[comp.ivideodisc] How much can be put on a videodisc

gest_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Gavin Stark) (11/19/90)

Quick question:
	Does anyone know the maximum number of seconds (or hours) that can
be put on a videodisc?  Does it depend on things like resolution, recording
speed etc?  I know nothing about videosic technology but would like to do
some work with it.

	Any help would be appreciated.


-- 
Gavin Stark				         gest_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
Member, society to promote the non-gender specific nature of the word "dude" 
"Knowledge is the ability to forget things." Arnold Pizer (Math Professor)
Gavin: (person) Reported to be the largest waste of carbon in the universe.

a544@mindlink.UUCP (Rick McCormack) (11/19/90)

Kathy,

The CLV design is mostly used for movies, since it holds about 2 hours of
stuff, while the CAV is used for interactive requiring stills - it holds about
30 minutes.  Rumors have abounded for about 5 months that there is a version of
CLV being tested that includes a _frame grabber_ - a memory unit that will hold
individual frames for use as stills.  This would give us access to up to 2
hours of video, with the added advantage of stills ( I believe this is called
*Heaven* for interactive designers :-)

Actually, there is no reason why CLV units could not be equipped with built-in
frame grabbers capable of storing from 1 to 4 frames at a reasonable price.
Memory requirements would be affordable at about $60.00 per meg.  Egad! my
videodisc unit would have more memory than my computer.  (Oh well, I bet my
toaster will have more memory than my computer when I install the home security
system in it.)

Rick McCormack, Vancouver BC  Canada

clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) (11/19/90)

In article <10527@ur-cc.UUCP> gest_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Gavin Stark) 
writes:
>
>Quick question:
>	Does anyone know the maximum number of seconds (or hours) that can
>be put on a videodisc?  Does it depend on things like resolution, recording
>speed etc?  I know nothing about videosic technology but would like to do
>some work with it.
>

Quick answer: there are two types of videodiscs: CAV (constant angular velocity)
and CLV (constant linear velocity). One can hold 54,000 frames per side
(30 min x 60 sec/min x 30 frames/sec) and is VERY fast access; the other has
slower access (as long as three or four seconds) but holds twice as many
frames per side.

Due to my constitututional inability to deal with acronyms, I forget which
is which--but I believe the faster one, the one that has 30 min/side, is the
"standard."

Of course, that's 30 minutes of motion video. Most videodisc programs make
good use of the fact that you can have two to four tracks of audio as
well. Example: seek frame 4000, a still of Terra as seen from space, disable
video passthrough (i.e., "grab" or "freeze" the image), move the heads to 
frame 6000, play 15 seconds of narration from audio track B. One-thirtieth
of a second of video has provided a "picture" for 15 seconds. Careful inter-
spersion of stills with motion video can make a 100-minute show out of a 30-
minute videodisc with no problem at all.

--Kathy

(Help! I feel like I'm the only person talking on this newsgroup...)


-- 
...........................................................................
:   Kathy Strong               :  "Try our Hubble-Rita: just one shot,     :
:  (Clouds moving slowly)      :   and everything's blurry"                :
:   clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu  :                           --El Arroyo     :
:..........................................................................:

hathaway@sea.com (Rob Hathaway) (11/20/90)

In article <39941@ut-emx.uucp> clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) writes:
>Quick answer: there are two types of videodiscs: CAV (constant angular velocity)
>and CLV (constant linear velocity). 
> ...
>Due to my constitututional inability to deal with acronyms, I forget which
>is which--but I believe the faster one, the one that has 30 min/side, is the
>"standard."

This is CAV.  As far as I know, CAV is more common in interactive video
applications.  But it may be easier to find CLV disks (sometimes called 
"Extended Play") for your home videodisc player (i.e. for movies).

>Of course, that's 30 minutes of motion video. Most videodisc programs make
>good use of the fact that you can have two to four tracks of audio as
>well. Example: seek frame 4000, a still of Terra as seen from space, disable
>video passthrough (i.e., "grab" or "freeze" the image), move the heads to 
>frame 6000, play 15 seconds of narration from audio track B.

The ability to "grab" an image while playing other frames may depend on the 
overlay circuitry you are using.  It may also be a feature of the player. 
This feature is, however, becoming more common, so make sure you look for
it in the hardware you buy in the future.

>--Kathy
>
>(Help! I feel like I'm the only person talking on this newsgroup...)

Not any more :-)

-Rob

b-davis%cai.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Brad Davis) (11/20/90)

In article <39941@ut-emx.uucp> clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) writes:
>Due to my constitututional inability to deal with acronyms, I forget which
>is which--but I believe the faster one, the one that has 30 min/side, is the
>"standard."


CAV = 54,000 frames per side (30 min x 60 sec/min x 30 frames/sec)
CLV = 2 hours of video.

CAV is used for single frame stuff.
CLV is used for most movies, etc.

>(Help! I feel like I'm the only person talking on this newsgroup...)

Almost :-)
-- 
Brad Davis	..!uunet.uu.net!cs.utah.edu!cai.utah.edu!b-davis
		b-davis@cs.utah.edu, b-davis@cai.utah.edu
One drunk driver can ruin your whole day.

king@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca (Stephen King) (11/21/90)

In article <39941@ut-emx.uucp> clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) writes:
>
>Due to my constitututional inability to deal with acronyms, I forget which
>is which--but I believe the faster one, the one that has 30 min/side, is the
>"standard."

CAV discs, usually considered the standard for interactive video systems,
are the 'faster' ones with 54,000 frames per side. CLV is the standard for
movies and the like -- they don't need a really good still frame. On CAV
discs the tracks are concentric, like a computer disc. On CLV discs, the
track is a spiral, like a phonograph record, and the disc spins faster when
reading the inner tracks in order to keep the same 'linear' velocity.

>(Help! I feel like I'm the only person talking on this newsgroup...)

Well I hope this helps to dispell such feelings, Kathy.

-- 
                       Se non e` vero, e` ben trovato 
     ...{utzoo|mnetor}!dciem!dretor!king        king@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca

chung@ils.nwu.edu (Mark Chung) (11/21/90)

In article <3863@mindlink.UUCP> a544@mindlink.UUCP (Rick McCormack) writes:
> Rumors have abounded for about 5 months that there is a version of
> CLV being tested that includes a _frame grabber_ - a memory unit that 
will hold
> individual frames for use as stills.  This would give us access to up to 
2
> hours of video, with the added advantage of stills 
> 
> Actually, there is no reason why CLV units could not be equipped with 
built-in
> frame grabbers capable of storing from 1 to 4 frames at a reasonable 
price.

The Pioneer LDV-8000 has a frame memory, so it handles still and other 
special effects (step, fast forward/reverse, still with independent audio) 
with CLV (I just tried it). 
However, we are using CAV disks in order to support stills on older 
machines such as the
LDV-4200 and the LC-V330 (autochanger).  Our prototype system uses a
video digitizer (RasterOps 364) which puts the image on the Mac monitor. 
This board also
can freeze the image, but in some situations we use a tv monitor, and the
player must freeze the image.

The Pioneer manual says that in order to support CLV special effects the 
disk must
be recorded with a second code. Our own disks and the Nat'l Geographic 
disks seem to
have this;  is this fairly standard?

Mark

a544@mindlink.UUCP (Rick McCormack) (11/25/90)

Kathy Strong, in an article writes:

The original poster (Rick?) says there's a rumor of CLV units with frame
grabbers--this implies that CLV units don't currently have them. Is this
referring to "low-end players"?  Just how "high-end" does a player have to
be before having a frame-grabber (which is actually, as I tried to explain
in an earlier posting, a function which DISABLES video pass-through--surely
not that difficult to implement)? I have only worked with the 8000s, and
am not really familiar with the functions of 4200s, 6000s, and so on...
*******end quote***********
Kathy,
I work for consultants who TRY to explain strategic planning to executive level
teams.  Two of these consultants in particular draw heavily on movies to create
positive examples of team functions.  (12 Angry Men, The Mission, etc.)  Since
most of these movies are distributed on CLV, and since we already use the laser
disc player for other aspects of the presentations, it would be nice to use the
laserdisc versions of these movies (at least the 10-25 second sections we want
to show) but the problems stem from not being able to hold one frame up, while
talking about the action to come/just past.  We use the 4200 and 2200.  I would
like to see the 2200 equipped with an in-machine frame grabber, to extend the
usefulness of programs like Authorware on the Mac (and the PC).

The 8000 is a (VERY) nice machine, but in Canada, tres expensive, as they say
in Quebec.  We poor independents have to suffer [:-{  ] with the cheapo units.

As an aside, I sure am glad I found this group.  My background is multi-media
(slide, video, audio, live speakers, 'Vegas style entertainment) for corporate
meetings.  I have just finished a years training in the new multimedia, and am
concentraing on bringing some of the techniques into the boardroom for
strategic planners.  A hard slog, but there is some interest even in this
lonely outpost on the Pacific Rim  :-)

My thanks to all who contribute and read this group - I don't feel nearly as
alone now.
_____________________________________________________________
| Rick McCormack |  IMAGISTICS BUSINESS THEATRE TECHNOLOGY   |
| Vancouver,  BC |  Information transfer - with a purpose.   |
|     CANADA     |  INTERACTIVE  COMPREHENSIVE  ENLIGHTENING |
|________________|___________________________________________|

clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) (11/25/90)

In article <18@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> chung@ils.nwu.edu (Mark Chung) writes:
>In article <3863@mindlink.UUCP> a544@mindlink.UUCP (Rick McCormack) writes:
>> Rumors have abounded for about 5 months that there is a version of
>> CLV being tested that includes a _frame grabber_ - a memory unit that 
>> will hold individual frames for use as stills.  This would give us access 
>> ...
>> Actually, there is no reason why CLV units could not be equipped with 
>> built-in frame grabbers capable of storing from 1 to 4 frames at a 
>> reasonable price.
>
>The Pioneer LDV-8000 has a frame memory, so it handles still and other 
>special effects (step, fast forward/reverse, still with independent audio) 
>with CLV (I just tried it). 
>However, we are using CAV disks in order to support stills on older 
>machines such as the
>LDV-4200 and the LC-V330 (autochanger).  Our prototype system uses a
>video digitizer (RasterOps 364) which puts the image on the Mac monitor. 
>This board also
>can freeze the image, but in some situations we use a tv monitor, and the
>player must freeze the image.
>
>The Pioneer manual says that in order to support CLV special effects the 
>disk must
>be recorded with a second code. Our own disks and the Nat'l Geographic 
>disks seem to
>have this;  is this fairly standard?
>
>Mark


We are using Pioneer LDV-8000s and they do indeed work fine with CLV discs.
The extra code (I forget its name) is required to address the disc down to
the frame level; otherwise, you can only search to the nearest second, I
believe. It seems to be pretty standard to include the code.

Authoring software is notoriously intolerant of the quirks of CLV--for example,
one authoring package we had a heavy investment in would simply choke on
any frame number higher than 65535. An unfortunate limitation on a disc with
108,000 frames... We got them to patch it in the search function, but from
time to time one still finds cropping up the assumption that a short integer
is all one will ever need as a frame number. Most annoying, especially as
the software doesn't give you any obvious kind of error alert--it simply
truncates the long integer into a short one (that is, gives you the number
mod 65535) and goes its merry way.

The original poster (Rick?) says there's a rumor of CLV units with frame
grabbers--this implies that CLV units don't currently have them. Is this
referring to "low-end players"?  Just how "high-end" does a player have to
be before having a frame-grabber (which is actually, as I tried to explain
in an earlier posting, a function which DISABLES video pass-through--surely
not that difficult to implement)? I have only worked with the 8000s, and 
am not really familiar with the functions of 4200s, 6000s, and so on...

--K


-- 
...........................................................................
:   Kathy Strong               :  "Try our Hubble-Rita: just one shot,     :
:  (Clouds moving slowly)      :   and everything's blurry"                :
:   clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu  :                           --El Arroyo     :
:..........................................................................:

rjn@hpfcso.HP.COM (Bob Niland) (11/25/90)

re: > The original poster (Rick?)  says there's a rumor of CLV units with
    > frame grabbers--this implies that CLV units don't currently have them.
    > Is this referring to "low-end players"?  Just how "high-end" does a
    > player have to be before having a frame-grabber (which is actually, as
    > I tried to explain in an earlier posting, a function which DISABLES
    > video pass-through--surely not that difficult to implement)?  I have
    > only worked with the 8000s, and am not really familiar with the
    > functions of 4200s, 6000s, and so on...

The LD-V8000 may be the only player with true frame store.  The lower-end
Pioneer industrial players don't have it (although the '6000 may have field
store).  The '4200 has neither.

No consumer players, including the $3500 Pioneer LD-S2, have frame store.
Most priced above $700 have field store.

Regards,                                              Hewlett-Packard
Bob Niland                                            3404 East Harmony Road
Internet: rjn@hpfcrjn.FC.HP.COM                       Fort Collins
UUCP: [hplabs|hpu*!hpfcse]!hpfcrjn!rjn                CO          80525-9599

a544@mindlink.UUCP (Rick McCormack) (11/28/90)

Voila!  I found a little more detail on what info goes onto a CD-XX disc.
CD-V (CD-Video) 20 minustes of music PLUS 5 minutes of video with sound; the
video is not full motion AT THIS TIME, because the CD specs can't handle the
bandwidth.

CD-I (CD-Interactive) a Sony-Philips development, using High Sierra encoding
enhanced for more detail.  Uses a special decoder based on Motorolas 68000 chip
(to have been completed by this Fall).  Currently, offers 128 color
10-frames/second video - that decoder will change this.

Sony, Philips and Matsushita have licensed developer kits and hardware tools
out in industry.  these tools include run-time, source conversion,
disc-building.  The hardware consisted of a simulator to allow program testing
on existing CD players.

Price on this wonder was to be in the $500-1,000 range; my bet is more like
$1,500 (all in US dollars - I am posting from Canada, home of the $0.85 dollar
this morning).

CD-XA (CD-eXtended Architecture) is an upgrade to CD-ROM.  It incorporates CD-I
enhanced graphics and audio capabilities to existing players, via a chip
upgrade.  (650 Megabyte= 16 hours audio in mono at a quality comparable to AM
radio -- WOW! Won't Elvis fans be pleased?)

DVI (Digital Video Interactive) offers full-motion interactive video using
highly compressed images, and may de-rail CD-I development.  Using SCSI at 12.5
megabytes per second, using the standard CD-ROM form factor (Hey! That means
its the same size!  Why didn't you say that?  Cause no-one else says that.
OH!) with 650 Megabytes of storage, you can expect 72 minutes of full-motion
video.

As an aside, a study in 1988 by Business Communications Co., indicated that by
1993, the market would be split as follows:
videodisc players: 17.1% (such accuracy)

CD-ROM: 40.1%

CD-Video (CD-I and DVI): 33.5%
This is for industry growth figures in business use.  Any ideas if these
figures have changed in two years?

______________________________________________________________
| Rick McCormack |  IMAGISTICS BUSINESS THEATRE TECHNOLOGY    |
| Vancouver,  BC |  Information transfer - with a purpose.    |
|     CANADA     |  ________________________________________  |
|  AOL:  Rique   |  INTERACTIVE  COMPREHENSIVE  ENLIGHTENING  |
|________________|____________________________________________|

a1654@mindlink.UUCP (Michael Beck) (12/01/90)

        In this discussion on CD-I, CD-V, etc., which are coming, no mention
has been made of Commodores' CDTV which is available in limited release now.
General release after Christmas.
        This machine is basically an Amiga 500 in a box that plays standard
ISO-9660 CDs, CD audio and CD Graphic disks. It is designed to be completely
interactive with a remote infrared control.
        Just some of the specs are a Sony/Philips type CD-ROM standard mode 1,
mode 2. Video outputs:
        Analog RGB, Digital RGB
        Composite Video NTSC (RCA connector)
        component video Y-C(S connector for S-VHS and Hi8)
        RF modulated
        optional genlock capabilities via plug in module.
        Three-mode (CDTV, video source or mixed) under software
        control.
        8X oversampling stereo sound
        Centronic parallel port
        RS-232 serial intereface
        External floppy drive interface
        Harewired alternative to IR for a keyboard, mouse, joystick
        2 audio output ports (RCA type)
        MIDI in and out.
        Stereo headphone jack

        It is being sold at around $995.00 Canadian.
        Oh, and it has a DMA slot for SCSI, LAN, etc.

        Just proplr might be interested as this machine is available and will
be out for 6-10 month before CD-I appears on the market.
--
Michael Beck
a1654@Mindlink.UUCP
"So, like, whatever..."

rjn@hpfcso.HP.COM (Bob Niland) (12/02/90)

re: > Voila!  I found a little more detail on what info goes onto a CD-XX
    > disc.  CD-V (CD-Video) 20 minustes of music PLUS 5 minutes of video
    > with sound; the video is not full motion AT THIS TIME, because the CD
    > specs can't handle the bandwidth.

If you are referring to the consumer 5-inch CDV media, this is not true.
After the 20 minute audio segment near the inner hub, the CDV5 can contain
just shy of 6 minutes of full-motion video.  Combi players always play the
video track first, then backspace to the audio-only (accompanied by a drop
in rotation rate from ~1800 rpm to ~180 rpm).

I have several of these discs in NTSC, and as far as I can tell, the only
difference between CDV5 video and ordinary LD8 and LD12 LaserVision (now
LaserDisc) standard video is that the CDV5 has ONLY digital sound (no FM
analog sound).  To my knowledge, no new CDV5 titles have been released in
the last 18 months, and Polygram/Polydor (the major label in CDV5) has
announced that they will do no more.

Note also:  early NTSC LD8 and LD12 digital sound releases often bear the
"CD-Video" logo.  Until Pioneer surrendered their trademark rights to the
term "LaserDisc", PAL LD8s and LD12s with digital sound were also called
"CDV".  (Since, unlike NTSC discs, PAL discs can't have both digital and
analog sound, the older analog PAL discs were called "LV".)

I'm told there is also a 5-inch technology called "CVD", about which I know
nothing.

Regards,                                              Hewlett-Packard
Bob Niland                                            3404 East Harmony Road
Internet: rjn@hpfcrjn.FC.HP.COM                       Fort Collins
UUCP: [hplabs|hpu*!hpfcse]!hpfcrjn!rjn                CO          80525-9599

greg@tcnz2.tcnz.co.nz (Greg Calkin) (12/03/90)

In article <3977@mindlink.UUCP> a544@mindlink.UUCP (Rick McCormack) writes:
>DVI (Digital Video Interactive) offers full-motion interactive video using
>highly compressed images, and may de-rail CD-I development.  Using SCSI at 12.5
>megabytes per second, using the standard CD-ROM form factor (Hey! That means
>its the same size!  Why didn't you say that?  Cause no-one else says that.
>OH!) with 650 Megabytes of storage, you can expect 72 minutes of full-motion
>video.
650M / 12.5 MBs = 52 sec
650M / 1.25 MBs = 520 sec
       ^^^^^^^^ normal scsi
72 min * 60 sec * 1.25MBs = 5400 Meg
72 min * 60 sec * 12.5MBs = 54000 Meg

650Meg / (72 * 60) ~= 150Kps

Where do you get 72 minutes of full video from ?
-- 
Greg Calkin, Systems Engineer and Dreamer                    (greg@tcnz.co.nz)
Thomas Cook N.Z. Limited, PO Box 24, Auckland CPO, New Zealand, Ph (09)-793920
Disclaimer : Would you buy a used car from someone with these opinions ?

kdarling@hobbes.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (12/09/90)

> In this discussion on CD-I, CD-V, etc., which are coming, no mention
> has been made of Commodores' CDTV which is available in limited release now.
> General release after Christmas.
>
> It is being sold at around $995.00 Canadian.

I'd heard that it was previewed at a Canadian Amiga show, but won't
be available for US sale until months after its release in Europe 2Q '91.
Have you seen it in a store?

Commodore originally announced that CDTV would be available with
a "hundred" discs for the Christmas season.  They missed, which is
understandable. But if CD-I comes out in stores before next season,
then I don't see CDTV being able to make it in the mass market.

That is, it'd be hard to visualize the general buying public going into
an audio-video store, and selecting a Commodore unit (whose discs would be
incompatible with anything else)... instead of choosing from a shelf full of
other well-known brands (Matsushita, Yamaha, Pioneer, Sony, Philips, et al)
which _do_ all play the same discs... and which have better graphics to boot.

I think Commodore was very clever to try to jump ahead of the coming
CD-I bandwagon, and few if any other computers could've been used to do so.
But CDTV is pretty much pre-doomed, I'd think.  At best, it'll serve as
a "feeler" for public reaction to interactive TV... at worst, it'll make
a lot of people mad when they realize they bought a "loner".  best - kev

 | Kevin Darling        | Internet: kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu   | OS-9 &
 | 919-872-7986 anytime | CIS: 76703,4227   Delphi:OS9ugpres | 680x(x)

hugh@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca (Hugh D. Gamble) (12/13/90)

In article <1990Dec9.082724.22804@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu> kdarling@hobbes.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) writes:
>> In this discussion on CD-I, CD-V, etc., which are coming, no mention
>> has been made of Commodores' CDTV which is available in limited release now.
>> General release after Christmas.
>>
>> It is being sold at around $995.00 Canadian.
>
>I'd heard that it was previewed at a Canadian Amiga show, but won't
>be available for US sale until months after its release in Europe 2Q '91.

Sounds right.  It was *previewed* at the Toronto World of Commodore
Amiga show.  Expected Canadian list price when it comes out is
"Under $1,500.00 CDN"

>Commodore originally announced that CDTV would be available with
>a "hundred" discs for the Christmas season.  They missed, which is

A lot of the discs will be ports of existing Amiga s/w and cd-roms
for other computers.

>understandable. But if CD-I comes out in stores before next season,
>then I don't see CDTV being able to make it in the mass market.

I won't touch this one, it could mushroom :-)  Don't write off CDTV
yet.  Let's see what happens when it comes out.

> | Kevin Darling        | Internet: kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu   | OS-9 &
> | 919-872-7986 anytime | CIS: 76703,4227   Delphi:OS9ugpres | 680x(x)

-- 
# Hugh D. Gamble, NTT Systems Inc. (at DCIEM (416) 635-2156) Std. Disclaimers #
# hugh@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca, hugh@kink.UUCP                                    #
# ** Neural net; holds your mind hour after hour. **                          #