harlan@bbn.com (Harlan Feinstein) (12/05/89)
Someone claimed that vibrato to a limited extent was possible on the piano, and I was wondering if anyone could clue me in to how this is done. --Harlan
ken@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Ken Johnson) (12/05/89)
From comp.music >Someone claimed that vibrato to a limited extent was possible on the piano, >and I was wondering if anyone could clue me in to how this is done. Best Ways to get a Vibrato Effect on a Piano 1. Get a friend to open and shut the lid. 2. Stand audience outside house. Open annd shut doors and windows. 3. Mount piano on giant vibrator. -- Ken Johnson, AI Applications Institute, 80 South Bridge, Edinburgh EH1 1HN E-mail ken@aiai.ed.ac.uk, phone 031-225 4464 extension 212 `I have read your .signature, Mr Johnson, and it's been truncated to three
schouten@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu (12/07/89)
>Best Ways to get a Vibrato Effect on a Piano >1. Get a friend to open and shut the lid. >2. Stand audience outside house. Open annd shut doors and windows. >3. Mount piano on giant vibrator. You forgot one of the most important ones, mount piano on spinning stage. (I believe this is roughly how some older electric (electronic ?) organs used to do it, with a spinning speaker, had some odd name like `Leslie' or something)
alves@aludra.usc.edu (William Alves) (12/08/89)
[sorry, I meant to cross-post this earlier:] In article <1432@skye.ed.ac.uk> ken@aiai.UUCP (Ken Johnson) writes: > >Best Ways to get a Vibrato Effect on a Piano > >1. Get a friend to open and shut the lid. >2. Stand audience outside house. Open annd shut doors and windows. >3. Mount piano on giant vibrator. > I'm afraid these methods will result only in TREMOLO, not vibrato. That is, you are modulating the loudness, not the pitch. My suggestion is to vibrate the piano alternating toward and away from the audience. If done fast enough over enough of a distance, the doppler effect will give you vibrato. 8-) Bill Alves USC School of Music / Center for Scholarly Technology
mikes@lakesys.lakesys.com (Mike Shawaluk) (12/08/89)
In article <6912@merlin.usc.edu> alves@aludra.usc.edu (Bill Alves) writes: >In article <1432@skye.ed.ac.uk> ken@aiai.UUCP (Ken Johnson) writes: >>Best Ways to get a Vibrato Effect on a Piano >> >>1. Get a friend to open and shut the lid. >>2. Stand audience outside house. Open annd shut doors and windows. >>3. Mount piano on giant vibrator. >> >I'm afraid these methods will result only in TREMOLO, not vibrato. That is, >you are modulating the loudness, not the pitch. My suggestion is to vibrate >the piano alternating toward and away from the audience. If done fast enough >over enough of a distance, the doppler effect will give you vibrato. 8-) Okay, I see we're all having great fun with the original poster's question. However, since I recently attended a clavicord recital, I found this concept at least interesting, since one of the things that one of the performers at that event said in his introduction was that the clavichord was capable of vibrato. And, in fact, several of the selections that were played that evening featured this effect. This effect is relatively easy to accomplish on a clavichord, since the keys are directly connected to the hammers, with no escapement, so that holding a key down will keep it pressed against its strings. Thus, changing the pressure on a key while it is held down will produce a small amount of vibrato, although the note will be at a subdued volume, because the contact with the hammer will tend to dampen it a bit. Since a piano has these annoying escapements (is that what they are called?), it's not possible to get vibrato the way a clavicord does it, but surely there is some (hopefully serious) way to do this. Does reaching inside and pressing/wiggling the strings while one is playing count? (assuming, of course, that the type of piano being played will allow this type of manipulation). Actually, I'm able to easily get vibrato when I play one of my "piano"s, which is an Ensoniq Mirage with the appropriate sample diskette. All I have to do is turn the mod wheel. :-) :-) :-) (please, this is *not* an attempt to start another flame war on the validity [or lack thereof] of sampled vs. "real" instruments, etc.) - Mike -- - Mike Shawaluk "Rarely have we seen a mailer -> DOMAIN: mikes@lakesys.lakesys.com fail which has thoroughly -> UUCP: ...!uunet!marque!lakesys!mikes followed these paths." -> BITNET: 7117SHAWALUK@MUCSD
jones@optilink.UUCP (Marvin Jones) (12/09/89)
> >Best Ways to get a Vibrato Effect on a Piano > > If the piano is miked, and somewhat isolated from the listener (via curtains, or baffle panels) then the signal can be run through an analog or digital delay line whose delay time is being modulated by a sine wave. The resulting signal can then be amplified, and will be a piano sound with vibrato. Also, with the proliferation of sampling synthesizers these days, there are a number of excellent piano sounds available for the better machines. It should be an easy matter to add vibrato to these sounds on a good programmable synthesizer. Regards, -- Marvin Jones uunet: {pyramid, tekbspa}!optilink!jones Optilink Corp. bell-net: 707-795-9444 X 206 Petaluma, CA CI$: 71320,3637
harlan@bbn.com (Harlan Feinstein) (12/10/89)
In article <2746@optilink.UUCP> jones@optilink.UUCP (Marvin Jones) writes: >Also, with the proliferation of sampling synthesizers these days, there are a >number of excellent piano sounds available for the better machines. It should >be an easy matter to add vibrato to these sounds on a good programmable >synthesizer. What I'm seeking is not an answer to how to get a piano vibrato _sound_, but rather a sincere answer to how to do this without electronics. Someone told me that it was possible. Some of the replies were amusing, but unfortunately I got no serious answer. --Harlan hfeinstein@wash-vax.bbn.com
rreid@esquire.UUCP ( r l reid ) (12/13/89)
In article <49451@bbn.COM> harlan@labs-n.bbn.com (Harlan Feinstein) writes: > >What I'm seeking is not an answer to how to get a piano vibrato _sound_, >but rather a sincere answer to how to do this without electronics. Someone >told me that it was possible. Some of the replies were amusing, >but unfortunately I got no serious answer. You get no serious answers because there is no serious answer. I assume you mean "an unmodified, unprocessed piano". The strings are fixed. You can damp them, you can change your touch, you can prevent them being damped after being played. There's no way to either stretch the string or move the end points of the vibrating part. A completely impractical answer would be to open the lid, put a tuning wrench on every peg, and have a group of people grab all the right wrenches at the right moments, apply miniscule and coordinated tweeks, and then return the string to proper pitch. Beyond that, you're talking about one hell of a long whammy bar and major modification. It could be an interesting modification, but I suspect you'd ruin a lot of frames on your way to the first working model. -- Ro rreid@esquire.dpw.com {phri|cucard}!hombre!cmcl2!esquire!rreid rlr@woof.columbia.edu
rdh@portia.Stanford.EDU (Roland Hutchinson) (12/13/89)
In article <49451@bbn.COM> harlan@labs-n.bbn.com (Harlan Feinstein) writes: > >What I'm seeking is not an answer to how to get a piano vibrato _sound_, >but rather a sincere answer to how to do this without electronics. Someone >told me that it was possible. Could it be that whoever suggested vibrato was possible on the piano had been confused by a faulty translation from German into English somewhere along the line? The word Klavier often meant "Clavichord" in 18th-century German; in modern German it means "Piano" (or specifically "Upright Piano"; a grand is a Fluegel). A kind of vibrato (called Bebung) is a normal part of clavichord technique. Roland Hutchinson Department of Music Montclair State College Upper Montclair, NJ 07043 INTERNET: r.rdh@macbeth.stanford.edu BITNET: r.rdh%macbeth.stanford.edu@stanford (That's right. I teach in New Jersey and read email in California. Isn't science wonderful?)
pmy@jeeves.acc.Virginia.EDU (Pete Yadlowsky) (12/14/89)
In article <1676@esquire.UUCP> rreid@esquire.UUCP ( r l reid ) writes: >In article <49451@bbn.COM> harlan@labs-n.bbn.com (Harlan Feinstein) writes: >>What I'm seeking is not an answer to how to get a piano vibrato _sound_, >>but rather a sincere answer to how to do this without electronics. Someone >>told me that it was possible. Some of the replies were amusing, >>but unfortunately I got no serious answer. >You get no serious answers because there is no serious answer. >I assume you mean "an unmodified, unprocessed piano". The strings are fixed. >You can damp them, you can change your touch, you can prevent them >being damped after being played. There's no way to either >stretch the string or move the end points of the vibrating part. How about some sort of a whammy bar? A power-assisted fourth pedal, and safety equipment for the performer. OK, OK...wasting bandwidth... f i l l e r Peter M. Yadlowsky | "Pay no attention to that man Academic Computing Center | behind the curtain!" University of Virginia | pmy@Virginia.EDU |
mjs@hpfcso.HP.COM (Marc Sabatella) (12/14/89)
>What I'm seeking is not an answer to how to get a piano vibrato _sound_, >but rather a sincere answer to how to do this without electronics. Someone >told me that it was possible. Some of the replies were amusing, >but unfortunately I got no serious answer. A serious, but probably flawed answer: If, while holding a key down, you move your hand side to side, on most pianos this will cause the hammer, still suspended over the string, to move side to side as well. Theoretically the air column reflected off the moving hammer could cause the string to modulate slightly. I doubt this would produce a noticeable effect; I know *I* don't notice it on *my* piano. Marc
brad@hpausla.aso.hp.com (Brad Morford) (12/15/89)
I have not read all the responses so I don't know if this has already been said or if it's way out in "right-field" somewhere.... I would attempt to do it the same as you get vibrato on a triangle or a vibraphone. On a triangle you strike the triangle then wave your hand over it, it really produces a nice effect. I would imagine that if you could wave your hand over the piano strings it wold produce the same effect. I realize this is not practical. On a vibraphone there is a small "fan" at the bottom of each pipe. I think if you put a simlar type of fan over the piano strings you would again get the same effect. regards, brad
harlan@bbn.com (Harlan Feinstein) (12/18/89)
In article <1676@esquire.UUCP> rreid@esquire.UUCP ( r l reid ) writes: >Beyond that, you're talking about one hell of a long whammy bar >and major modification. It could be an interesting modification, >but I suspect you'd ruin a lot of frames on your way to the >first working model. I like the idea of a whammy bar... :-) since I posted my followup message I've gotten about a dozen mail messages, so thanks very much to all of you. No-one believes that you can do it, including me, so unless I can find out who told me it was possible, we'll define it as impossible. Thanks again. --Harlan
gwhiz@avantgarde.Sun.COM (Mike Williams) (12/20/89)
One technique I've used is to press a smooth drinking glass against the strings before striking the keys. Strike, then slide the glass. A similar technique is used in George Crumb's music. Somewhat more germaine to the newsgroup, using samplers one can add vibrato with LFO/Rand generators (even in real time if your hardware is up to it !). Also, a ring modulator can be set to give beat frequencies in real time, as well as other tuneable feedback techniques. Mike