paul@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Craig Paul) (11/28/89)
I would tend to distinguish between "perfect frequency" and "perfect interval". My "perfect interval" seems to have been calibrated/trained for equal temperment. This makes runs up and down justly intoned scales "grimacable", though I like "alternate" tunings very much. I have "nearly" perfect frequency, sometimes I'm a few cents flat, sometimes a few cents sharp. I have to refresh my internal A=440 reference by listening to WWV(H) or a "well tempered" synthesizer.
scott@bbxsda.UUCP (Scott Amspoker) (11/28/89)
In article <18807@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> paul@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Craig Paul) writes: >I have "nearly" perfect frequency, sometimes I'm a few cents flat, sometimes >a few cents sharp. I have to refresh my internal A=440 reference by listening >to WWV(H) or a "well tempered" synthesizer. I remember music theory class back in college. We would have to do musical dictation. The professor would play something on the piano and we would write it down. The professor would start by playing a note and saying something like, "this is G#". It was never the note he was actually playing. This was to annoy the "perfect pitch" students so they would be forced to hear the intervals rather than the absolute pitches. -- Scott Amspoker Basis International, Albuquerque, NM (505) 345-5232 unmvax.cs.unm.edu!bbx!bbxsda!scott
ladasky@codon4.berkeley.edu (John Ladasky;1021 Solano No. 2;528-8666) (11/28/89)
In article <365@bbxsda.UUCP> scott@bbxsda.UUCP (Scott Amspoker) writes: >I remember music theory class back in college. We would have to do musical >dictation. The professor would play something on the piano and we would >write it down. The professor would start by playing a note and saying >something like, "this is G#". It was never the note he was actually playing. >This was to annoy the "perfect pitch" students so they would be forced to >hear the intervals rather than the absolute pitches. > I have a pretty good sense of absolute pitch, but it can take me several seconds to identify certain pitches, depending on the context. Once I get going, though (e.g., if the piece has an identifable tone center, and I've identified it), then I tend to listen intervallically. I hope that that professor of yours did not discourage the use of absolute pitch, though. For a lot of modern works, I find the use of absolute pitch to be a better guide than relative pitch (for the reasons stated above - no tone center, strange context, etc.). Other people seem to think so too - our choral director is attempting to impart a good sense of absolute pitch to the chorus, in preparation for the Penderecki piece we're singing in the spring. T CROSS POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS POLICE LINE DO NOT CR _______________________________________________________________________________ "Do unto others as you would like - John J. Ladasky ("ii") to do unto them. " Richard Bach (ladasky@enzyme.berkeley.edu)
abrams@cs.columbia.edu (Steven Abrams) (11/28/89)
In article <365@bbxsda.UUCP> scott@bbxsda.UUCP (Scott Amspoker) writes:
I remember music theory class back in college. We would have to do musical
dictation. The professor would play something on the piano and we would
write it down. The professor would start by playing a note and saying
something like, "this is G#". It was never the note he was actually playing.
This was to annoy the "perfect pitch" students so they would be forced to
hear the intervals rather than the absolute pitches.
Being a student with perfect pitch, I remember certain music theory
dictations that really bugged me. I was so used to picking out
pitches without hearing intervals, that to determine, say a
half-diminished seventh chord, I'd pick out the notes and visualize
the chord to see what it was -- as a result, I was very bad at
identifying chords by their feelings. I almost wished that early on I
had a teacher who did exactly what you describe, just to develop my
sense of intervals.
Of course, the same teacher in High School who disliked my method for
identifying chords used me to impress judges at choral competitions.
I'd lightly humm the starting note, and the entire choir would start
off a capella, on pitch, without an audible starting note on the piano
or a pitch pipe :-)
~~~Steve
--
/*************************************************
*
*Steven Abrams abrams@cs.columbia.edu
*
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#include <std/dumquote.h>
#include <std/disclaimer.h>gaia@portia.Stanford.EDU (fai to leung) (11/28/89)
In article <1989Nov27.212927.3253@agate.berkeley.edu> ladasky@codon4.berkeley.edu.UUCP (John Ladasky) writes: > I hope that that professor of yours did not discourage the use of >absolute pitch, though. For a lot of modern works, I find the use of absolute >pitch to be a better guide than relative pitch (for the reasons stated >above - no tone center, strange context, etc.). Other people seem to think >so too - our choral director is attempting to impart a good sense of absolute >pitch to the chorus, in preparation for the Penderecki piece we're singing >in the spring. Just cursious, will listening to intervals instead of pitches enhances a "grasp" of music context? Or vice versa? I don't have absolute pitch and am interested to know the other side of the story. Or is this a totally different issue?
scott@bbxsda.UUCP (Scott Amspoker) (11/29/89)
In article <7051@portia.Stanford.EDU> gaia@portia.Stanford.EDU (fai to leung) writes: >Just cursious, will listening to intervals instead of pitches enhances >a "grasp" of music context? Or vice versa? I don't have absolute pitch and >am interested to know the other side of the story. Or is this a totally >different issue? First of all, I don't have perfect pitch. I can say that a big part of music is about harmony and harmony is about relativity, i.e., frequency ratios. Over the years of playing in a band I have trained myself to hear the relationships (intervals) without much trouble. I could hear a song on the car radio and mentally "feel" my fingers playing it on a keyboard although I have no idea what key the song is in for lack of an absolute pitch reference. Also, many singers can sight read sheet music by seeing the *change of pitch* between the notes (although some singers do have absolute pitch and may very well read the notes themselves). If the song needs to be transposed there should be much of a problem. From my point of view, relative pitch (which is far more common than absolute pitch) seems more practical. I've always considered those with absolute pitch to be "gifted". They have an extra tool in their little bag of tricks but I don't think it replaces the need for relative pitch. Along a similar vein, consider the concept of tempo. Tempo is also relative - half notes, quarter notes. Is there anyone out there with "absolute tempo"? In other words, if the song calls for a tempo of 120 beats/minute can such a person *acurately* do that without the assistance of a metronome? Interesting, no? -- Scott Amspoker Basis International, Albuquerque, NM (505) 345-5232 unmvax.cs.unm.edu!bbx!bbxsda!scott
dts@quad.uucp (David T. Sandberg) (11/29/89)
In article <7051@portia.Stanford.EDU> gaia@portia.Stanford.EDU (fai to leung) writes:
:Just cursious, will listening to intervals instead of pitches enhances
:a "grasp" of music context? Or vice versa? I don't have absolute pitch and
:am interested to know the other side of the story. Or is this a totally
:different issue?
I don't know if it's a different issue or not, but here's what I think.
It's my opinion that absolute pitch can be a help in performing difficult
pieces, especially for a vocalist, but is not as important in other areas.
As far as "grasping musical context" goes, I believe that sensitivity to
intervallic movement is far more important.
I myself have nothing resembling absolute pitch, but am much better with
intervallic relationships. I feel that, particularly from the viewpoint
of a songwriter, the ability to discern relative pitch has been far more
valuable to me than absolute pitch would have been, and I certainly would
not trade it for the other if given the chance.
However, if someone knows good techniques for practicing absolute pitch
identification, I'm not adverse to trying them. Perfect pitch certainly
wouldn't be a great hindrance. ;')
--
David Sandberg dts@quad.uucp or ..uunet!rosevax!sialis!quad!dtsmjs@hpfcso.HP.COM (Marc Sabatella) (11/29/89)
>From my point of view, relative pitch (which is far more common than absolute >pitch) seems more practical. I've always considered those with absolute >pitch to be "gifted". They have an extra tool in their little bag of >tricks but I don't think it replaces the need for relative pitch. It actually gets in the way at times; for example, as you pointed out, when transposing. It makes the nifty auto-transpose feature of my electronic keyboard less useful than it otherwise would be. I am a jazz player, and I often accompany singers who like to do tunes in keys other than they are written in, and it can be annoying to "hear" in my mind a line to play, but find it is wrong when I go to play it. Luckily, my sense of pitch is not *too* perfect. But that, combined with the feeling that I am "cheating" (and the fact that I can never remember how do get it to work!), keeps me from using the transpose feature. On the other hand, there is one occasion I can remember hearing someone with absolute pitch do something no one else could probably do, in a musical context. Marcus Roberts (Wynton Marsalis' pianist, at least until recently) was in the middle of a solo, playing around the middle of the piano, when he suddenly reached up and hit a note in one of the upper octaves. It is impossible for me to describe how *right* that note was, but all the musicians I was sitting with let out audible gasps at that point. They were impressed that he was able to find that note, at such a distance that the relative pitch most musicians have would have failed. They were impressed without even knowing the man was blind, so it was not a case of "how did he find that note without being able to see it"; it was just "how did he find that note?" -------------- Marc Sabatella (marc%hpfcrt@hplabs.hp.com) Disclaimers: 2 + 2 = 3, for suitably small values of 2 Bill and Dave may not always agree with me
mketch@pawl.rpi.edu (Michael D. Ketchen) (11/30/89)
In <357@quad.uucp> dts@quad.uucp (David T. Sandberg) writes: | However, if someone knows good techniques for practicing absolute pitch | identification, I'm not adverse to trying them. Perfect pitch certainly | wouldn't be a great hindrance. ;') Actually, perfect pitch can be a hindrance. I have a friend here at school with perfect pitch, and when he hears a recording in our Music Analysis class that's in a different key than the score he's trying to follow along with, he can't do it. (Or at least it takes a lot of work.) He als has a lot of trouble reading other clefs (ie. tenor, alto, etc.) since the notes are in the "wrong place" for the sound they make. I also have a cousin who is a concert pianist, and if she hears a piece she knows in a different key than she knows it in, she has to leave or it will drive her crazy. | -- | David Sandberg dts@quad.uucp or ..uunet!rosevax!sialis!quad!dts - Mike -- -- |XXX| __/\__ |XXX|--------------------------+-----------------********========= |XXX| \ / |XXX| Michael D. Ketchen | This space ********========= |XXX| /____\ |XXX| mketch@pawl.rpi.edu | for rent... ================= |XXX| ][ |XXX| mketch@rpitsmts.bitnet +-----------------=================
ladasky@codon1.berkeley.edu (John Ladasky;1021 Solano No. 2;528-8666) (11/30/89)
In article <357@quad.uucp> dts@quad.uucp (David T. Sandberg) writes: [...] >However, if someone knows good techniques for practicing absolute pitch >identification, I'm not adverse to trying them. Perfect pitch certainly >wouldn't be a great hindrance. ;') > I simply became accustomed to hearing certain pieces of music in certain keys. Eventually, I found that I could sing a piece in the same key in which I had heard it without any accompaniment. For a few years, certain pitches would remain associated with certain pieces of music, but eventually, I could identify the pitches by themselves. T CROSS POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS POLICE LINE DO NOT CR _______________________________________________________________________________ "Do unto others as you would like - John J. Ladasky ("ii") to do unto them. " Richard Bach (ladasky@enzyme.berkeley.edu)
doug@ntvax.uucp (Douglas Scott) (11/30/89)
In article <7051@portia.Stanford.EDU> gaia@portia.Stanford.EDU (fai to leung) writes: > >Just cursious, will listening to intervals instead of pitches enhances >a "grasp" of music context? Or vice versa? I don't have absolute pitch and >am interested to know the other side of the story. Or is this a totally >different issue? First I would want to clear up the definition of "absolute pitch". It is not always a synonym for "perfect pitch" -- the latter often implies the ability to recognize any pitch out of context; the former often implies an exceptional ability to name new pitches once a reference pitch is given. I will assume, though, that you mean them to be synonymous here. Not all people with absolute (perfect) pitch hear musical contexts in the same way -- as a matter of fact, there is often a great deal of variation, depending on the training (or lack thereof) of the individual. I knew a woman musician with pitch who could not recognize chords or chord functions, but she could ALWAYS tell you what notes were in the chords! It is somehow a matter of focus. I have perfect pitch as well, but I was trained early on to hear harmonies as more than collections of individually identifiable pitches, so I can focus on the pitch aspect or the interval aspect -- but I don't feel that these two possibilities are all there is to "musical context". I don't believe that it is at all essential to have pitch in order to understand musical context...though it is often nice to know WHICH remote key Mahler has moved to in the midst of a 35 minute movement. If forced to make a choice between hearing "pitches" or "intervals", assuming such a division could be made, I would always choose to hear intervals. There is much, much more music that (it seems to me) expects the listener to hear intervallic relations than there is that deals with pitches in isolation...and that first catagory includes all the serial (12-tone) music I know as well. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Douglas Scott doug@dept.csci.unt.edu
ladasky@codon4.berkeley.edu (John Ladasky;1021 Solano No. 2;528-8666) (11/30/89)
In article <25742AAA.56CC@rpi.edu> mketch@pawl.rpi.edu (Michael D. Ketchen) writes: >Actually, perfect pitch can be a hindrance. I have a friend here at school >with perfect pitch, and when he hears a recording in our Music Analysis class >that's in a different key than the score he's trying to follow along with, he >can't do it. (Or at least it takes a lot of work.) He als has a lot of The solution, of course, is to cultivate BOTH ways of listening, not just one. I don't think that a sense of absolute pitch is in any way a hin- drance, as long as you don't lose your motivation to also cultivate relative- pitch listening. >I also have a cousin who is a concert pianist, and if she hears a piece she >knows in a different key than she knows it in, she has to leave or it will >drive her crazy. Actually, this is really interesting. I just finished a piano quintet this month and noticed that I had accidentally written a low B into the cello part. So I transposed the sequence of the piece up a half-step and played it back. You have no idea how different it sounded! I had gotten so accustomed to listening into the piece in one key that, when I transposed it, I seemed to rediscover all of the voice leading and chord changes. T CROSS POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS POLICE LINE DO NOT CR _______________________________________________________________________________ "Do unto others as you would like - John J. Ladasky ("ii") to do unto them. " Richard Bach (ladasky@enzyme.berkeley.edu)
dts@quad.uucp (David T. Sandberg) (11/30/89)
In article <25742AAA.56CC@rpi.edu> mketch@pawl.rpi.edu (Michael D. Ketchen) writes: >Actually, perfect pitch can be a hindrance. I have a friend here at school >with perfect pitch, and when he hears a recording in our Music Analysis class >that's in a different key than the score he's trying to follow along with, he >can't do it. (Or at least it takes a lot of work.) I've heard other stories to that effect as well, and I don't expect to really suffer from it's absence. I just didn't want to come off as _completely_ discounting the usefulness of perfect pitch, since some people might be offended by such a blunt statement. Is there anyone here who does have perfect pitch as well as good relative pitch, and who can testify as to whether he/she can "shut one or the other off", i.e., ignore his/her absolute pitch in favor of being in tuneful harmony with someone/something else, or visa versa? -- David Sandberg dts@quad.uucp or ..uunet!rosevax!sialis!quad!dts
dave@motto.UUCP (David Brown) (12/01/89)
In article <357@quad.uucp> dts@quad.uucp (David T. Sandberg) writes: [...] >However, if someone knows good techniques for practicing absolute pitch >identification, I'm not adverse to trying them. Perfect pitch certainly >wouldn't be a great hindrance. ;') > Although I don't have perfect pitch, I can often come very close when asked to identify a note or to sing a note, even without a reference pitch. I think it began when I heard a difference between the tone of black notes and white notes being played on a piano. From there it developed until I could usually recognize which notes were being played. Even now, if I'm having trouble identifying a note, or finding a pitch, I imagine it played on a piano (I play piano myself). That seems to help. My brother plays trumpet. He has about the same degree of pitch sense as I do. I asked him about it once, and it seems that he also finds it easier if the note is being played on a trumpet, or if he imagines a trumpet playing. For pitch sense seems to be a matter of experience or conditioning. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- | David C. Brown | uunet!mnetor!motto!dave | | Motorola Canada, Ltd. | 416-499-1441 ext 3708 | | Communications Division | Disclaimer: Motorola is a very big company | -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
scott@bbxsda.UUCP (Scott Amspoker) (12/01/89)
In article <1989Nov30.014942.3772@agate.berkeley.edu> ladasky@codon4.berkeley.edu.UUCP (John Ladasky) writes: > Actually, this is really interesting. I just finished a piano quintet >this month and noticed that I had accidentally written a low B into the cello >part. So I transposed the sequence of the piece up a half-step and played it >back. You have no idea how different it sounded! I had gotten so accustomed >to listening into the piece in one key that, when I transposed it, I seemed >to rediscover all of the voice leading and chord changes. This is something I wonder about from time to time. Sometimes the band I play in will have to transpose a song for vocals. I found that transposing a mere whole step can sometimes *ruin* a song. It just feels different. Also, why is it that keys requiring a lot of black keys on the piano sound "richer"? Sometimes I think it's psychological since I *know* I'm hitting a high ratio of black keys to white keys, but I've heard other musicians acknowledge it also. -- Scott Amspoker Basis International, Albuquerque, NM (505) 345-5232 unmvax.cs.unm.edu!bbx!bbxsda!scott
jv@mh.nl (Johan Vromans) (12/01/89)
In article <1989Nov30.014942.3772@agate.berkeley.edu> ladasky@codon4.berkeley.edu (John Ladasky;1021 Solano No. 2;528-8666) writes: > I just finished a piano quintet > this month and noticed that I had accidentally written a low B into the cello > part. So I transposed the sequence of the piece up a half-step and played it > back. You have no idea how different it sounded! Actually, this is really interesting. When a group of people would hear the untransposed piece, and another group heard the transposed piece, would they experience it as differently? Certainly, those who have perfect pitch could tell that the key was different. But how about the musical experience? Just wondering. Johan -- Johan Vromans jv@mh.nl via internet backbones Multihouse Automatisering bv uucp: ..!{uunet,hp4nl}!mh.nl!jv Doesburgweg 7, 2803 PL Gouda, The Netherlands phone/fax: +31 1820 62944/62500 ------------------------ "Arms are made for hugging" -------------------------
briang@bari.Sun.COM (Brian Gordon) (12/01/89)
In article <389@bbxsda.UUCP> scott@bbxsda.UUCP (Scott Amspoker) writes: >In article <1989Nov30.014942.3772@agate.berkeley.edu> ladasky@codon4.berkeley.edu.UUCP (John Ladasky) writes: >> Actually, this is really interesting. I just finished a piano quintet >>this month and noticed that I had accidentally written a low B into the cello >>part. So I transposed the sequence of the piece up a half-step and played it >>back. You have no idea how different it sounded! I had gotten so accustomed >>to listening into the piece in one key that, when I transposed it, I seemed >>to rediscover all of the voice leading and chord changes. > >This is something I wonder about from time to time. Sometimes the band >I play in will have to transpose a song for vocals. I found that >transposing a mere whole step can sometimes *ruin* a song. It just >feels different. Also, why is it that keys requiring a lot of >black keys on the piano sound "richer"? Sometimes I think it's >psychological since I *know* I'm hitting a high ratio of black keys >to white keys, but I've heard other musicians acknowledge it also. Welcome to the world of the "tempered scale". Naively, it is an attempt to build a fixed-tuned instrument, like a piano, that is "equally out of tune in all keys". In "the old days", an interval of a fifth was exacty the right ratio (which has been pretty well maintained), as was a third (which has not). Unfortunately, that meant that a piano (for example) that played perfectly in C was completely useless in E. The "tempered scale" was a solution to that problem. We moderns (over the last few hundred years) have become used to the deliberate mistunings of important intervals in common keys as "right", but really notice the difference in intervals in less common keys -- the ratio of a sixth in the key of C is really quite different that the ratio for that interval in C# on a piano. A common perception is that the sharp keys are "brighter" and the flat keys are "mellower". My interest is barbershop harmony, which only works when the intervals are "correct", hence can not be accompanied. It is fascinating watching a trained musician have to "unlearn" the tempered scale to make it work. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Brian G. Gordon briang@Corp.Sun.COM (if you trust exotic mailers) | | ...!sun!briangordon (if you route it yourself) | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
scott@bbxsda.UUCP (Scott Amspoker) (12/01/89)
In article <128650@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> briang@sun.UUCP (Brian Gordon) writes: >We moderns (over the last few hundred years) have become used to the >deliberate mistunings of important intervals in common keys as "right", but >really notice the difference in intervals in less common keys -- the ratio of >a sixth in the key of C is really quite different that the ratio for that >interval in C# on a piano. A common perception is that the sharp keys are >"brighter" and the flat keys are "mellower". I thought a piano was equal-tempered. So a sixth was always the same regardless of what key you were in. (Your explanation makes a lot of sense though). -- Scott Amspoker Basis International, Albuquerque, NM (505) 345-5232 unmvax.cs.unm.edu!bbx!bbxsda!scott
dts@quad.uucp (David T. Sandberg) (12/01/89)
>In article <389@bbxsda.UUCP> scott@bbxsda.UUCP (Scott Amspoker) writes: >>This is something I wonder about from time to time. Sometimes the band >>I play in will have to transpose a song for vocals. I found that >>transposing a mere whole step can sometimes *ruin* a song. It just You bet. I had the exact same experience when I was on tour, to the extent that I finally decided I'd rather hear the most difficult parts of the vocal altered, rather than drop the key. In article <128650@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> briang@sun.UUCP (Brian Gordon) writes: >Welcome to the world of the "tempered scale". Naively, it is an attempt to >build a fixed-tuned instrument, like a piano, that is "equally out of tune in >all keys". I often think of it as a compromise tuning. ;') Heh. Now, trying to convince a guitar to be well-tempered is a nearly impossible task, in my experience - I've tried for over a decade with umpteen guitars, without success. Unfortunately I'm rather overly sensitive to out-of-tuneness... Someone else asked if people lacking perfect pitch were less sensitive to changing the key of a song. I guess I've already given my answer, but let me add that, when I write a song and then consider a key change, I nearly always go back to the original key, 'cause I don't like the difference in the sound of the piece. And I don't even come close to having perfect pitch. I guess this is a good example of the effects of the tempered scale, although I hadn't made a conscious analysis of it until now. -- David Sandberg dts@quad.uucp or ..uunet!rosevax!sialis!quad!dts
marvit@hplpm.hpl.hp.com (Peter Marvit) (12/01/89)
> Is there anyone out there with "absolute tempo"? In other words, if the > song calls for a tempo of 120 beats/minute can such a person *acurately* do > that without the assistance of a metronome? Interesting, no? While I don't know of proven existance of "absolute tempo" per se, many studies have shown that trainined musicians can keep a tempo steady +-5msec! -Peter "Doing such a study now" Marvit HP Labs and U.C. Berkeley "Hello, David L. Hopefully Wessel will be kind to us for the finals"
cello@jessica.Stanford.EDU (Sean Varah) (12/02/89)
I'd like to offer an analogy regarding the argument between relative
and absolute pitch. I'm color blind (ie: I lack the abilitly to
distinguish certain colors from others). The way I estimate what
some colors are is by their shading, for example, green is a darker
shade than brown, for example. I can see colors quite well, however,
since I developed a good sense of shading, as well as a good ability
to analize the color content of what I see.
I have perfect pitch, and in a way this is like seeing all colors.
Since music is a large part of my life its important for me to work
on my ear as an analytical tool, and thus seeing the shades of sound
with good relative pitch is an essential part of hearing.
There is no need to "turn one or the other off". You hear all the
sound and pitches all the time, and its a natural function of your
brain to hear different things in different ways, so when its necessary,
you hear the relative context of notes, or their exact pitch location.
When developed properly, perfect pitch is just another analytical
device you use in the perception of music.
Sean Varah
******************************************************************************
"It's just full of blatant tonality"
Sean Varah, AIR Stanford, cello@jessica.stanford.edu, (415) 723-5343
******************************************************************************dts@quad.uucp (David T. Sandberg) (12/02/89)
In article <74@motto.UUCP> dave@motto.UUCP (David Brown) writes: :if I'm having trouble identifying a note, or finding a pitch, I imagine :it played on a piano (I play piano myself). That seems to help. : :My brother plays trumpet. He has about the same degree of pitch sense :as I do. I asked him about it once, and it seems that he also finds it :easier if the note is being played on a trumpet... Interesting. My main instrument is guitar, so I just imagined an E on guitar and then checked with my synthesizer. I was within a half step. Maybe there's something to this idea. However, it's going to be difficult for me to practice and attempt to confirm this, since once I've tried and checked one pitch, then I instantly and instinctively identify all subsequent pitches by relation to the preceding pitches. I have to stay away from music for a long time to clear it out of my head enough to avoid using it as a reference. Heck, I just went over to the keyboard again, and it's still there, darn it... ;') Same with this song I was listening to about an hour ago. I just put it on again, and I had mentally strayed from the key only about a half step. Damned if I know what key it is, but it's still stuck in my head... Previously, I have usually been able to identify a note within a couple of half steps at least, but that's only because I know the lowest/highest notes I can sing. I just sang them and compared. Worked in a pinch. ;') In article <2698@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca> king@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca (Stephen King) writes: :I recently saw a magazine advertisement which claimed that perfect pitch :could be learned. I would like to improve my sense of pitch, yet am :skeptical of advertising claims and would like to find out if anyone has had :success with do-it-yourself pitch training before I part with my $85. My two cents: I wouldn't if I were you. -- David Sandberg dts@quad.uucp or ..uunet!rosevax!sialis!quad!dts
abrams@cs.columbia.edu (Steven Abrams) (12/03/89)
In article <362@quad.uucp> dts@quad.uucp (David T. Sandberg) writes:
Is there anyone here who does have perfect pitch as well as good
relative pitch, and who can testify as to whether he/she can "shut
one or the other off", i.e., ignore his/her absolute pitch in favor
of being in tuneful harmony with someone/something else, or visa
versa?
I do have both, and can't do it. However, the absolute pitch doesn't
stop me from being in "tuneful harmony" -- it has stopped my from
doing things like following a score, transposing on the fly, etc.
~~~Steve
--
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*Steven Abrams abrams@cs.columbia.edu
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#include <std/dumquote.h>
#include <std/disclaimer.h>lowj_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (John Alan Low) (12/04/89)
In article <2698@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca> king@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca (Stephen King) writes: >I recently saw a magazine advertisement which claimed that perfect pitch >could be learned. I would like to improve my sense of pitch, yet am >skeptical of advertising claims and would like to find out if anyone has had >success with do-it-yourself pitch training before I part with my $85. I improved my pitch with the following method: Every day when I came home from work, I would immediately sing a middle C, or my best try at one. Then I would play it on the piano, sing the correct note, then sort of "let it sink in" for a while. I would not listen to or play any music for this brief period. After about a year (I didn't say this would be quick), I was able to hit it within, say, an eighth of a tone. I think almost anyone can acquire perfect pitch by similar methods. After all, we can all look at a group of words and hear the sounds which they represent. Since pitch is a non-distinctive feature of English, the task of improving pitch is not as easy for native English speakers as it might be for speakers of tonal languages, but I believe that for most people, it is possible. Oh, and if I wasn't clear enough : IMHO, save your money. ----Travis Ich suche die Leidenschaft, die keine Leiden schafft.
elkies@osgood.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies) (12/04/89)
In article <389@bbxsda.UUCP> scott@bbxsda.UUCP (Scott Amspoker) writes: :In article <1989Nov30.014942.3772@agate.berkeley.edu> ladasky@codon4.berkeley.edu.UUCP (John Ladasky) writes: :> Actually, this is really interesting. I just finished a piano quintet :>this month and noticed that I had accidentally written a low B into the cello :>part. So I transposed the sequence of the piece up a half-step and played it :>back. You have no idea how different it sounded! I had gotten so accustomed :>to listening into the piece in one key that, when I transposed it, I seemed :>to rediscover all of the voice leading and chord changes. : :This is something I wonder about from time to time. Sometimes the band :I play in will have to transpose a song for vocals. I found that :transposing a mere whole step can sometimes *ruin* a song. It just :feels different. Also, why is it that keys requiring a lot of :black keys on the piano sound "richer"? Sometimes I think it's :psychological since I *know* I'm hitting a high ratio of black keys :to white keys, but I've heard other musicians acknowledge it also. I've read that many piano tuners intentionally deviate from equal temperament to favor the easier keys, making their basic intervals purer at the expense of the tonalities distant from C; this could have the effect of making a piece in something like G major sound "richer" in A-flat. I do not know whether this has been objectively tested; it may also be hard to separate objective discrepancies in tuning from the subjective response of the pianist to different keys (conditioned by past experience with music in those keys and the different technical problems posed by the transposition). Of course anything like a piano quintet involving string instruments may sound very different up a whole step, because the interaction with the instruments' resonances completely changes. --Noam D. Elkies (elkies@zariski.harvard.edu) Department of Mathematics, Harvard Univ.
dave@motto.UUCP (David Brown) (12/04/89)
In article <ABRAMS.89Nov27235506@cs.columbia.edu> abrams@cs.UUCP writes: >I'd lightly humm the starting note, and the entire choir would start >off a capella, on pitch, without an audible starting note on the piano >or a pitch pipe :-) I was once part of a massed choir at a summer music camp. For the final concert we sang an a capella number. At the last rehearsal the conductor told us he would not be giving us a starting pitch. Instead we were to "pull it out of the air". Sure enough, when the time came, he gave us a moment to collect our thoughts and then brought us in. Amazingly, it worked! I have to admire his nerve, but I don't know if I would want to try it myself. Since then I've never anyone else do it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- | David C. Brown | uunet!mnetor!motto!dave | | Motorola Canada, Ltd. | 416-499-1441 ext 3708 | | Communications Division | Disclaimer: Motorola is a very big company | -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
andrew@computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk (Andrew Jones) (12/04/89)
In article <25742AAA.56CC@rpi.edu> mketch@pawl.rpi.edu (Michael D. Ketchen) writes: >Actually, perfect pitch can be a hindrance ... Well, I've somehow acquired perfect pitch. I have found it a problem when asked to play a piano that's been tuned a semitone or two flat. Until I was about 17 I couldn't play such a piano at all, but I suddenly found I was able to temporarily suspend my "perfect" pitch!! It returns as soon as I stop playing. Such pianos normally sound horrible, of course, because they were generally detuned because they were in such a bad state that the tuner was afraid to bring them up to tune properly. I really don't know how this affects my perception of music - when I'm listening to music I normally don't consciously think of its key, but more of the characteristics those without perfect pitch would be able to perceive equally well. I am always _aware_ of what key it's in, of course. However, I certainly find discussions of temperament interesting because most people seem to find the intonation of a professional violinist, say, much more acceptable than what can be obtained from a piano. When I listen to recordings of violinists, I am rarely satisfied with their intonation. Could it be that I have an "equal-tempered" perfect pitch? Actually, I think that the truth is more likely to be that players of such instruments tend to err, regardless of what temperament we're talking about. It really is very difficult to play in tune. I speak as an ex-oboist who used to irritate himself enormously with his playing! I must say, that I don't regard perfect pitch, or lack thereof, as any measure of musicianship. As for how to learn pitch, I haven't got any suggestions at all. My experience was that it "just happened", and Daddy discovered it when I was about 5 years old. Incidentally, perfect pitch is useful if you don't have a rev. counter in your car! Andrew Jones University of Wales College of Cardiff Department of Computing Mathematics Mathematics Institute Senghennydd Road Cardiff CF2 4AG UK
doug@ntvax.uucp (Douglas Scott) (12/05/89)
In article <362@quad.uucp> dts@quad.uucp (David T. Sandberg) writes: >Is there anyone here who does have perfect pitch as well as good >relative pitch, and who can testify as to whether he/she can "shut >one or the other off", i.e., ignore his/her absolute pitch in favor >of being in tuneful harmony with someone/something else, or visa >versa? In the course of my music training it became essential for me to be able to hear totally (or almost so) in one mode or the other. Singing in choirs can be a real drag for someone who is unable to adapt to the tuning of the group (and unpleasant for the choir too.) I think the split ability started for me when I first became a musician, because I was first a clarinetist, and of course the clarinet is a Bb instrument. So, my "C" was a concert "Bb". As I learned a bit of piano and took music theory and eartraining classes, I had to be able to switch back and forth - and transposing all the time is the pits. I'm sure that I am not alone...it's just that some people with perfect pitch take actual pride in their inability to adapt. In my circumstances it seemed the natural thing to do. With regard to learning pitch: I think it is difficult to prove whether or not the ability was "there all the time" or not. Perhaps it is very possible to learn. I did not know that I had any ability until I entered high school, and even then my skills were shaky for a couple of years until the music training that I had sharpened my technique. I dont know if I "learned" it or just disciplined it. ________________________________________________________ Douglas Scott doug@dept.csci.unt.edu
abrams@cs.columbia.edu (Steven Abrams) (12/05/89)
In article <75@motto.UUCP> dave@motto.UUCP (David Brown) writes:
I was once part of a massed choir at a summer music camp. For the final
concert we sang an a capella number. At the last rehearsal the conductor
told us he would not be giving us a starting pitch. Instead we were to
"pull it out of the air". Sure enough, when the time came, he gave us
a moment to collect our thoughts and then brought us in. Amazingly, it
worked!
This sounds to me like one of those cases of tone-memory that people
have been talking about. I remember a show that I directed where one
girl had to start off a song by herself. She and I spent so much time
going over how I was going to cue her and what the starting note was
going to be that she no longer needed the faint tap on the piano that
I was giving her. She did *not* have perfect pitch, but for the
duration of rehearsals and performances, she remembered that pitch.
I think that's the difference between naturally having perfect pitch
and being musical to have tonal memory -- one is an inate ability, the
other is something that can be learned for some period of time.
~~~Steve
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#include <std/dumquote.h>
#include <std/disclaimer.h>scott@bbxsda.UUCP (Scott Amspoker) (12/06/89)
In article <abrams.89Dec5012741@cs.columbia.edu> abrams@cs.columbia.edu (Steven Abrams) writes: >This sounds to me like one of those cases of tone-memory that people >have been talking about. I remember a show that I directed where one >girl had to start off a song by herself. She and I spent so much time >going over how I was going to cue her and what the starting note was >going to be that she no longer needed the faint tap on the piano that >I was giving her. She did *not* have perfect pitch, but for the >duration of rehearsals and performances, she remembered that pitch. I think a lot of it also has to do with repeated rehersals of the same songs in the same sequence. One starts to remember the change in key going from one song to the next and might not require a new reference pitch for each song. -- Scott Amspoker Basis International, Albuquerque, NM (505) 345-5232 unmvax.cs.unm.edu!bbx!bbxsda!scott
abrams@cs.columbia.edu (Steven Abrams) (12/07/89)
In article <1125@cf-cm.UUCP> andrew@computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk (Andrew Jones) writes:
[... Various discussions on Perfect Pitch ...]
Incidentally, perfect pitch is useful if you don't have a rev. counter
in your car!
This is getting off the track, but a friend of mine (who also has
perfect pitch) and I were working on a boat engine this summer, and
yes, it did come in handy to know exactly when the engine was at
proper idle. In fact, we helped a mechanic at our marina tune the
engines on a boat that had twin engines. One was on the boat, the
other was in the garage on a motor stand. We got them to within less
than 100 RPM of each other without a tachometer.
Who says you can't make money with musical skills?
~~~Steve
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#include <std/dumquote.h>
#include <std/disclaimer.h>king@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca (Stephen King) (12/07/89)
In article <abrams.89Dec7010946@cs.columbia.edu> abrams@cs.columbia.edu (Steven Abrams) writes: >In fact, we helped a mechanic at our marina tune the >engines on a boat that had twin engines. > >Who says you can't make money with musical skills? I have never heard anybody say this. Have you? Then again, if all you use your musical skills for is tuning outboard motors you may not make a heck of a lot of money. I know Spike Jones used to use all sorts of non-musical devices in his music but I don't think he ever used outboard motors. Ah, this is comp.music, OK, does anyone have an algorithm for generating a rap beat on a Dataproducts 'Chain-Train' line printer? Also, I have made a set of percussive instruments out of an old RP06 disc pack, if anyone's interested.
dts@quad.uucp (David T. Sandberg) (12/09/89)
In article <2726@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca> king@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca (Stephen King) writes: >In article <abrams.89Dec7010946@cs.columbia.edu> abrams@cs.columbia.edu (Steven Abrams) writes: >>In fact, we helped a mechanic at our marina tune the >>engines on a boat that had twin engines. >> >>Who says you can't make money with musical skills? > >I have never heard anybody say this. Have you? I'll be glad to say it if no one else already has. "You can't make money with musical skills... well, okay, maybe you can make money, but not enough." ;') ;'( >Then again, if all you use your musical skills for is tuning outboard >motors you may not make a heck of a lot of money. Of course if you use your musical skills in music that isn't particularly commercial you won't make much money, either. -- David Sandberg dts@quad.uucp or ..uunet!rosevax!sialis!quad!dts "Ghosts in the Machine!"
abrams@cs.columbia.edu (Steven Abrams) (12/12/89)
In article <380@quad.uucp> dts@quad.uucp (David T. Sandberg) writes: >In article <2726@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca> king@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca (Stephen King) writes: >>Then again, if all you use your musical skills for is tuning outboard >>motors you may not make a heck of a lot of money. > Of course if you use your musical skills in music that isn't >particularly commercial you won't make much money, either. THIS was my point. Personally, I think I'd rather tune outboard motors than make particularly commercial music. ~~~Steve -- /************************************************* * *Steven Abrams abrams@cs.columbia.edu * **************************************************/ #include <std/dumquote.h> #include <std/disclaimer.h>