alves@aludra.usc.edu (William Alves) (10/28/89)
In article <Oct.26.10.11.42.1989.5181@elbereth.rutgers.edu> cornicel@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Cornicello) writes: > >I have been recently getting into the music emanating from France, >i.e. Murail and Grisey. I am basically aware of their concept, which >is to use the spectre produced by acoustic instruments as the basis >for the harmonic aspect of thier pieces (I think), but I am not >totally aware of the entire process. I would like to know if anyone >has seen any articles relating to this topic, or knows of any sources >one could go to in reference to this. > I'm afraid I can't help you too much on the sources, but I thought I'd ven- ture what I know (as well as an opinion). *Research* in acoustics as a basis for art seems to be a foundational idea for the Boulez school (whence IRCAM), and one way they have come up with realizing this is by attempting to repro- duce complex acoustic spectra orchestrationally or using the spectral content as the basis for pitch sets. The pieces I've heard which do this do it one of two ways: 1) by analyzing complex timbres such as bells (as in Jonathan Harvey's IRCAM piece), gongs, etc., but not those with harmonic spectra, as that would yield a static pitch set (theoretically); 2) by recreating orches- trationally electronic effects such as ring modulation. Now, I think these are great ideas, especially the first, but, personally, I think they went about it all wrong. In order to reconcile these spectra to equal temperament and hence twelve-tone music and serialism, the works I've heard "round off" the frequencies to the nearest semitone. I brought this question up briefly to Marc Batier of IRCAM when he was here, but he didn't see the contradicton that I did. To my ear, the "fusion" of partials that is so fascinating in these complex timbres is ruined by restricting it to semitones. The tuning is crucial to this effect. Of course, that is very difficult to achieve in a standard or- chestra, but worth the effort to me. Or else you can get a tunable Yamaha synth and leave the orchestra and parts-copying behind. Let's hear it for just intonation! Bill Alves USC School of Music / Center for Scholarly Technology
cornicel@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Cornicello) (10/28/89)
In article <6066@merlin.usc.edu> alves@aludra.usc.edu (Bill Alves) writes: >In article <Oct.26.10.11.42.1989.5181@elbereth.rutgers.edu> cornicel@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Cornicello) writes: >> [deleted my own article] >> >I'm afraid I can't help you too much on the sources, but I thought I'd ven- >ture what I know (as well as an opinion). *Research* in acoustics as a basis >for art seems to be a foundational idea for the Boulez school (whence IRCAM), >and one way they have come up with realizing this is by attempting to repro- >duce complex acoustic spectra orchestrationally or using the spectral content >as the basis for pitch sets. The pieces I've heard which do this do it one >of two ways: 1) by analyzing complex timbres such as bells (as in Jonathan >Harvey's IRCAM piece), gongs, etc., but not those with harmonic spectra, as >that would yield a static pitch set (theoretically); 2) by recreating orches- >trationally electronic effects such as ring modulation. > >Now, I think these are great ideas, especially the first, but, personally, I >think they went about it all wrong. In order to reconcile these spectra to >equal temperament and hence twelve-tone music and serialism, the works I've >heard "round off" the frequencies to the nearest semitone. I brought this >question up briefly to Marc Batier of IRCAM when he was here, but he didn't >see the contradicton that I did. > Well, I've got a Murail score in front of me (brought over by a friend), and not only does it have quarter-tones, but there are further subdivisions than that! You might have seen an early version of this principle. Oh, and let's hear it for "just intonation" I would like to see some alternate tunings listed on this board. How about eliminating the octave? -ac
ladasky@codon3.berkeley.edu (John Ladasky;1021 Solano No. 2;528-8666) (10/28/89)
In article <Oct.27.18.19.14.1989.23438@elbereth.rutgers.edu> cornicel@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Cornicello) writes: >Oh, and let's hear it for "just intonation" I would like to see some >alternate tunings listed on this board. How about eliminating the octave? Take a look at some Middle Eastern music. The scales are built up by successive tetrachords, some of which do not close at the the octave. Inter- vals of 3/4 and 3/2-tone can be found in addition to the usual whole and half- step. For more information, see what you can find by a late 19th-century researcher named d'Erlanger (I wish I could tell you more, but unfortunately, I am simply taking a class in Middle Eastern music, and I don't have direct access to any of the primary sources...). T CROSS POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS POLICE LINE DO NOT CR _______________________________________________________________________________ "Do unto others as you would like - John J. Ladasky ("ii") to do unto them. " Richard Bach (ladasky@enzyme.berkeley.edu)
elkies@brauer.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies) (10/30/89)
[Possibly a repeat post--apologies] In article <Oct.27.18.19.14.1989.23438@elbereth.rutgers.edu> cornicel@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Cornicello) writes: >Oh, and let's hear it for "just intonation" I would like to see some >alternate tunings listed on this board. How about eliminating the octave? I take it that you mean eliminating the 2:1 octave as the basis of tuning, not eliminating octaves in scores (as some dialects of serial music do). Well, this is standard practice in piano tuning, because the overtones of physical piano wire of positive stiffness grow increasingly sharp to the Pythagorean harmonic series, and each octave is tuned by "beats" so that the first overtone of the bottom note matches the fundamental of the top. This has the effect of narrowing the comma between the perfect and tempered fifth, but widening the comma between the physical third partial and the tempered twelfth. To further confuse matters, for the sake of tone quality the three strings of each course are generally tuned a beat or two apart... But of course all this still amounts to a tuning system anchored on the octave. Before rushing to dethrone the octave, though, consider this: While the initial rationale for octave-based tuning may have been no more than numerology and arbitrary mysticism, such tuning had profound implications for Western music which took ages to work out anywhere near completely. Anybody have a few centuries to spare on a tuning system based on alternating Golden Ratios and the square root of pi? Remember to take out a few decades from composition to creating the new instruments and musical training that this would require. :-) :-) --Noam D. Elkies (elkies@zariski.haravrd.edu) Department of Mathematics, Harvard Univ.
alves@aludra.usc.edu (William Alves) (10/31/89)
In article <3007@husc6.harvard.edu> elkies@brauer.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies) writes: [re: eliminating octaves in tuning systems:] >Well, this is standard practice in piano tuning, because the overtones >of physical piano wire of positive stiffness grow increasingly sharp to >the Pythagorean harmonic series, and each octave is tuned by "beats" >so that the first overtone of the bottom note matches the fundamental >of the top. Another famous example of stretched and compressed octaves are the tuning systems found in some parts of Indonesia. While these intervals are still nominally octaves (as in the piano), they are detuned by a precise amount to introduce beats into the parallel octaves which predominate the texture. See Mantle Hood's "Pelog and Slendro Redefined" in _Selected Reports_ #1. Wendy Carlos has a few non-octave-replicating tuning systems on her "Beauty and the Beast" album inspired by the Indonesian practice. > >But of course all this still amounts to a tuning system anchored on the >octave. Before rushing to dethrone the octave, though, consider this: >While the initial rationale for octave-based tuning may have been no more >than numerology and arbitrary mysticism, such tuning had profound implications >for Western music which took ages to work out anywhere near completely. >Anybody have a few centuries to spare on a tuning system based on alternating >Golden Ratios and the square root of pi? Remember to take out a few decades >from composition to creating the new instruments and musical training that >this would require. :-) :-) One has to admire a brave soul such as Harry Partch, who did just that. How- ever, if one is willing to limit oneself to computer music, one doesn't have to be a good carpenter at all. Admittedly, it does take some relearning of intervals and sonorities in addition to a sound knowledge of the theories of tuning systems, but, to me, it's well worth it. Bill Alves USC School of Music / Center for Scholarly Technology
cornicel@elbereth.rutgers.edu (Cornicello) (10/31/89)
In article <3007@husc6.harvard.edu> elkies@brauer.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies) writes: > >I take it that you mean eliminating the 2:1 octave as the basis of tuning, >not eliminating octaves in scores (as some dialects of serial music do). I am not aware of this, but I guess this would involve octave non-equivilence and the use of something like 72-note rows. Interesting.... >But of course all this still amounts to a tuning system anchored on the >octave. Before rushing to dethrone the octave, though, consider this: >While the initial rationale for octave-based tuning may have been no more >than numerology and arbitrary mysticism, such tuning had profound implications >for Western music which took ages to work out anywhere near completely. >Anybody have a few centuries to spare on a tuning system based on alternating >Golden Ratios and the square root of pi? Remember to take out a few decades >from composition to creating the new instruments and musical training that >this would require. :-) :-) I'm not out to kill the octave. It is a good placeholder. Seriously, the music that I write is for standard instruments using standard tuning. I have recently been doing some research in computer music, and I thought it would be a interesting concept to use all availible frequencies with some degree of organization. Perhaps using a multi-octave span to deliniate the range would be interesting. For instance, a 5-octave span that is divided in a way to avoid internal octaves. Of course, I would only be using this system on a computer, using something like cmusic. ====================================================== | "Klingon wessels approaching, Kepten!" | | "Dammit Jim, if those men die, they'll | | never live again!!!" | |____________________________________________________| | Anthony Cornicello - Society for Silly Quotes | | cornicel@rutgers.elbereth.edu | ======================================================
rreid@esquire.UUCP ( r l reid ) (11/08/89)
In article <3068@husc6.harvard.edu> elkies@zariski.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies) writes: > >New computer technology makes it easy to accomplish what in earlier >times would have required heroic efforts. Remember the responsibility >that comes with this power. > (I enjoyed Noam's article but I gotta take a few pokes here...) Mercy me! Heaven forbid we should make any "bad music" as we go along! Do you suppose Stradavarius had this attitude when he made his first violin (which doubtless was not very good)? Guess it's back to 18th century counterpoint and mean tuning, huh? Until I learn to be a "responsible composer". -- Ro rreid@esquire.dpw.com {phri|cucard}!hombre!cmcl2!esquire!rreid rlr@woof.columbia.edu
zcch0a@spock.uucp (Chris Humphrey) (11/09/89)
The equal tempered western scale has an interesting property: every interval (but 1) in the first 21 intervals is a harmony, and nearly every possible harmony is represented. I have not made an exhaustive computer search for "lost chords", but there appear to be only a few, such as 6:7. The above statement is based on the empirical discovery by Pythagoras (not numerology) that what we hear as a harmony is a small rational number in the ratio of frequencies. Many of the intervals are not exact ratios, but all are within 1%, and there is no smaller ratio that is closer. This is not true for interval 1, i.e. two notes next to each other. Counting all the white and black keys, the correspondence between interval and small rational number is as follows: 2 - 8:9, 3 - 5:6, 4 - 4:5, 5 - 3:4, 6 - 5:7, 7 - 2:3, 8 - 5:8, 9 - 3:5, 10 - 5:9, 11 - 7:13, 12 - 1:2, 13 - 7:15, 14 - 4:9, 15 - 3:7, 16 - 2:5, 17 - 3:8, 18 - 5:14, 19 - 1:3, 20 - 4:13, 21 - 3:10. Each of these harmonies has its own distinct mood and feel, some "positive", some "negative". Medieval music favored 2:3, in the Renaissance and Baroque they liked 3:4, and romantic and pop music prefers 4:5. What I think might be interesting (though possibly disconcerting because of unfamiliarity) is to dynamically alter the tuning of chords to make the harmonies exact. It is possible to run interesting graphics off the interval between successive or simultaneous notes. I wrote a program for the Commodore-64 which makes very beautiful graphics based on the harmonies. Each individual figure is an ellipse where the major/minor axes ratio is the same as the harmony. Also the size in each dimension is inversely related to the size of the number. 2:3 is a large figure, 7:15 is small. To reduce the drawing time, I merely suggest the figure with radial lines. The number of lines is the same as the interval number. To further reduce drawing time, I draw the outermost point, 1 halfway to the center, 1 halfway from there to the endpoint, and one more halfway from there to the endpoint. Successive hits on the same interval cause it to cycle through 3 foreground colors and the background color (i.e. it will disappear). On the whole, however, the figures accumulate on the screen, and form complex interactions resembling a rose window. smail: 4502 E. 41st St Rm 325,Tulsa, OK 74135 C. Humphrey voice: (918) 660-4045 uucp: uunet!apctrc!zcch0a
rchrd@well.UUCP (Richard Friedman) (11/18/89)
Those interested in "spectral composition" should become aware of
the work of the Romanian composer (living in Paris, and who considers
himself now French) Horatiu Radulescu. Most of his pieces for large and
small ensembles over the past 15 years have required altering the
tunings of the instruments to create entirely new and unusual sonic
spaces.
His most outrageous piece (which may soon be released in CD) is called
"Infinite to be cannot be infinite -
infinte anti-be could be infinite."
It is his opus 33 and was composed between 1976 - 1987 and is for
nine string quartets or a live string quartet surrounded by 8 recorded
string quartets. It was performed a few years ago (with the Arditti
quartet both live and recorded) at a festival of new music in London.
Radulescu, in this piece, treats the 8 pre-recorded string quartets as
an imaginary 128 stringed instrument using what he calls a "spectral
scordatura of 128 different and unique pitches corresponding to a harmonic
spectrum (components 36 to 641). The tuning of this 'viola da gamba' with
128 differently tuned strings (tuning based on a logarithmic division
of the octaves by 8,16,32,64,etc) forms a variably dense 'geology' of
frequency plateaux. The gambit of this instrument is based on a C
fundamental of 1Hz. The central (live) quartet is tuned in a'=431Hz."
The above description is taken from notes Radulescu gave me recently
regarding "Infinite..." His language is hard to understand at times,
but the music is not easily describable. I have a tape of the piece,
but I am told that to hear it in person is another experience. The
live quartet is in the center of the hall, the audience sits around
the quartet, and the speakers for the 8 recorded quartets surround the
audience.
What you hear is a wash of sound, like glass wind chimes, shimmering.
These intervals create what Radulescu calls "micro-music", caused by the
beats between notes, evoking rhythmic cycles all their own.
At present, none of Radulescu's music (over 70 works) is available on
recordings, altho he is often performed thru out Europe, but he tells
me that recordings will be coming out next year in Paris and Berlin.
So, it is possible to compose and perform "spectral" music on
traditional instruments, if you can convince the players to mis-tune
a bit.
Last June I interviewed Radulescu on KPFA here in Berkeley and
presented some of his pieces from recordings he brought of live
performances. It was quite extraordinary. I understand that the
score for "Infinite.." was produced by computer but I was not able
to determine in what way. More information will be coming.
/s/ rchrd <=> Richard Friedman <=> rchrd@well
rchrd@well.sf.ca.us | {apple,pacbell,hplabs,ucbvax}!well!rchrd
--
/s/ rchrd <=> Richard Friedman <=> rchrd@well
rchrd@well.sf.ca.us | {apple,pacbell,hplabs,ucbvax}!well!rchrd
[Pacific-Sierra Research / Berkeley CA] (415) 540-5216
(The usual disclaimers apply - I speak only for myself!)