gtaylor@vme.heurikon.com (Gregory Taylor) (04/10/91)
In article <4124.27fb558b@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com> joelson@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com writes: >Perfect pitch is both good and bad... >bad - out-of-tune music in almost intolerable, it is difficult to > sing in an out of tune choir or play an out of tune piano as > I mentally have to translate each note. I never thought of this before, but I'll bet that those tuning systems that don't adhere carefully to equal temperment, or those systems which involve the use of close tuning to produce "beating" tones as a part of the effect [like, say, Bali] must truly be a torturous experience. Never thought of perfect pitch as a problem before :-) -- When I was a boy, my father drove us once/very fast along a road deep in a woodland./The leaves on the trees turned into mirrors/signaling with bright lights frantically./They said it was the end of the world and to go faster.
jsc@kingtut.MIT.EDU (Jin S Choi) (04/11/91)
In article <346@heurikon.heurikon.com>, gtaylor@vme.heurikon.com (Gregory Taylor) writes: |> In article <4124.27fb558b@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com> joelson@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com writes: |> >Perfect pitch is both good and bad... |> >bad - out-of-tune music in almost intolerable, it is difficult to |> > sing in an out of tune choir or play an out of tune piano as |> > I mentally have to translate each note. |> I never thought of this before, but I'll bet that those tuning systems |> that don't adhere carefully to equal temperment, or those systems which |> involve the use of close tuning to produce "beating" tones as a part of |> the effect [like, say, Bali] must truly be a torturous experience. |> Never thought of perfect pitch as a problem before :-) |> Not really. Out of tune music is only intolerable when you either know the piece or have to play it. Since you don't know what anything else is supposed to sound like, you hear other stuff as relative-pitch people do. So, Bali music might be a torturous experience, but not because one has perfect pitch. Temperment has little to do with perfect pitch, by the way. -- Jin Choi jsc@athena.mit.edu 617-232-3257
rreid@DPW.COM (r l reid ) (04/11/91)
In article <346@heurikon.heurikon.com> gtaylor@vme.heurikon.com (Gregory Taylor) writes: >I never thought of this before, but I'll bet that those tuning systems >that don't adhere carefully to equal temperment, or those systems which >involve the use of close tuning to produce "beating" tones as a part of >the effect [like, say, Bali] must truly be a torturous experience. This is what I haven't been understanding about the whole concept - if "perfect pitch" is inborn, does this imply that 12-to-the-8ve, equal temperament is somehow wired into the brain by the Creator? The implication (that G-d was born after the invention of the piano!) is staggering. The serious question to those who understand perfect pitch by virtue of having it: if I play you a scale made with the following intervals, where the 1/1 is at a frequency that exactly matches an eq12 "E": 1/1 8/7 3/2 10/7 5/3 12/7 I expect you'd call my 1/1 an E. But what would your reaction be to the 3/2? It's "about B", but not exactly (or more exactly, depending on your reference). Do you just hear B, or do you hear a mockery of B-ness? And then WHAT do you do when hit with the 12/7 and 5/3, which are both "sixths" above the "E", but neither one is anywhere near to an eq12 C#. Despite the humorous tone, I'm taking, I'm quite serious and benign in asking - does perfect pitch preclude enjoyment of Dean Drummond and Lou Harrison pieces? Ro
carroll@ssc-vax (Jeff Carroll) (04/12/91)
In article <3177@esquire.dpw.com> rreid@esquire.UUCP (r l reid ) writes: > >This is what I haven't been understanding about the whole concept - >if "perfect pitch" is inborn, does this imply that 12-to-the-8ve, >equal temperament is somehow wired into the brain by the Creator? My personal opinion (based on my own experience, and having known others with perfect pitch) is that the skill is learned, rather than inborn. I assert that none of the people who claim to have had perfect pitch from birth have evidence to support their contention that the skill was inborn. > >The implication (that G-d was born after the invention of the piano!) >is staggering. Not to mention the implied doctrine that instruments which sound in some key besides C are somehow demonically posessed. Especially horn players, who are a full perfect fourth away from truth :^) > >The serious question to those who understand perfect pitch by virtue of >having it: if I play you a scale made with the following intervals, where >the 1/1 is at a frequency that exactly matches an eq12 "E": > 1/1 8/7 3/2 10/7 5/3 12/7 > >I expect you'd call my 1/1 an E. But what would your reaction >be to the 3/2? It's "about B", but not exactly (or more exactly, >depending on your reference). Do you just hear B, or do you hear >a mockery of B-ness? I hear a B, out of tune. I am often exposed to this at work when I try to identify, say, a 1000 Hz tone by ear, or when I'm troubleshooting modems. > >And then WHAT do you do when hit with the 12/7 and 5/3, which are >both "sixths" above the "E", but neither one is anywhere near to >an eq12 C#. Cringe. No, seriously... I think that all these people who claim that they could identify the C# the doctor whistled on the way out of the delivery room are either being disingenuous or don't understand their talent very well themselves. I like to draw an analogy to language acquisition. None of us were born with the ability to speak English (substitute your native tongue here), but none of us remember learning it. The later you wait in life to learn a language, the more difficult it is - the same phenomenon may account for the difficulty of acquiring perfect pitch. This business of imputing color or personality to musical pitches is sort of interesting, but it reminds me of alchemy. Maybe I'm just not as sensitive as I was before I went to engineering school :^) -- Jeff Carroll carroll@ssc-vax.boeing.com "Do you think I care? ... I have an infinite amount of money." -Bill Gates
galetti@uservx.afwl.af.mil (04/12/91)
In article <3177@esquire.dpw.com>, rreid@DPW.COM (r l reid ) writes: > In article <346@heurikon.heurikon.com> gtaylor@vme.heurikon.com (Gregory Taylor) writes: >>I never thought of this before, but I'll bet that those tuning systems >>that don't adhere carefully to equal temperment, or those systems which >>involve the use of close tuning to produce "beating" tones as a part of >>the effect [like, say, Bali] must truly be a torturous experience. > > This is what I haven't been understanding about the whole concept - > if "perfect pitch" is inborn, does this imply that 12-to-the-8ve, > equal temperament is somehow wired into the brain by the Creator? > > The implication (that G-d was born after the invention of the piano!) > is staggering. Yes, and additionally it would imply that 440 Hz was also wired into the brain as a concert A. Why 440 Hz? My conclusion is that perfect pitch is an ABILITY that some people are born with, but it must be developed through exposure to music in a particular tuning. Our A=440 Hz equal tempered scale is the tuning that most of the western world perfect pitch people have. Perhaps someone with perfect pitch in the Orient has a different concept of perfect pitch. Not only that, but people born with the ability might've grown up with an out-of-tune piano. How do you develop perfect pitch in that environment? > > Ro ___________________________________________________________________________ / Ralph Galetti Internet: galetti@uservx.afwl.af.mil \ | PL/LITT Interests: computers, music, computers | | Kirtland AFB, NM 87117-6008 and music, golf, sleep. | \__"No, they couldn't actually prove that it was HIS vomit" - Nigel Tufnel__/
lucy@cdp.UUCP (04/12/91)
Perfect pitch, perfect pitch. I've been able to name notes immediately from any source (piano, voice, other instrument, car horn, computer beep) since I was 5 (OK, we didn't have computers then.) I *don't like* the term Perfect Pitch just because it creates this confusion. I think a much better term is Pitch Memory. Yes, the E's bleed into F's a little, and the G's into A flats. I do not have the fine discrimination for perfect intervals that the average string or wind player possesses (I am a keyboardist, and you know how we are.) I just don't think the two things have anything to do with one another. So, what is Pitch Memory? It's just like any other kind of memory, that is, in the human entity, slightly imprecise but largely reliable. What about conversations we remember? We usually don't get every word right. How about doing imitations of people? We get some elements of how they talk and move, and miss others. Some people, like Rich Little, get much more. Who knows why some of us, like myself, hooked up our labeling and categorizing ability to notename-hz relationships? Sometimes I think I learned to do it as a little kid because my eyesight was so bad...
charless@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Charles R. Sullivan) (04/13/91)
In article <3177@esquire.dpw.com> rreid@esquire.UUCP (r l reid ) writes: > >This is what I haven't been understanding about the whole concept - >if "perfect pitch" is inborn, does this imply that 12-to-the-8ve, >equal temperament is somehow wired into the brain by the Creator? [...] > > 1/1 8/7 3/2 10/7 5/3 12/7 > >I expect you'd call my 1/1 an E. But what would your reaction >be to the 3/2? It's "about B", but not exactly (or more exactly, >depending on your reference). Do you just hear B, or do you hear >a mockery of B-ness? > Those who prefer the terms 'absolute pitch' (what other musicians have is relative pitch) or 'pitch memory' have a good point. Perfect pitch does not necessarily mean any finer resolution of pitch discrimination, just the ability to hear a note out of the blue and be able to tell what pitch it is, or vice versa. If you take two trained musicains, one with p.p. and one without, play them an A 440, and then a slightly out-of-tune E, either one might be better able to to tell it was out of tune. It is an interesting question as to whether one might prefer just intonation, and the other equal temperament, but there is no reason that the p.p. endowed musician would be any less tolerant of slight variations in *relative* pitch than any other musician. In other words, once you play them the A 440 (assuming this is what the p.p. musicain is calibrated to), they will be equally bothered by an E that is, say an eigth tone flat, and equally likely to tolerate an E that is, say 1/40th tone flat. The difference is that if you play an A an eigth tone flat, and then an E equally flat, the p.p. musician will be upset, but the other will think it is just fine. As for equal temperament being pre-wired, you again get away from that implausable conclusion by considering perfect pitch as absolute pitch. The newborn p.p. baby doesn't know what pitch the doctor whistled as she left the delivery room, but next time the baby hears it, she recognizes it as the same pitch. If you played her a note a quarter tone higher, she could remember that too. But you don't-- the notes you play her are generally equally tempered steps apart, so these are the ones she learns names for. Charlie Sullivan charless@cory.berkeley.edu
alves@calvin.usc.edu (William Alves) (04/16/91)
In article <12727@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> charless@cory.Berkeley.EDU writes: >In article <3177@esquire.dpw.com> rreid@esquire.UUCP (r l reid ) writes: >> >>This is what I haven't been understanding about the whole concept - >>if "perfect pitch" is inborn, does this imply that 12-to-the-8ve, >>equal temperament is somehow wired into the brain by the Creator? >> >The newborn p.p. baby doesn't know what pitch the doctor whistled as she >left the delivery room, but next time the baby hears it, she recognizes it >as the same pitch. If you played her a note a quarter tone higher, she could >remember that too. But you don't-- the notes you play her are generally >equally tempered steps apart, so these are the ones she learns names for. > I think you're both right in assuming equal-tempered "perfect pitch" is learned. 12-tone equal temperament has not been handed down engraved on stone tablets. However, a couple of interesting questions remain -- if a general "pitch memory" ability is inborn, as some have claimed, how are such people recognized in a society which has no standard tuning system nor absolute pitch reference? And does this perfect pitch mean that one can discriminate, say, to the resolution of cents? If so, why do those with perfect pitch seem to be so bothered by music which is played at A=445, for example? I remember playing an electronic piece I had done in just intonation for a professor with perfect pitch once. He seemed okay with the 5/4 thirds and 3/2 fifths, but when it got to the 7/4 sevenths and 7/6 thirds he would visibly wince. Is this reaction simply a result of his ability, or a result of his expectations of what music SHOULD sound like? Bill Alves