rjd@occrsh.ATT.COM (Randy_Davis) (11/05/88)
OK, wanderer2 screens 13, 16, 17, 18, and 20 are impossible as distributed,
whether due to noise during transmission (e.g. the " in the lower right corner
of level 20), flat impossible by any explanation (e.g. the gems on level 17
completely surrounded by '!' and the wall, with no teleportation to them), or
due to just possible insufficient testing (e.g. the holding pattern the 'S's
get into on level 18, reminiscent of wanderer 1 level 13).
As a solution, I offer these replacements, corrected from the originals:
screen.13:
---------------------------cut here----------------------------
\ *OOOOOOO* * OOOOOOOO *
O\ *OOOOO* * = OOOOOOOO <
*\ *OOO* ================= OOOOOOOO<<
\ *O* O O O O O O = OOOOOOO<<<
\ * : < = OOOOOO<<<<
/ \ : * = OOOOO<<<<<
*/ :> / = OOOO<<<<<<
/ : < = OOO<<<<<<<
: * * @ * * / OO<<<<<<<<
:> / O<<<<<<<<<
+=**** S< -
X=T * =: \ -
================ == : \ -
>O:O>*<O=::::::= O= === \ -
>*O*O>*:**OOOO* := =O=========\ O O O O
*:::*::*=::::::= == A *:*:*:*:*
########################################
---------------------------cut here----------------------------
screen.16
---------------------------cut here----------------------------
*! !! O OO O-
! ! O + =*==*=*==*
!!! ! *O ! >>* * -
:\ >>>/ * -
\ >/ / -
: : : * / !<< / -
>>O* : /O><<<< * -
##* * * /*O* -
* #*#### O* !### -
# # \* !##O# -
\O ###\<<<<\ !##O<## -
*< \::: #*## !#*#O -
==== #### X## !#CC#* ===
= = C : ### !#CCC#/ *<=S
= = * @ : * : !#CC /=====-
+ S * : : !*CC / * -
########################################
50
---------------------------cut here----------------------------
screen.17
---------------------------cut here----------------------------
O O \OOO*OO> O O OOO !O O=
* \OOOO/ *** \*=:::: !X!OO:=
\ = \OO/ ====== :::=
=* +>::/ < /\:=
@ \ ! \ < ======: = -
\ !*! S *+= =T*
O !!!> / ======O ==
=*=== > / S : O-
*= !*= -
A= =\ > / -
<=== \ <=======*== =*
/ <= == = OO OO = **
=> *\ = /O O\ =>>>/*
=> <===== <<< = = =***= : !***
* \*=======* > =*=*!=*= =#####
########################################
########################################
---------------------------cut here----------------------------
screen.18
---------------------------cut here----------------------------
>>>O : O O O O
+>>O /* : : : :
+>O /* >O\# O # # #### #
+* /* O : \ \OO*O/
O + * : >O \#OOOO#
: + ##O##O# \O:/#
* + C # : *<# #
+ O ## # ##C # -
+ :/=\ * = #>*#### \ /-
>* @ \=/ \ /*
# #*# / \/##
# # S S S S S S S S # OOT
# #*################S O O:#
# # #O# :< #:# S O S ## O -
+#+*+# ## # #: # # # # #>* # #:#-
*#*#*# # M#*#A# ### X# #* # # # ***C
========================================
25
---------------------------cut here----------------------------
screen.20
---------------------------cut here----------------------------
OO = -
** >* / == = ::::::::::::::
/= = O * O * O -
*/ O<= = * \ \ \:=
/ >>>*=> / / / *
== = * / / :=
:===== = = / / -
O= ============ ========== === === ===
**<<< *=* *=* *=* *
========= :::==========================
*<<<===OO=====================
* ==== === *-
====OO= ====O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O==-
OO==OO= O= =* * * * * * * * * * *=-
T@ <OO=>==== *< =O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=O=-
XA ::**T** *= *-
########################################
---------------------------cut here----------------------------
I have tested all levels (including these new ones) and have been successful
getting through them. This was all done on a 3B2 running Unix System V release
2.0.4 with C compiler Issue 3 Version 0 (yeah, I know its older stuff, that's
why I am stating it.).
Good luck,
Randy Davis UUCP: ...(att!)ocrjd!randy
...(att!)occrsh!rjdplay@cwi.nl (The MC Funhouse Master) (11/05/88)
In article <438@occrsh.ATT.COM> rjd@occrsh.UUCP (Randy_Davis) writes: > > OK, wanderer2 screens 13, 16, 17, 18, and 20 are impossible as distributed, > whether due to noise during transmission (e.g. the " in the lower right corner > of level 20), flat impossible by any explanation (e.g. the gems on level 17 > completely surrounded by '!' and the wall, with no teleportation to them), or > due to just possible insufficient testing (e.g. the holding pattern the 'S's > get into on level 18, reminiscent of wanderer 1 level 13). > Two (13 and 20) are due to me so I want to offer an explanation. Screen 13 was possible with the previous version of the program, but (possibly not) with this version (I did not yet really try). The reason is simple, the boulders fall and arrows fly in a different order! I found this by applying the input I had for screen 8 to the new program; my input fails now. Version 20 has indeed a problem with the last line but one. This is a bug in the screen editor so it fails to write a - in the last position of the last line. (The loop that checks for - to be inserted is one too short.) -- Game Keeper Mail: play@cwi.nl
hans@duttnph.UUCP (Hans Buurman) (11/06/88)
In article <659@sering.cwi.nl> play@cwi.nl (The MC Funhouse Master) writes: >Two (13 and 20) are due to me so I want to offer an explanation. >Screen 13 was possible with the previous version of the program, >but (possibly not) with this version (I did not yet really try). >The reason is simple, the boulders fall and arrows fly in a >different order! I found this by applying the input I had for >screen 8 to the new program; my input fails now. >-- >Game Keeper >Mail: play@cwi.nl Could you suggest a solution, or do you agree with the solution posted today ? I could have guessed the cause of the problem, but I really want to go on with the game. I am stuck at screen 13, but I feel the breath of others in the back of my neck. If there is an error in the game, let's correct it and continue playing. The game is obviously attractive and addictive enough. My thanks to all those who contributed to it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Buurman | hans@duttnph.UUCP Pattern Recognition Group | mcvax!dutrun!duttnph!hans Faculty of Applied Physics | tel. 31 - (0) 15 - 78 46 94 Delft University of Technology | the Netherlands | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: any opinions expressed above are my own.
meulenbr@cstw01.UUCP (Frans Meulenbroeks) (11/07/88)
Hi! Several people have complained about the screens mentioned above. Various changes have been proposed. I'd like to comment on a few of these: screen 13: not solvable. suggested fix: ok screen 16: the corrected version send out by Steven Shipway is solvable. I'd suggest we use that one (it is harder). screen 17: not solvable as corrected by Steven: the suggested fix is (in my humble opinion) as good as another one. Can the author comment. screen 18: this screen IS solvable as distributed. Don't fix it. The looping of the S is in my opinion a feature and not a bug (if a monster wants to occupy a position that is already taken, it changes direction; seems fair). I'll include a very small hint on solving it at the end of this message. Note: screen 18 is very hard. I'm working on a screen which needs the same behaviour. but is a little less complicated. screen 20: not solvable. with suggested fix: not too hard. Remember: this game is tough! Don't complain too easy that a screen is not solvable. Thanks Steven, for creating such a great game. (by the way: it is easy to port this game to Minix/ST: you just need to declare a routine (I think getenv) somewhere, and you'll have to copy the structs in scores.c manually. And of course you'll need a curses. (Don't ask mine, it is not PD; sorry)) screen 18 small hint: Examine what causes the problem. Try to solve it using the same techniques. -- Frans Meulenbroeks (meulenbr@cst.prl.philips.nl) Centre for Software Technology ( or try: ...!mcvax!philmds!prle!cst!meulenbr)
rjd@occrsh.ATT.COM (Randy_Davis) (11/08/88)
In article <256@cstw01.UUCP> meulenbr@cstw01.UUCP (Frans Meulenbroeks) writes:
[.....]
:screen 16: the corrected version send out by Steven Shipway is solvable.
:I'd suggest we use that one (it is harder).
Huh??? I am all for using Steve's, yet I have not seen it (hence the
reason I posted my attempt at a fix)!! Could some kind soul send me the fix,
especially if it is harder and does not use the bug of the little monster's
holding patterns? Please???? - send to att.att.com!ocrjd!randy.
[....]
:screen 18: this screen IS solvable as distributed. Don't fix it.
:The looping of the S is in my opinion a feature and not a bug
:(if a monster wants to occupy a position that is already taken, it
:changes direction; seems fair).
Yeah, I was sure that some people were going to feel this way. I thought it
might be solvable, yet I saw no reason to try to outguess what I consider
a bug in the program (NO! - That's a feature!! :-). I guess the rule *I*
think the little monsters should follow is to go straight until they hit
something, then go clockwise around whatever they hit, following the
perimeter. Maybe I think they should be smarter than they are. What does
the author Steve Shipway think? (it seems that none of my mail to him gets
through - perhaps posting will).
[....]
:screen 18 small hint:
:Examine what causes the problem.
:Try to solve it using the same techniques.
Yes, but it is worth it??? We just disagree on this one...
:Frans Meulenbroeks (meulenbr@cst.prl.philips.nl)
: Centre for Software Technology
: ( or try: ...!mcvax!philmds!prle!cst!meulenbr)
Randy Davis UUCP: ...(att!)ocrjd!randy
...(att!)occrsh!rjdchrys@alberta.UUCP (Chris Helmers) (11/10/88)
I would certainly appreciate Mr. Shipway's stamp of approval on the suggested screen fixes. Perhaps we are being too rigorous in insisting that we need approval from the source but, I for one, feel that the original screens (designed by Mr. Shipway, I presume) are implicitly an extension of "intent" of the game. I would certainly be disappointed if I were to get stuck on a level and, concluding it to be insoluble, accept a fix only to find that the original level was, in fact, soluble (see article 534 in this group). Mr. Shipway, if levels 1 through 20 are soluble (ie, you have solved them or you know that someone has solved them) as they stand, let us know so that we need not be concerned about proposed fixes; otherwise, ... Again, much thanks for this enjoyable game. -Chris Helmers
jmb@warwick.UUCP (James M Beckett) (11/10/88)
In article <443@occrsh.ATT.COM> rjd@occrsh.UUCP (Randy_Davis) writes: >think the little monsters should follow is to go straight until they hit >something, then go clockwise around whatever they hit, following the >perimeter. Maybe I think they should be smarter than they are. What does >the author Steve Shipway think? (it seems that none of my mail to him gets >through - perhaps posting will). > You can try... We've been trying to persuade him ever since he created the little monsters, long before Wanderer was posted. (I was there in the beginning, yes, I can still remember: "Come on, come on, test it; I've added boulders now..." ;-) ) I too think they should go straight on if they lose their way, but Steve insists that doing what they do is correct, and indeed A Feature. The question is, how many screens will be broken (!?) if it is implemented? I know of several cases where it will certainly make a very difficult screen too easy (although it'll depend on which way they end up pointing after being stunned). It's happened for other fairly minor updates, like order of arrow movement, except that that usually cut the other way. -James Disclaimer: I can't even remember how to do my own screens now. +----------------------------------+------------------------------------+ James Beckett, Computer Science, | JANET: jmb@uk.ac.warwick.cs University of Warwick, | UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!warwick!jmb Coventry CV4 7AL, England. | PHONE: +44 203 520995 +----------------------------------+-------------------------------42---+ "I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible." -Dirk Gently "Except, of course, screen 18 of Wanderer"
hans@duttnph.UUCP (Hans Buurman) (11/11/88)
In article <518@cavell.UUCP> chrys@alberta.UUCP (Chris Helmers) writes: > > I would certainly appreciate Mr. Shipway's stamp of approval on the > suggested screen fixes. (...) > Mr. Shipway, if levels 1 through 20 are soluble (ie, you have solved > them or you know that someone has solved them) as they stand, let us > know so that we need not be concerned about proposed fixes; otherwise, > ... I would like to second (third) this.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Buurman | hans@duttnph.UUCP Pattern Recognition Group | mcvax!dutrun!duttnph!hans Faculty of Applied Physics | tel. 31 - (0) 15 - 78 46 94 Delft University of Technology | the Netherlands | -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
maujp@warwick.ac.uk (S Shipway) (11/12/88)
In article <816@ubu.warwick.UUCP> jmb@opal.UUCP (James Beckett) writes: On the subject of the baby monster 'feature', and getting me to fix it... >You can try... We've been trying to persuade him ever since he created >the little monsters, long before Wanderer was posted. ... Didnt anyone get the diffs I posted? They contained a fix for the monster movement feature... > >Disclaimer: I can't even remember how to do my own screens now. > ... and he cant do any of the others, either ... -Steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- maujp@uk.ac.warwick.cu csupt@uk.ac.warwick.cu #include<disclaimer.h> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
play@cwi.nl (The MC Funhouse Master) (11/13/88)
In article <534@dutrun.UUCP> hans@duttnph.UUCP (Hans Buurman) writes: > In article <659@sering.cwi.nl> play@cwi.nl (The MC Funhouse Master) writes: .... > Could you suggest a solution, or do you agree with the solution > posted today ? I could have guessed the cause of the problem, but > I really want to go on with the game. I am stuck at screen 13, but > I feel the breath of others in the back of my neck. > I think the solution as posted for screen 13 is alright. The modification to 20 (addition of a - in the last line but one is obvious). For 16 the screen as corrected by Steven Shipway ought to be used. 17 is still not solvable as corrected. The screen as posted on the net is solvable, but too simple. Below follows the version as I suggest it. Screen 18 is difficult because of the wandering monsters. Putting the gem as suggested makes it solvable, but perhaps a bit too easy. However, I think that is the way to go. Here my proposal for screen 17, based on the correction posted: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! O O \OOO*OO> O O OOO !O O= * \OOOO/ *** \*=:::: !X!OO:= \ = \OO/ ====== :::= =* +>::/ < /\:= @ \ ! \ < ======: = = \ !*! S *+* =T* O !!!> / ======O == =*=== > / S : O - *= !*= - A= =\ > / - <=== \ <=======*== =* / <= == = OO OO = *= => *\ = /O O\ =>>>/! => <===== <<< = = =***= : !*!* * \*=======* > =*=*!=*= = - ######################################## ######################################## !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
play@cwi.nl (The MC Funhouse Master) (11/14/88)
How embarassing: In article <670@sering.cwi.nl> I write: > Here my proposal for screen 17, based on the correction posted: .... The result of having both old and new versions on line. This one would work with the old version, but not with the new version. Change: > \ !*! S *+* =T* > O !!!> / ======O == > =*=== > / S : O - to: > \ !*! S *+* =T* > O !!!> / ======O == > =*=== > / S : O- You might also want to add screen.ken as screen.21 (it is solvable), and if you have the old screen.11, add it as screen.22. In the mean time add the following two lines to the credits file: > Screen 21 Kenton Oatley (the resurrected screen no.13) > Screen 22 Steven Shipway (who does not acknowledge it) It has been asked whether the differences between the two versions of wanderer are bugs or not. I do not think they are bugs; the game is a bit more consistent now. But the versions are sufficiently different so that screens valid for one version will not work on the other. As mentioned already the original screen.13 would not work with the new version; on the other hand, screen.16 will not work with the old version. So, I believe we should stick now with the new version, and hope that no major changes will occur again. I see that the X version of wanderer is based on the original issue, with all the bugs. I do not think it is much work (but it is a bit tedious) to adapt it to the new version. -- Game Keeper Mail: play@cwi.nl
games@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (Fun and Games) (11/15/88)
Screen 18 which some thought might be impossible is consistently solvable. Small **SPOILER** follows: No unlikely and peculiar pattern of baby monsters is needed. Since the solution is relatively direct, once the required trick is figured out, I believe that the screen should be left as distributed and not changed. If someone does not believe that the screen is consistently solvable, send me mail and I'll mail them a give away hint. If there are a lot of requests, I'll post with suitable spoiler warnings. In article <671@sering.cwi.nl> play@cwi.nl (The MC Funhouse Master) writes: >As mentioned already the original screen.13 would not work with the new >version; on the other hand, screen.16 will not work with the old version. >-- ^^^^^^^^^ >Game Keeper >Mail: play@cwi.nl I assume you are referring to a modified screen.16 here, the original I received was impossible with any version because there were more cages than baby monsters. You haven't found a way to get an 'M' into a '+' have you? games@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU aka jmckerna.polyslo.CalPoly.EDU ---------------------------------------------------------- Sig?! I'm much too busy intalling and improving games to come up with a sig!
maujp@warwick.ac.uk (S Shipway) (11/15/88)
In article <671@sering.cwi.nl> play@cwi.nl (The MC Funhouse Master) writes: ... >The result of having both old and new versions on line. This one would >work with the old version, but not with the new version. ... OK, an explanation... In the second version, I tidied up the fall() function so that it would work faster and more economically. I tried to get the order of checking as similar as possible, but obviously a few differences would exist. The problem occurs when people design screens with 'hanging' boulders or arrows - this was never supposed to be done really, and the program expects the screen to be in equilibrium at the start. If you give it a screen with no large 'hanging' sections it will work on both versions. You will note that none of *my* screens have hanging boulders ( well, except one :-). Since the 'hanging' boulders produced no errors (until now) I havent bothered to mention them as they increased the range of problems you can design. Of course, with the diff I posted a little while ago, there should be less need for hanging boulders as you can use the balloons etc. ... although I forsee a large number of new problems on the horizon. -Steven Shipway -----------------------------------------+------------------------------------ JANET: maujp@uk.ac.warwick.cu |#include <disclaimer.h> ARPA: maujp@cu.warwick.ac.uk | I am really an AI program BITNET: maujp%uk.ac.warwick.cu@UKACRL |#include <quote.h> UUCP: maujp%uk.ac.warwick.cu@ukc.uucp | "I hate you, Monday!" or even ...!mcvax!ukc!warwick!maujp +------------------------------------ SNAIL: Maths dept., University of Warwick, Coventry. LOCAL: "Hey, Steve!" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------