to. I *hate* >heirarchical menus. > >Just shows that we don't all consider the same ideas brilliant. It's not >that easy. > > Nick. > About the Apple menu. Has anybody else noticed how slow it is? When I click on the Apple menu I can see each item get drawn. And when I drag through the menu the hilite line does not keep up with the mouse. I'm assuming this is because there are small color icons in the menu. This doesn't happen with plain text menus. Is there any way to turn off the icon drawing or speed up the menu? Can I just install the old mdef? This is really starting to look like ms windows. -- ___________________________________________________________ Matthew Mora | my Mac Matt_Mora@sri.com SRI International | my unix mxmora@unix.sri.com ___________________________________________________________
pejacoby@mmm.serc.3m.com (Paul E. Jacoby) (06/18/91)
In article <1CE00001.h5kxly@tbomb.ice.com> time@ice.com writes: >The problem with a "consistent" user interface is *if* it consistently >SUCKS. Who's consistency am I getting? I am all for consistency, as >long as flexability comes with it. Oooops, sounds like someone got up on the wrong side of the interface today. How do you account for the 20+ megabytes of INIT and cdevs that I have in my archives? THAT is not a flexible system? >My clock is now an inch left of where I look for it. >I keep clicking on the stupid balloon when I want the date. Sounds like something a little operant conditioning could cure :-) >Besides, I run five applications: > > MPW - No ballon help > ResEdit - No ballon help > uAccess > Word - No ballon help > SuperPaint - No ballon help > >How oftain am I gonna use that stupid /expletive/ balloon? Seems to me that all of the above have been OUT for a while. You don't suppose they will be updated to USE the Help menu, do you? >These are just my two biggest pet peeves. There are many more examples. Hmmm, hopefully they will come for in a less bombastic form. -- | Paul E. Jacoby, 3M Company, 3M Center, 235-3F-27 | | Maplewood, MN 55144-1000 .-----------------------------------| | => pejacoby@3m.com | I'm afraid this is getting | | (612) 737-3211 | too silly! |
emmayche@dhw68k.cts.com (Mark Hartman) (06/19/91)
Tim Endres writes in a message to All
TE>
TE> I want my Apple Menu Items folders to appear with their contents
TE> in a submenu.
Well, the new version of HandOff (available RSN) lets you do this, according
to the developers. I'm supposed to be getting a beta copy any day now, but
it's almost ready for release as is.
--
Mark Hartman, N6BMO "What are you just standing there for? Where
Applelink: N1083 or BINARY.TREE do you think you are, DIS-ney World??"
Internet: emmayche@dhw68k.cts.com -- General Knowledge, from
uucp: ...{spsd,zardoz,felix}!dhw68k!emmayche CRANIUM COMMAND