TIKIT@USC-ECLB.ARPA (02/11/84)
From: TIKIT <TIKIT@USC-ECLB.ARPA> I have been watching and reading the Macintosh and Lisa info for quite some time now. I have a few observations and opinions I will throw into the pot concerning Lisa. I have been looking for a small, cheap computer system that I can run Unix on (and provides a large linear address space, none of that overlay or segmentation crap) and saw the Lisa 2 as a viable computer for this. I have heard of two vendors that sell Unix for the Lisa. One of which I have investigated rather thoroughly. Unipress Inc. distributes Uniplus+ unix compatible with unix system 3. I have an outstanding request for information on the other vendor on Arpa but have heard nothing yet. Here are some facts about the Lisa: * The Lisa runs at a clock rate just over 5 MHz. The Macintosh is just over 7.5 MHz. * The Lisa is software compatible if you use an emulator program called MacAlike. * To run the Lisa software you must add 512K bytes of memory then purchase the software, one piece at a time. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but I conclude from this: 1. The Lisa is slow. 2. To run the standard Lisa software means the purchase of much more memory than comes standard (twice what it comes with, $ 1400 worth). 3. It appears that being Macintosh compatible means running VERY slow (slow clock rate, emulation software). 4. Its going to be expensive to run Lisa software on Lisa (due to the seperate package and sales approach of Lisa software). Soooo, forget Apple Lisa software and Macintosh compatibility! Next, Uniplus+ unix. Facts about Uniplus+ unix. * Runs on Lisa 2 with no extra memory. * Needs the 10 MByte disk (Lisa 2/10) and leaves little for the user. * Treats the display as an adm3 terminal. * Troff does not interface with the bit-mapped display or Imagewriter printer. * Emacs does not run on it (yet). * The bit-mapped display (and all those lovely routines in ROM) is not easily accessible from C. * The C compared well in an earlier benchmark on info-micro using the Lisa 1. * The Bourne (sp?) shell has(had?) a severe bug in it. * It got a positive reaction from a user at Apple except for the adm3-like characteristics and the bug in the shell. Conclusion: 1. The adm3 terminal is really stupid! No insert line, delete line, insert character, delete character, etc... 2. Of what use is a bit-mapped display and high-efficiency ROM routines if I must hack into them? 3. Sure would like to see troff generate something that could be printed and viewed by the Lisa. Finale..... Oh well. I guess I can wait ANOTHER year. Is there no end to this? When will these manufacturers figure it out and produce something that works and works well? I guess I will try the ATT machine (if it ever comes out). Stewart French Texas Instruments tikit @ usc-eclb -------
FISCHER@RUTGERS.ARPA (02/16/84)
From: Ron <FISCHER@RUTGERS.ARPA>
Here are some facts about the Lisa:
* The Lisa runs at a clock rate just over 5 MHz. The Macintosh is
just over 7.5 MHz.
Yes, but accesses to MacIntosh RAM are interleaved with video refresh
accesses, yielding an average MacSpeed of about 6Mhz.
Now, correct me if I am wrong, but I conclude from this:
1. The Lisa is slow.
Well, sure, but on a more or less "for personal use" machine this is
wonderfully fast (I have one, it is pounds of fun). If cannot justify
buying a personal machine without Dec-20 performance for your desktop
then you may have to wait more than 2 years...
* The Lisa is software compatible if you use an emulator program called
MacAlike.
...
3. It appears that being Macintosh compatible means running VERY slow
(slow clock rate, emulation software).
I do not think so. Unless the emulator is written badly it will just
configure Lisa's mmu (a nice custom design by Apple) to present linear
memory and setup the instruction traps which Mac uses to perform some
system functions. Not really slower (perhaps by 1Mhz).
4. Its going to be expensive to run Lisa software on Lisa (due to the
seperate package and sales approach of Lisa software).
I believe a fully configured system running the Desktop is about $8500.
Facts about Uniplus+ unix.
...
* Needs the 10 MByte disk (Lisa 2/10) and leaves little for the user.
You could do what we did: buy a diskless Lisa and get a Corvus 20 Meg
drive for it. UniPress will tell you all about the configuration.
Requires the parallel port and a cable. Is faster than the Apple
drives and has twice as much storage. There is also a drive availible
from a company called SUNOL, which is 40Meg, and still faster.
Although of two units UniPress has shipped one was DOA. The Corvus
seems more reliable.
* Treats the display as an adm3 terminal.
Yes, this is annoying, but the screen access is very fast (seems like
9600 baud, screen is about 38 by 85 chars), is not too annoying.
* Troff does not interface with the bit-mapped display or Imagewriter
printer.
There is a battle going on at Apple as to who will port the window
manager software (ToolKit) to Unix. I offered to do this for them
myself, in return for documentation and a free copy.
* Emacs does not run on it (yet).
Patently false. I have Gosling Emacs, supplied by UniPress, running
now.
* The bit-mapped display (and all those lovely routines in ROM)
is not easily accessible from C.
I am able to access the bitmap. No support software, but you could
write what you needed if you had the time.
Conclusion:
2. Of what use is a bit-mapped display and high-efficiency ROM
routines if I must hack into them?
Yes, my feelings too. Unix is not high priority at Apple and
apparently the people at Apple managing the ToolKit project wear white
greasepaint, red rubber noses, red hair and work at the circus
part time.
One interesting thing to note is that the Lisa could do virtual memory
if a 68010 replaced the 68000, and the software was ported.
(ron)
-------blk@sytek.UUCP (Brian L. Kahn) (02/21/84)
I thought the Lisa 2 has a faster clock. 5 MHz is for the Lisa 1, no? B<
gregr@tekig1.UUCP (Greg Rogers) (02/29/84)
The Lisa 2 also has a 5 Mhz clock. The only hardware changes from a Lisa 1 to a Lisa 2 are ROM changes, the floppy disks, and cosmetics. The software is also due some speedup changes but not the uP.