tom@iconsys.UUCP (Tom Kimpton) (01/13/90)
I have followed with interest the discussion on "well tempered"ness
of western music (instruments) and I was wondering if any electronic
music instruments have options to play "perfect" scales. It would
seem to me that it would be a simple thing to have a button that changes
the perfect temperement so that you could play any key "perfectly".
Is there anything like this out there?
--
Tom Kimpton UUCP: {uunet,caeco,nrc-ut}!iconsys!tom
Software Engineer INTERNET: tom@iconsys.uu.net
Icon International, Inc. BITNET: icon%byuadam.bitnet (multi-user acct)
Orem, Utah 84058 PHONE: (801) 225-6888jv@mh.nl (Johan Vromans) (01/14/90)
In article <434@iconsys.UUCP> tom@iconsys.UUCP (Tom Kimpton) writes: > I have followed with interest the discussion on "well tempered"ness > of western music (instruments) and I was wondering if any electronic > music instruments have options to play "perfect" scales. Yes, modern synthesizers can be made to play in perfect scales. Which brings me to a question which has been in my mind for long: If a piece is playes in a perfect scale, say c major, and is then played in perfect scale d major, does it sound different? Yes, it will sound higher. But does it feel different? Alternative question: if a piece in (tempered) c-major sounds (feels) different when played in d-major, it this because of the minor differences in pitches due to the tempered scale? Johan -- Johan Vromans jv@mh.nl via internet backbones Multihouse Automatisering bv uucp: ..!{uunet,hp4nl}!mh.nl!jv Doesburgweg 7, 2803 PL Gouda, The Netherlands phone/fax: +31 1820 62944/62500 ------------------------ "Arms are made for hugging" -------------------------
KRW1%LEHIGH.BITNET@IBM1.CC.Lehigh.EDU (01/15/90)
>Alternative question: if a piece in (tempered) c-major sounds (feels) >different when played in d-major, it this because of the minor >differences in pitches due to the tempered scale? An equally tempered scale has no distinct reference points - every interval is the same ratio in any key. The "mood" of a key changes subjectively in the same way a color scheme might as you shift from, say, blue toward green. The same should be true of other temperaments (assuming you retune in each key). This is if everything is perfect. There are a couple of side issues which muddy things a bit. Pianos, for example, generally aren't tuned to perfect even temperament - the ratios change slightly from low to high according to the tuner's preference, but this may not be noticeable on an electronic instrument using computed scales. There is also the pitch vs. frequency effect where a the apparent frequency depends on volume (and the related pitch changes due to greater string deformation) - again, dependent on the actual sound producing mechanism. And then, the ratios in the harmonic series may still change dramatically from step to step for other physical reasons - dead strings, resonance, etc. This can all affect the "mood".
alves@nunki.usc.edu (William Alves) (01/17/90)
In article <JV.90Jan13223141@mhres.mh.nl> jv@mh.nl (Johan Vromans) writes: >In article <434@iconsys.UUCP> tom@iconsys.UUCP (Tom Kimpton) writes: >> I was wondering if any electronic >> music instruments have options to play "perfect" scales. >Yes, modern synthesizers can be made to play in perfect scales. >Which brings me to a question which has been in my mind for long: >If a piece is playes in a perfect scale, say c major, and is then >played in perfect scale d major, does it sound different? Yes, it will >sound higher. But does it feel different? >Alternative question: if a piece in (tempered) c-major sounds (feels) >different when played in d-major, it this because of the minor >differences in pitches due to the tempered scale? First of all, what is a "perfect" scale? Tuning systems since ancient times have faced two competing goals: to have small, whole number ratios in the commonly used intervals to increase the consonance, and to be able to play in more than one key center. They are not mutually compatible; one or the other has to be compromised. For example, to take your c/d major question: let's say the A is tuned to a frequency exactly 3/2 times D (a "perfect" or Pythagorean fifth) to aid in consonance in the tonic triad of D. Then let's assume that D is 3/2 above G (for the G triad), and that G is 3/2 above C (for the C triad in C major). This would make the D 9/8 from C and the A 27/16 from C. Now 27/16 isn't exactly a low number ratio, which may be okay if you're playing in D, but in C you'll probably want it to be 5/3 so that the A minor triad will be consonant. This is a simple example, but it demonstrates that tuning systems with small whole-number ratios ("just" intonation) do not lend themselves to modulation. Likewise, equal-temperament has much more dissonant sounding intervals. The history of tuning systems in Europe is entirely bound up in various solutions to this fundamental problem. The nature of the compromise at which you arrive has to do with the nature of your music. To Schoenberg, equal temperament is the "perfect" tuning system, because it makes all intervals equal. Personally, I prefer just systems (when they are practical) in my own music. Different keys in just systems have quite different sounds because a "minor sixth" for example, may actually be three or four different intervals de- pending on what key it is in. The same is true to more or less of a degree in all non-equal tuning systems. This could definitely have an effect on mood and compositional usage. As I have written before, I think supposed changes in "mood" when transposing in equal temperament are mostly due to changes in timbre in different registers of the instruments. Some electronic instruments which have tunable scales include: Yamaha DX-7II, TX802, TX81Z Ensoniq Mirage, EPS (with special software) Akai S-900, S-950, S-1000 (with a lot of work) Synclavier II and probably several others. (This was discussed in rec.music.synth a few weeks ago). Bill Alves USC School of Music / Center for Scholarly Technology
brownd@thor.acc.stolaf.edu (David H. Brown) (01/19/90)
In article <434@iconsys.UUCP> tom@iconsys.UUCP (Tom Kimpton) writes: > ... and I was wondering if any electronic >music instruments have options to play "perfect" scales. >Tom Kimpton UUCP: {uunet,caeco,nrc-ut}!iconsys!tom >Software Engineer INTERNET: tom@iconsys.uu.net >Icon International, Inc. BITNET: icon%byuadam.bitnet (multi-user acct) >Orem, Utah 84058 PHONE: (801) 225-6888 Gee, one of my favorite questions! Yes many electronic instruments have the ability to play in tunings other than equal-temperment. My own favorite it the Yamaha DX7-II which allows the pitch of every key to be defined independently, with a resolution of just over 1 cent (1024 steps to the octave, to be (im)precise). I would expect that the new Yamaha SY77 (no, nobody seems to know what the name means) to keep this feature. BTW, every key means every one of the 128 midi note numbers! You can do microtonal tunings to with any number of steps per octave (well, up to 128)! I've noticed that the Kurzweil ??1000 series does allow a few different tunings, but they keep the octaves pure and also force you to keep the same old twelve-steps-to-the-octave bit going. It is easier to program, though (especially if you _like_ having a moderately normal keyboard :-) ), and the tuning is specified as offsets in cents from Equal-Temperment. I'm sure there are others, but those are the two we have in the studio here (Yamaha DX7-II FD and Kurzweil K1000). St. Olaf College has very little to | M M | M M M | M M | M M M | M M | do with the things I talk about! | M M | M M M | M M | M M M | M M | | M M | M M M | M M | M M M | M M | Dave Brown: brownd@thor.acc.stolaf.edu | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | "I _like_ programming the DX-7!" |_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|