bezenek@plains.NoDak.edu (Todd M. Bezenek KO0N) (10/25/90)
I am writing an article to convince North Dakota State University to
drop Zenith as its major computer vendor. I am looking for actual
instances of Zenith mistreating individual or institutional customers.
If you have a story, an old posting of a story, or know of an
archive site for comp.sys.zenith, please let me know by Friday, October
26.
Thank you very much,
Todd M. Bezenek
-- --=--+--=--
Todd Michael Bezenek /
Amateur --=---+---=--
Internet: bezenek@plains.nodak.edu Radio /|
UUCP: uunet!plains!bezenek Station ---=---+---=---
Bitnet: bezenek@plains KO0N |js@dukee.egr.duke.edu (Jeffrey A. Shorey) (10/25/90)
From article <6452@plains.NoDak.edu>, by bezenek@plains.NoDak.edu (Todd M. Bezenek KO0N): > I am writing an article to convince North Dakota State University to > drop Zenith as its major computer vendor. I am looking for actual > instances of Zenith mistreating individual or institutional customers. Why do you want to drop Zenith? My family has had 6 Heath/Zenith computers and _never_ had a stitch of trouble with them (except for the power supply connections on the H89). We have 2 Z-100s that have been going for 7 or 8 years now. We have a 151 that is still going, and two 158s. The documentation is infinitely superior to anything anybody else gives you with their computers (as far as I know). How can you have horror stories if you never have to talk to the vendor, the product is so well designed? - Jeff Shorey
fong@ksuvax1 (Eric Fong) (10/25/90)
In article <1131@cameron.egr.duke.edu> js@dukee.egr.duke.edu (Jeffrey A. Shorey) writes: >Why do you want to drop Zenith? My family has had 6 Heath/Zenith computers >and _never_ had a stitch of trouble with them (except for the power supply >connections on the H89). We have 2 Z-100s that have been going for 7 or 8 >years now. We have a 151 that is still going, and two 158s. The documentation >is infinitely superior to anything anybody else gives you with their computers >(as far as I know). How can you have horror stories if you never have to talk >to the vendor, the product is so well designed? > >- Jeff Shorey I agreed, I have had 2 Zenith computers so far, one Z-158, and got a Z-248 just this year. The 158 might be slow, but very reliable (I bought it in 1985!). I also agree on the documentation, I have seen manuals from other vendors, they are horrible. There might be horror story to tell about other computer, but not the ones from Zenith. --Eric Fong
rshelby@ms.uky.edu (Richard Shelby) (10/26/90)
In article <6452@plains.NoDak.edu>, bezenek@plains.NoDak.edu (Todd M. Bezenek KO0N) writes: > I am writing an article to convince North Dakota State University to > drop Zenith as its major computer vendor. I am looking for actual > instances of Zenith mistreating individual or institutional customers. I can tell you lots of horror stories involving IBM, a couple of bad items involving CompuAdd; but I've no complaints concerning ZDS machines or service. What bad experiences have you had? Malfunctioning equipment? Poor service? -- Richard L Shelby Dept of Health Services Univ of Kentucky rshelby@ms.uky.edu rshelby@ukma.BITNET {rutgers,uunet}!ukma!rshelby You're never too old to have a happy childhood.
BOYDJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Jeff Boyd) (10/26/90)
I won't buy anything BUT Zenith. I have a 248 from 1984 still running with no problems at all (original hard disk !). Where I work, a fleet of z-286 machines has had few problems in 3 years of extreme usage. Note however that the original posting seemed to focus on the vendor, not the equipment. This is a different matter, but Zenith ware is good enough that one rarely needs to talk to the vendor at all.
wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (David Lesher) (10/26/90)
My 158 is one of those.
I've never been able to get EMS to work. When I bought a VGA card, it
took two trips to ZDS for them to admit that:
1) yes, the CPU card should work with a Video 7 VGA.
2) yours won't
3) we don't know why.
After many letters, calls, etc, they replaced the card with one that
did work. Note the replaced card was NOT the one in the box at
purchase. THOSE were 40% jumpers--I sarcastically called them "flight
{grade} hardware" and got ZDS to come up with both CPU & Floppy/video
cards that were at least later than 'prototype' level.
I never succeeded in getting onto the MSDOS upgrade list, either.
The Capital Heath User Group members I knew used to kid me that
that {non pc clone} Z-100 was more compatible than my 158.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.....wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu
& no one will talk to a host that's close............(305) 255-RTFM
Unless the host (that isn't close)......................pob 570-335
is busy, hung or dead....................................33257-0335rwberry@hubcap.clemson.edu (Robert W Berry) (10/26/90)
wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (David Lesher) writes: >My 158 is one of those. This is strange, because I've had my 158 for almost 4 years, and I've never had a problem. (The one time the machine malfunctioned, Zenith sent a tech to look at it _IN_MY_DORM_ROOM_ who promptly told me it was too close to the wall, which took care of the problem.) >I've never been able to get EMS to work. I have 640k of EMS that works with no hitch. Did you buy your board from Zenith. (I've had both a Zenith board and an AST board, and both of them performed flawlessly.) >The Capital Heath User Group members I knew used to kid me that >that {non pc clone} Z-100 was more compatible than my 158. I've never had a compatibilty problem either. Overall I've been very happy with my 158. ZDS has been extremely helpful when it comes to producing any type of additional materials (technical references, extra manuals, etc.) that I might need. The only problem I have with the machine is that it's only an 8088 (really V20) processor, so it's sooooo slow. To the original poster: If you're looking for Zenith horror stories, you may be hard pressed. Pick just about any other manufacturer and I could help you, but I've never had anything but great service from Zenith. (I also worked at a computer center that had 100+ 148'2 and 158's, and these were real workhorse machines too. The IBM lab always had about 30% of the machines down, but the Zenith lab was almost always 100% operating.) Later, Bob -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -=- Bob Berry -=- PC-Guru's Inc. ! rwberry@hubcap.clemson.edu -=- -=- Teach them quick, before they think. ! 803-654-7623 || 803-656-2635 -=- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
arritt@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (10/26/90)
In article <90298.191725BOYDJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>, BOYDJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Jeff Boyd) writes: > Note however that the original posting seemed to focus on the vendor, > not the equipment. BINGO! How about: (1) LOOOOOOOONG delays in obtaining upgrade/replacement parts. I had to wait several months for a second serial port. Don't tell me that I could buy a serial port from another vendor; ZDS has our state contract so they've got us by the short-and-curlies (i.e. we're forbidden by our state purchasing office from going elsewhere). (2) Exorbitant prices for said upgrade/replacement parts. See e.g. several recent posts on the cost of replacing screens for laptops. As mentioned by others the equipment is actually quite reliable. The documentation is also better than that provided by most other vendors (though that certainly is damning with faint praise!) I've got a laptop that's used as part of my field equipment, and thus is sometimes used under adverse conditions. Although it still works like new, I pray the screen never cracks. I think the main problem is with ZDS's business strategy. They have been very aggressive at securing exclusive university/government contracts. While no on can fault them for having a successful sales organization, the exclusive nature of these contracts tends to produce a phone-company type of attitude (oops, even the telephone monopoly has now been broken up... :-) ). ________________________________________________________________________ Raymond W. Arritt | Assistant Professor | This is just me. If you want Dept. of Physics and Astronomy | KU's opinion write to: Univ. of Kansas | Dr. Gene Budig Lawrence, KS 66045 | Office of the Chancellor arritt@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu | University of Kansas arritt@ukanvax.bitnet | Lawrence, KS 66045
klee@nas.nasa.gov (King M. Lee) (10/26/90)
In article <90298.191725BOYDJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> BOYDJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Jeff Boyd) writes: > We have, at California State University, Bakersfield, had several hard disks go bad on one model of the 248 low profile computers. The major complaints that I have with Zenith is that is is not 100 percent compatible. I have a Zenith 386/16 and I purchased a memory card for it. It didn't work because the Zenith did not refresh I Meg chips the way others did. Some of my colleagues ran DOS 3.3 with hard disk partitions greater than 32 Meg. Some software did not run correctly (PC Tools) because DOS 3.3 has maximum partition size of 32 MBytes. My, and I believe many other, computer has slushware whereby ROM is moved to high RAM for increased speed. Unfortunately, I have heard that this interfers with some software (LOTUS version 3 ?) and the slushware cannot be turned off. These unexpected features cost me and my colleagues a great deal of time. As for reliability, I cannot make a judgement without a survey of thousands of computers. We have had problems with Zeniths, but we've also had problems with other computers. I've found their service bad, but others didn't. Maybe I got a rotten apple. Disclaimer: The views are my own and do not reflect anyone else's opinion .
koziarz@halibut.nosc.mil (Walter A. Koziarz) (10/26/90)
>From article <6452@plains.NoDak.edu>, by bezenek@plains.NoDak.edu (Todd M. Bezenek KO0N): >> I am writing an article to convince North Dakota State University to >> drop Zenith as its major computer vendor. I am looking for actual >> instances of Zenith mistreating individual or institutional customers. > Well, the ONLY Zenith Horror Stories that *I* can conceive of are: 1) Zenith sold ZDS to Groupe Bull 2) Zenith Data Systems *STOPPED* building the Z-100 Walt K.
fargo@iear.arts.rpi.edu (Irwin M. Fargo) (10/27/90)
From the sounds of it, I'm probably in the minority here. I bought a Zenith Z-248-12 about 2-3 years ago. Since then, I've gone through 4 hard drives. The first two were Seagate ST-251's. These each lasted about 6 months or so. When the second ST-251 went, they gave me a CMS 40 MB drive. This one didn't even last a week! Now, I'm running with a 40 MB Microscience drive. It's been working fine now for about a month, but one of my friends tells me that I should expect to be calling ZDS service in about 4 months. In conclusion: Thank God for service contracts! Thank you and happy hunting! Actually: Ethan M. Young "If Linus looked like Worf, would you Internet: fargo@iear.arts.rpi.edu try to take his blanket away?" Bitnet (??): usergac0@rpitsmts.bitnet - dorsai@pawl.rpi.edu Disclaimer: Who said what?
andy@cetus.mi.org (10/27/90)
In article <6452@plains.NoDak.edu> bezenek@plains.NoDak.edu (Todd M. Bezenek KO0N) writes: > >I am writing an article to convince North Dakota State University to >drop Zenith as its major computer vendor. I am looking for actual >instances of Zenith mistreating individual or institutional customers. > Is this a personal vindeta? Why do you dislike Zenith? I have found them to be both competant and responsive. Make certain that you are attacking the people responsible for any problems that you may have. For example, three years ago I had problems with a service place repairing a simple monochrome monitor. After two calls to Zenith I had a new monitor with in one week and the service center no longer services Zenith products. Now that Groupe Bull has taken over they seem to be getting even better. To make a long story short, if you have a problem with a service center you are best off changing your service center AND LETTING ZENITH KNOW. They care a lot more than you may know. At my previous University there was a problem with the on sight people servicing the machines so the Student rep called his rep complained and had the on sight service center changed. The current service people do an outstanding job. currently at Oakland University they are so happy with the situation (I know these people and they are NOT easy to please) they are purchasing another truck load of machines. If you want me to do a comparison of happy to unhappy Zenith users just let me know and I will summarize the results. Andy (pitonyak@cis.ohio-state.edu)
price@chakra.unl.edu (Chad Price) (10/27/90)
In <11167@hubcap.clemson.edu> rwberry@hubcap.clemson.edu (Robert W Berry) writes: >wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (David Lesher) writes: >>I've never been able to get EMS to work. >I have 640k of EMS that works with no hitch. Did you buy your board >from Zenith. (I've had both a Zenith board and an AST board, and both >of them performed flawlessly.) I have NO horror story either & have a Z-158 & a 386-16. However, the 158 is not 100% compatible with all EMS cards - to get mine to work, I had to 1) remove the last row of memory chips (512-768K) and use the ones on the EMS card to fill in base memory; and 2) tell Word Perfect 5.1 that I had EMS 3.2 rather than the 4.0 the EMS vendor claimed. Probelms were: 1) there was a memory address conflict between the Zenith chips in the last bank and the EMS card 2) The EMS vendor was selling an EMS 4.0 driver that did not actually meet the 4.0 specs. Chad PRice price@fergvax.unl.edu
fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) (10/28/90)
In article <1990Oct25.135059.16097@maverick.ksu.ksu.edu> fong@ksuvax1 (Eric Fong) writes: >In article <1131@cameron.egr.duke.edu> js@dukee.egr.duke.edu (Jeffrey A. Shorey) writes: >>Why do you want to drop Zenith? My family has had 6 Heath/Zenith computers >>and _never_ had a stitch of trouble with them (except for the power supply >>connections on the H89). We have 2 Z-100s that have been going for 7 or 8 >>years now. We have a 151 that is still going, and two 158s. The documentation >>is infinitely superior to anything anybody else gives you with their computers >>(as far as I know). How can you have horror stories if you never have to talk >>to the vendor, the product is so well designed? >> >>- Jeff Shorey > >I agreed, I have had 2 Zenith computers so far, one Z-158, and got a Z-248 >just this year. The 158 might be slow, but very reliable (I bought it in >1985!). I also agree on the documentation, I have seen manuals from other >vendors, they are horrible. There might be horror story to tell about other >computer, but not the ones from Zenith. > >--Eric Fong Zenith's older equipment (pre pc-clone) was excellent, but there "clones" leave a bit to be desired. It all depends on your application. in some cases they're great, but when you try to do some things they bomb. one problem is that some commercial software won't work on them, you need to get a zenith-specific version. in my opinion, that's a design flaw. Perhaps worse, recently zenith has seemed to forgotten the difference between a prototype and a production item. and lord help you if you get stuck with one of the early production machines, as zenith isn't the most cooperative company to deal with when it comes to getting replacements for early parts that fail prematurely or don't work like they should. From a happy z89 owner, who wants a z100, but not a z100pc... -- fzsitvay@techbook.COM - but don't quote me on that.... American Oil Company motto - Bend over, We'll pump!!!
bezenek@plains.NoDak.edu (Todd M. Bezenek KO0N) (10/28/90)
From article <6452@plains.NoDak.edu>, by bezenek@plains.NoDak.edu (Todd M. Bezenek KO0N): > I am writing an article to convince North Dakota State University to > drop Zenith as its major computer vendor. I am looking for actual > instances of Zenith mistreating individual or institutional customers. I have found that my problems (and those of others here at NDSU) have been caused by our vendor blaming Zenith for their own mistakes. All of the helpful input here on the net suggests that Zenith is a good source for student equipment, as long as it is through a reputable vendor. Thank you very much, Todd M. Bezenek -- --=--+--=-- Todd Michael Bezenek / Amateur --=---+---=-- Internet: bezenek@plains.nodak.edu Radio /| UUCP: uunet!plains!bezenek Station ---=---+---=--- Bitnet: bezenek@plains KO0N |
rshelby@ms.uky.edu (Richard Shelby) (10/29/90)
In article <1990Oct27.223708.12974@techbook.com>, fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) writes: [omission] > Zenith's older equipment (pre pc-clone) was excellent, but there "clones" > leave a bit to be desired. > > It all depends on your application. in some cases they're great, but > when you try to do some things they bomb. one problem is that some commercial > software won't work on them, you need to get a zenith-specific version. > in my opinion, that's a design flaw. What software problems have you had with ZDS pc clones? I use ZDS SupersPort, SupersPort 286, 386SX and 386-25. I have used Novell Netware 286, WordPerfect, Harvard Graphics, Lotus 1-2-3, Allways, Lotus Agenda, GrandView, Quattro, Quattro Pro, QuickBasic, QuickC, Generic CADD, askSam, Kermit, Bitcom, SAS PC, dBase III+, MS Windows and others without suffering any incompatibility. [omission] > From a happy z89 owner, who wants a z100, but not a z100pc... Is the software incompatibility a problem of the z100pc? Does ZDS still sell this machine? -- Richard L Shelby Dept of Health Services Univ of Kentucky rshelby@ms.uky.edu rshelby@ukma.BITNET {rutgers,uunet}!ukma!rshelby You're never too old to have a happy childhood.
wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (David Lesher) (10/29/90)
others said: >> Zenith's older equipment (pre pc-clone) was excellent, but there "clones" >> leave a bit to be desired. {} >> one problem is that some commercial >> software won't work on them, you need to get a zenith-specific version. >What software problems have you had with ZDS pc clones? When I at last got a CPU card that would work with my VGA card, Superkey wouldn't. I called Borland -- once I mentioned Z-158, I was told I had to buy an "upgrade" to work with it. For those who asked, I first tried EMS with an Amnesia board. It would not run @ 8 mhz, but would at 4.7. After 2 or three boards went back and forth, I got a designer at Xebec who said: Z-158? Forget it! and went on to explain its bus timing problems. After that, I called other suppliers before sending money. They all gave me the same answer, as did Intel when I asked about an Above Board. Note that I was a 'regular' customer -- I had no campus rep, only the Zenith store, to deal with. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.....wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu & no one will talk to a host that's close............(305) 255-RTFM Unless the host (that isn't close)......................pob 570-335 is busy, hung or dead....................................33257-0335
kent@wasp.eng.ufl.edu (Kent Phelps) (10/30/90)
In article <6452@plains.NoDak.edu> bezenek@plains.NoDak.edu (Todd M. Bezenek KO0N) writes: > >I am writing an article to convince North Dakota State University to >drop Zenith as its major computer vendor. I am looking for actual >instances of Zenith mistreating individual or institutional customers. Todd - Asking for a slanted view from the net is not a good way to build a foundation to base your Universities purchasing decisions on. Why not ask for an accross the board view to get a really objective viewpoint. Just my $.02 worth. -- Kent Phelps | Internet: kent@sun.ufnet.ufl.edu University of Florida | kent@digital.ufl.edu Digital Design Facility | Phone:904-392-2464 ***** Just say Yo ! *****
bobmon@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (RAMontante) (10/30/90)
wb8foz@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (David Lesher) <1990Oct28.234641.27543@mthvax.cs.miami.edu> : | | For those who asked, I first tried EMS with an Amnesia board. It would | not run @ 8 mhz, but would at 4.7. After 2 or three boards went back | and forth, I got a designer at Xebec who said: | Z-158? Forget it! | and went on to explain its bus timing problems. After that, I called | other suppliers before sending money. They all gave me the same answer, | as did Intel when I asked about an Above Board. There are (or at least were) suppliers of EMS boards that worked happily with the Z-158. I got a "RAMPartner" from PC Technologies in Ann Arbor that works great. I love the board. Unfortunately the company has dropped from sight (sigh).
wilker@descartes.math.purdue.edu (Clarence Wilkerson) (10/30/90)
I had trouble with an "amnesia" board in a Z-150. However, the second rev of the software from Xebec cured the problem. It ran fine with a 8 mhz speedup board in the 150. Clarence Wilkerson
fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) (10/30/90)
In article <16274@s.ms.uky.edu> rshelby@ms.uky.edu (Richard Shelby) writes: >In article <1990Oct27.223708.12974@techbook.com>, fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) writes: > > [omission] > >> Zenith's older equipment (pre pc-clone) was excellent, but there "clones" >> leave a bit to be desired. >> >> It all depends on your application. in some cases they're great, but >> when you try to do some things they bomb. one problem is that some commercial >> software won't work on them, you need to get a zenith-specific version. >> in my opinion, that's a design flaw. > >What software problems have you had with ZDS pc clones? I use ZDS >SupersPort, SupersPort 286, 386SX and 386-25. I have used Novell >Netware 286, WordPerfect, Harvard Graphics, Lotus 1-2-3, Allways, >Lotus Agenda, GrandView, Quattro, Quattro Pro, QuickBasic, QuickC, >Generic CADD, askSam, Kermit, Bitcom, SAS PC, dBase III+, MS Windows ^^^^^^^^^^ >and others without suffering any incompatibility. > I know for a fact that you need a Zenith specific version of MS windows if you want to run windows on most zenith pc clones, otherwise it eats your hard disk. there was a bit about this in this newsgroup perhaps a month or two ago. > [omission] > >> From a happy z89 owner, who wants a z100, but not a z100pc... > >Is the software incompatibility a problem of the z100pc? Does ZDS >still sell this machine? > the z100pc refers to the 100 series clone machines. they were often referred to as z100pc in the early days, to differentiate them from the z100, which many would argue was the finest machine in its time. > >-- >Richard L Shelby Dept of Health Services Univ of Kentucky >rshelby@ms.uky.edu rshelby@ukma.BITNET {rutgers,uunet}!ukma!rshelby > > You're never too old to have a happy childhood. -- fzsitvay@techbook.COM - but don't quote me on that.... American Oil Company motto - Bend over, We'll pump!!!
buck@granite.cr.bull.com (Kenneth J. Buck) (10/31/90)
In article <1990Oct30.043959.17414@techbook.com> fzsitvay@techbook.com (Frank Zsitvay) writes: > I know for a fact that you need a Zenith specific version of MS windows >if you want to run windows on most zenith pc clones, otherwise it eats your >hard disk. If I recall, this was related to the fact that Zenith rolled it's own DOS 3.3 to allow large disk partitions. Since DOS 4.x includes this support, does that mean you only need a special flavor of Windows if running the Zenith 3.3, but no longer necessary if running 4.x? Can anyone clarify?
rcook@frumpy.helios.nd.edu (10/31/90)
In article <1990Oct26.041643.28052@nas.nasa.gov>, klee@nas.nasa.gov (King M. Lee) writes: |>In article <90298.191725BOYDJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> BOYDJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Jeff Boyd) writes: |>> |>We have, at California State University, Bakersfield, had several |>hard disks go bad on one model of the 248 low profile computers. |> |>The major complaints that I have with Zenith is that is is not |>100 percent compatible. I have a Zenith 386/16 and I purchased |>a memory card for it. It didn't work because the Zenith did not |>refresh I Meg chips the way others did. Some of my colleagues |>ran DOS 3.3 with hard disk partitions greater than 32 Meg. |>Some software did not run correctly (PC Tools) because DOS |>3.3 has maximum partition size of 32 MBytes. My, and I |>believe many other, computer has slushware whereby ROM is |>moved to high RAM for increased speed. Unfortunately, I have |>heard that this interfers with some software (LOTUS version 3 ?) |>and the slushware cannot be turned off. These unexpected |>features cost me and my colleagues a great deal of time. |> Although I don't know about the rest of the stuff, PC-Tools version 5.5 or 6 will now work with the >32 Meg partitions on DOS 3.3+ or DOS 4.01. That was a problem with PC-Tools being written before big partitions came into existence. Since PC-Tools directly modifies the disk, it wouldn't work once they changed the format of the boot sectors in order to use big disks. Norton Utilties had the same problem until they came out with version 4.5. Kelley Cook rcook@darwin.cc.nd.edu
Jeff Boyd <BOYDJ@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> (11/01/90)
I just saw my name and userid cited as the author of something I most certainly did not post here (or anywhere). Please ensure that you've got the correct name when quoting someone else's posting !
MARK@ncsuvm.ncsu.edu (Mark Hellkamp) (11/02/90)
I work on ZDS equipment, and I would not buy or recomend anyone buy one
until Zenith is able to support their products. I have customers with machines
under WARANTY that have had parts backordered for several months! I won't
mention all the other problems they have.
And just so you don't think I have a thing against ZDS, I own a Z-158 and
I have never had any problems at all with it. I think it is one of the
better clones made at the time when I bought it.
Mark Hellkamp
mark@ncsuvm
Disclaimer - these opinions are mine etc