gest_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Gavin Stark) (11/19/90)
Quick question: Does anyone know the maximum number of seconds (or hours) that can be put on a videodisc? Does it depend on things like resolution, recording speed etc? I know nothing about videosic technology but would like to do some work with it. Any help would be appreciated. -- Gavin Stark gest_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu Member, society to promote the non-gender specific nature of the word "dude" "Knowledge is the ability to forget things." Arnold Pizer (Math Professor) Gavin: (person) Reported to be the largest waste of carbon in the universe.
a544@mindlink.UUCP (Rick McCormack) (11/19/90)
Kathy, The CLV design is mostly used for movies, since it holds about 2 hours of stuff, while the CAV is used for interactive requiring stills - it holds about 30 minutes. Rumors have abounded for about 5 months that there is a version of CLV being tested that includes a _frame grabber_ - a memory unit that will hold individual frames for use as stills. This would give us access to up to 2 hours of video, with the added advantage of stills ( I believe this is called *Heaven* for interactive designers :-) Actually, there is no reason why CLV units could not be equipped with built-in frame grabbers capable of storing from 1 to 4 frames at a reasonable price. Memory requirements would be affordable at about $60.00 per meg. Egad! my videodisc unit would have more memory than my computer. (Oh well, I bet my toaster will have more memory than my computer when I install the home security system in it.) Rick McCormack, Vancouver BC Canada
clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) (11/19/90)
In article <10527@ur-cc.UUCP> gest_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Gavin Stark) writes: > >Quick question: > Does anyone know the maximum number of seconds (or hours) that can >be put on a videodisc? Does it depend on things like resolution, recording >speed etc? I know nothing about videosic technology but would like to do >some work with it. > Quick answer: there are two types of videodiscs: CAV (constant angular velocity) and CLV (constant linear velocity). One can hold 54,000 frames per side (30 min x 60 sec/min x 30 frames/sec) and is VERY fast access; the other has slower access (as long as three or four seconds) but holds twice as many frames per side. Due to my constitututional inability to deal with acronyms, I forget which is which--but I believe the faster one, the one that has 30 min/side, is the "standard." Of course, that's 30 minutes of motion video. Most videodisc programs make good use of the fact that you can have two to four tracks of audio as well. Example: seek frame 4000, a still of Terra as seen from space, disable video passthrough (i.e., "grab" or "freeze" the image), move the heads to frame 6000, play 15 seconds of narration from audio track B. One-thirtieth of a second of video has provided a "picture" for 15 seconds. Careful inter- spersion of stills with motion video can make a 100-minute show out of a 30- minute videodisc with no problem at all. --Kathy (Help! I feel like I'm the only person talking on this newsgroup...) -- ........................................................................... : Kathy Strong : "Try our Hubble-Rita: just one shot, : : (Clouds moving slowly) : and everything's blurry" : : clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu : --El Arroyo : :..........................................................................:
hathaway@sea.com (Rob Hathaway) (11/20/90)
In article <39941@ut-emx.uucp> clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) writes: >Quick answer: there are two types of videodiscs: CAV (constant angular velocity) >and CLV (constant linear velocity). > ... >Due to my constitututional inability to deal with acronyms, I forget which >is which--but I believe the faster one, the one that has 30 min/side, is the >"standard." This is CAV. As far as I know, CAV is more common in interactive video applications. But it may be easier to find CLV disks (sometimes called "Extended Play") for your home videodisc player (i.e. for movies). >Of course, that's 30 minutes of motion video. Most videodisc programs make >good use of the fact that you can have two to four tracks of audio as >well. Example: seek frame 4000, a still of Terra as seen from space, disable >video passthrough (i.e., "grab" or "freeze" the image), move the heads to >frame 6000, play 15 seconds of narration from audio track B. The ability to "grab" an image while playing other frames may depend on the overlay circuitry you are using. It may also be a feature of the player. This feature is, however, becoming more common, so make sure you look for it in the hardware you buy in the future. >--Kathy > >(Help! I feel like I'm the only person talking on this newsgroup...) Not any more :-) -Rob
b-davis%cai.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Brad Davis) (11/20/90)
In article <39941@ut-emx.uucp> clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) writes: >Due to my constitututional inability to deal with acronyms, I forget which >is which--but I believe the faster one, the one that has 30 min/side, is the >"standard." CAV = 54,000 frames per side (30 min x 60 sec/min x 30 frames/sec) CLV = 2 hours of video. CAV is used for single frame stuff. CLV is used for most movies, etc. >(Help! I feel like I'm the only person talking on this newsgroup...) Almost :-) -- Brad Davis ..!uunet.uu.net!cs.utah.edu!cai.utah.edu!b-davis b-davis@cs.utah.edu, b-davis@cai.utah.edu One drunk driver can ruin your whole day.
king@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca (Stephen King) (11/21/90)
In article <39941@ut-emx.uucp> clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) writes: > >Due to my constitututional inability to deal with acronyms, I forget which >is which--but I believe the faster one, the one that has 30 min/side, is the >"standard." CAV discs, usually considered the standard for interactive video systems, are the 'faster' ones with 54,000 frames per side. CLV is the standard for movies and the like -- they don't need a really good still frame. On CAV discs the tracks are concentric, like a computer disc. On CLV discs, the track is a spiral, like a phonograph record, and the disc spins faster when reading the inner tracks in order to keep the same 'linear' velocity. >(Help! I feel like I'm the only person talking on this newsgroup...) Well I hope this helps to dispell such feelings, Kathy. -- Se non e` vero, e` ben trovato ...{utzoo|mnetor}!dciem!dretor!king king@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca
chung@ils.nwu.edu (Mark Chung) (11/21/90)
In article <3863@mindlink.UUCP> a544@mindlink.UUCP (Rick McCormack) writes: > Rumors have abounded for about 5 months that there is a version of > CLV being tested that includes a _frame grabber_ - a memory unit that will hold > individual frames for use as stills. This would give us access to up to 2 > hours of video, with the added advantage of stills > > Actually, there is no reason why CLV units could not be equipped with built-in > frame grabbers capable of storing from 1 to 4 frames at a reasonable price. The Pioneer LDV-8000 has a frame memory, so it handles still and other special effects (step, fast forward/reverse, still with independent audio) with CLV (I just tried it). However, we are using CAV disks in order to support stills on older machines such as the LDV-4200 and the LC-V330 (autochanger). Our prototype system uses a video digitizer (RasterOps 364) which puts the image on the Mac monitor. This board also can freeze the image, but in some situations we use a tv monitor, and the player must freeze the image. The Pioneer manual says that in order to support CLV special effects the disk must be recorded with a second code. Our own disks and the Nat'l Geographic disks seem to have this; is this fairly standard? Mark
a544@mindlink.UUCP (Rick McCormack) (11/25/90)
Kathy Strong, in an article writes: The original poster (Rick?) says there's a rumor of CLV units with frame grabbers--this implies that CLV units don't currently have them. Is this referring to "low-end players"? Just how "high-end" does a player have to be before having a frame-grabber (which is actually, as I tried to explain in an earlier posting, a function which DISABLES video pass-through--surely not that difficult to implement)? I have only worked with the 8000s, and am not really familiar with the functions of 4200s, 6000s, and so on... *******end quote*********** Kathy, I work for consultants who TRY to explain strategic planning to executive level teams. Two of these consultants in particular draw heavily on movies to create positive examples of team functions. (12 Angry Men, The Mission, etc.) Since most of these movies are distributed on CLV, and since we already use the laser disc player for other aspects of the presentations, it would be nice to use the laserdisc versions of these movies (at least the 10-25 second sections we want to show) but the problems stem from not being able to hold one frame up, while talking about the action to come/just past. We use the 4200 and 2200. I would like to see the 2200 equipped with an in-machine frame grabber, to extend the usefulness of programs like Authorware on the Mac (and the PC). The 8000 is a (VERY) nice machine, but in Canada, tres expensive, as they say in Quebec. We poor independents have to suffer [:-{ ] with the cheapo units. As an aside, I sure am glad I found this group. My background is multi-media (slide, video, audio, live speakers, 'Vegas style entertainment) for corporate meetings. I have just finished a years training in the new multimedia, and am concentraing on bringing some of the techniques into the boardroom for strategic planners. A hard slog, but there is some interest even in this lonely outpost on the Pacific Rim :-) My thanks to all who contribute and read this group - I don't feel nearly as alone now. _____________________________________________________________ | Rick McCormack | IMAGISTICS BUSINESS THEATRE TECHNOLOGY | | Vancouver, BC | Information transfer - with a purpose. | | CANADA | INTERACTIVE COMPREHENSIVE ENLIGHTENING | |________________|___________________________________________|
clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kathy Strong) (11/25/90)
In article <18@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> chung@ils.nwu.edu (Mark Chung) writes: >In article <3863@mindlink.UUCP> a544@mindlink.UUCP (Rick McCormack) writes: >> Rumors have abounded for about 5 months that there is a version of >> CLV being tested that includes a _frame grabber_ - a memory unit that >> will hold individual frames for use as stills. This would give us access >> ... >> Actually, there is no reason why CLV units could not be equipped with >> built-in frame grabbers capable of storing from 1 to 4 frames at a >> reasonable price. > >The Pioneer LDV-8000 has a frame memory, so it handles still and other >special effects (step, fast forward/reverse, still with independent audio) >with CLV (I just tried it). >However, we are using CAV disks in order to support stills on older >machines such as the >LDV-4200 and the LC-V330 (autochanger). Our prototype system uses a >video digitizer (RasterOps 364) which puts the image on the Mac monitor. >This board also >can freeze the image, but in some situations we use a tv monitor, and the >player must freeze the image. > >The Pioneer manual says that in order to support CLV special effects the >disk must >be recorded with a second code. Our own disks and the Nat'l Geographic >disks seem to >have this; is this fairly standard? > >Mark We are using Pioneer LDV-8000s and they do indeed work fine with CLV discs. The extra code (I forget its name) is required to address the disc down to the frame level; otherwise, you can only search to the nearest second, I believe. It seems to be pretty standard to include the code. Authoring software is notoriously intolerant of the quirks of CLV--for example, one authoring package we had a heavy investment in would simply choke on any frame number higher than 65535. An unfortunate limitation on a disc with 108,000 frames... We got them to patch it in the search function, but from time to time one still finds cropping up the assumption that a short integer is all one will ever need as a frame number. Most annoying, especially as the software doesn't give you any obvious kind of error alert--it simply truncates the long integer into a short one (that is, gives you the number mod 65535) and goes its merry way. The original poster (Rick?) says there's a rumor of CLV units with frame grabbers--this implies that CLV units don't currently have them. Is this referring to "low-end players"? Just how "high-end" does a player have to be before having a frame-grabber (which is actually, as I tried to explain in an earlier posting, a function which DISABLES video pass-through--surely not that difficult to implement)? I have only worked with the 8000s, and am not really familiar with the functions of 4200s, 6000s, and so on... --K -- ........................................................................... : Kathy Strong : "Try our Hubble-Rita: just one shot, : : (Clouds moving slowly) : and everything's blurry" : : clouds@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu : --El Arroyo : :..........................................................................:
rjn@hpfcso.HP.COM (Bob Niland) (11/25/90)
re: > The original poster (Rick?) says there's a rumor of CLV units with > frame grabbers--this implies that CLV units don't currently have them. > Is this referring to "low-end players"? Just how "high-end" does a > player have to be before having a frame-grabber (which is actually, as > I tried to explain in an earlier posting, a function which DISABLES > video pass-through--surely not that difficult to implement)? I have > only worked with the 8000s, and am not really familiar with the > functions of 4200s, 6000s, and so on... The LD-V8000 may be the only player with true frame store. The lower-end Pioneer industrial players don't have it (although the '6000 may have field store). The '4200 has neither. No consumer players, including the $3500 Pioneer LD-S2, have frame store. Most priced above $700 have field store. Regards, Hewlett-Packard Bob Niland 3404 East Harmony Road Internet: rjn@hpfcrjn.FC.HP.COM Fort Collins UUCP: [hplabs|hpu*!hpfcse]!hpfcrjn!rjn CO 80525-9599
a544@mindlink.UUCP (Rick McCormack) (11/28/90)
Voila! I found a little more detail on what info goes onto a CD-XX disc. CD-V (CD-Video) 20 minustes of music PLUS 5 minutes of video with sound; the video is not full motion AT THIS TIME, because the CD specs can't handle the bandwidth. CD-I (CD-Interactive) a Sony-Philips development, using High Sierra encoding enhanced for more detail. Uses a special decoder based on Motorolas 68000 chip (to have been completed by this Fall). Currently, offers 128 color 10-frames/second video - that decoder will change this. Sony, Philips and Matsushita have licensed developer kits and hardware tools out in industry. these tools include run-time, source conversion, disc-building. The hardware consisted of a simulator to allow program testing on existing CD players. Price on this wonder was to be in the $500-1,000 range; my bet is more like $1,500 (all in US dollars - I am posting from Canada, home of the $0.85 dollar this morning). CD-XA (CD-eXtended Architecture) is an upgrade to CD-ROM. It incorporates CD-I enhanced graphics and audio capabilities to existing players, via a chip upgrade. (650 Megabyte= 16 hours audio in mono at a quality comparable to AM radio -- WOW! Won't Elvis fans be pleased?) DVI (Digital Video Interactive) offers full-motion interactive video using highly compressed images, and may de-rail CD-I development. Using SCSI at 12.5 megabytes per second, using the standard CD-ROM form factor (Hey! That means its the same size! Why didn't you say that? Cause no-one else says that. OH!) with 650 Megabytes of storage, you can expect 72 minutes of full-motion video. As an aside, a study in 1988 by Business Communications Co., indicated that by 1993, the market would be split as follows: videodisc players: 17.1% (such accuracy) CD-ROM: 40.1% CD-Video (CD-I and DVI): 33.5% This is for industry growth figures in business use. Any ideas if these figures have changed in two years? ______________________________________________________________ | Rick McCormack | IMAGISTICS BUSINESS THEATRE TECHNOLOGY | | Vancouver, BC | Information transfer - with a purpose. | | CANADA | ________________________________________ | | AOL: Rique | INTERACTIVE COMPREHENSIVE ENLIGHTENING | |________________|____________________________________________|
a1654@mindlink.UUCP (Michael Beck) (12/01/90)
In this discussion on CD-I, CD-V, etc., which are coming, no mention has been made of Commodores' CDTV which is available in limited release now. General release after Christmas. This machine is basically an Amiga 500 in a box that plays standard ISO-9660 CDs, CD audio and CD Graphic disks. It is designed to be completely interactive with a remote infrared control. Just some of the specs are a Sony/Philips type CD-ROM standard mode 1, mode 2. Video outputs: Analog RGB, Digital RGB Composite Video NTSC (RCA connector) component video Y-C(S connector for S-VHS and Hi8) RF modulated optional genlock capabilities via plug in module. Three-mode (CDTV, video source or mixed) under software control. 8X oversampling stereo sound Centronic parallel port RS-232 serial intereface External floppy drive interface Harewired alternative to IR for a keyboard, mouse, joystick 2 audio output ports (RCA type) MIDI in and out. Stereo headphone jack It is being sold at around $995.00 Canadian. Oh, and it has a DMA slot for SCSI, LAN, etc. Just proplr might be interested as this machine is available and will be out for 6-10 month before CD-I appears on the market. -- Michael Beck a1654@Mindlink.UUCP "So, like, whatever..."
rjn@hpfcso.HP.COM (Bob Niland) (12/02/90)
re: > Voila! I found a little more detail on what info goes onto a CD-XX > disc. CD-V (CD-Video) 20 minustes of music PLUS 5 minutes of video > with sound; the video is not full motion AT THIS TIME, because the CD > specs can't handle the bandwidth. If you are referring to the consumer 5-inch CDV media, this is not true. After the 20 minute audio segment near the inner hub, the CDV5 can contain just shy of 6 minutes of full-motion video. Combi players always play the video track first, then backspace to the audio-only (accompanied by a drop in rotation rate from ~1800 rpm to ~180 rpm). I have several of these discs in NTSC, and as far as I can tell, the only difference between CDV5 video and ordinary LD8 and LD12 LaserVision (now LaserDisc) standard video is that the CDV5 has ONLY digital sound (no FM analog sound). To my knowledge, no new CDV5 titles have been released in the last 18 months, and Polygram/Polydor (the major label in CDV5) has announced that they will do no more. Note also: early NTSC LD8 and LD12 digital sound releases often bear the "CD-Video" logo. Until Pioneer surrendered their trademark rights to the term "LaserDisc", PAL LD8s and LD12s with digital sound were also called "CDV". (Since, unlike NTSC discs, PAL discs can't have both digital and analog sound, the older analog PAL discs were called "LV".) I'm told there is also a 5-inch technology called "CVD", about which I know nothing. Regards, Hewlett-Packard Bob Niland 3404 East Harmony Road Internet: rjn@hpfcrjn.FC.HP.COM Fort Collins UUCP: [hplabs|hpu*!hpfcse]!hpfcrjn!rjn CO 80525-9599
greg@tcnz2.tcnz.co.nz (Greg Calkin) (12/03/90)
In article <3977@mindlink.UUCP> a544@mindlink.UUCP (Rick McCormack) writes: >DVI (Digital Video Interactive) offers full-motion interactive video using >highly compressed images, and may de-rail CD-I development. Using SCSI at 12.5 >megabytes per second, using the standard CD-ROM form factor (Hey! That means >its the same size! Why didn't you say that? Cause no-one else says that. >OH!) with 650 Megabytes of storage, you can expect 72 minutes of full-motion >video. 650M / 12.5 MBs = 52 sec 650M / 1.25 MBs = 520 sec ^^^^^^^^ normal scsi 72 min * 60 sec * 1.25MBs = 5400 Meg 72 min * 60 sec * 12.5MBs = 54000 Meg 650Meg / (72 * 60) ~= 150Kps Where do you get 72 minutes of full video from ? -- Greg Calkin, Systems Engineer and Dreamer (greg@tcnz.co.nz) Thomas Cook N.Z. Limited, PO Box 24, Auckland CPO, New Zealand, Ph (09)-793920 Disclaimer : Would you buy a used car from someone with these opinions ?
kdarling@hobbes.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) (12/09/90)
> In this discussion on CD-I, CD-V, etc., which are coming, no mention > has been made of Commodores' CDTV which is available in limited release now. > General release after Christmas. > > It is being sold at around $995.00 Canadian. I'd heard that it was previewed at a Canadian Amiga show, but won't be available for US sale until months after its release in Europe 2Q '91. Have you seen it in a store? Commodore originally announced that CDTV would be available with a "hundred" discs for the Christmas season. They missed, which is understandable. But if CD-I comes out in stores before next season, then I don't see CDTV being able to make it in the mass market. That is, it'd be hard to visualize the general buying public going into an audio-video store, and selecting a Commodore unit (whose discs would be incompatible with anything else)... instead of choosing from a shelf full of other well-known brands (Matsushita, Yamaha, Pioneer, Sony, Philips, et al) which _do_ all play the same discs... and which have better graphics to boot. I think Commodore was very clever to try to jump ahead of the coming CD-I bandwagon, and few if any other computers could've been used to do so. But CDTV is pretty much pre-doomed, I'd think. At best, it'll serve as a "feeler" for public reaction to interactive TV... at worst, it'll make a lot of people mad when they realize they bought a "loner". best - kev | Kevin Darling | Internet: kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu | OS-9 & | 919-872-7986 anytime | CIS: 76703,4227 Delphi:OS9ugpres | 680x(x)
hugh@dciem.dciem.dnd.ca (Hugh D. Gamble) (12/13/90)
In article <1990Dec9.082724.22804@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu> kdarling@hobbes.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling) writes: >> In this discussion on CD-I, CD-V, etc., which are coming, no mention >> has been made of Commodores' CDTV which is available in limited release now. >> General release after Christmas. >> >> It is being sold at around $995.00 Canadian. > >I'd heard that it was previewed at a Canadian Amiga show, but won't >be available for US sale until months after its release in Europe 2Q '91. Sounds right. It was *previewed* at the Toronto World of Commodore Amiga show. Expected Canadian list price when it comes out is "Under $1,500.00 CDN" >Commodore originally announced that CDTV would be available with >a "hundred" discs for the Christmas season. They missed, which is A lot of the discs will be ports of existing Amiga s/w and cd-roms for other computers. >understandable. But if CD-I comes out in stores before next season, >then I don't see CDTV being able to make it in the mass market. I won't touch this one, it could mushroom :-) Don't write off CDTV yet. Let's see what happens when it comes out. > | Kevin Darling | Internet: kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu | OS-9 & > | 919-872-7986 anytime | CIS: 76703,4227 Delphi:OS9ugpres | 680x(x) -- # Hugh D. Gamble, NTT Systems Inc. (at DCIEM (416) 635-2156) Std. Disclaimers # # hugh@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca, hugh@kink.UUCP # # ** Neural net; holds your mind hour after hour. ** #