martin@littlei.UUCP (martin) (06/30/88)
With all the discussion recently about unix for 386 flavorings I decided
to do some price getting. Bell Tech has been advertising Unix in almost
all of the Unix trade rags. The add says "UNIX for as low as $145". After
hearing about the price hikes for Microport and other vendors, it sounded
cheap. I called the folks up and asked them how much for just a software
distribution (not the X package or additional non-v.3.? packages). They
told me $235. I asked them what I could get for the advertised price of
$145 and they said "Just the AT&T license". Well that does alot of good!
I can't insert the license into the PC and boot it... (humor). Currently
they are only shipping v.3.0 with 3.1 due out at the end of July.
I thought that I would pass this on to fellow netters.
---- These are the thoughts of myself no my employer ----
_/_ |
______ __. __ / o ____ | textronix!reed!littlei!zeus:martin
/ / / <_(_/|_/ (_<__<_/ / < |sl@van-bc.UUCP (pri=-10 Stuart Lynne) (07/01/88)
In article <294@gandalf.littlei.UUCP> martin@littlei.UUCP (martin) writes: >With all the discussion recently about unix for 386 flavorings I decided >to do some price getting. Bell Tech has been advertising Unix in almost >told me $235. I asked them what I could get for the advertised price of >$145 and they said "Just the AT&T license". Well that does alot of good! >I can't insert the license into the PC and boot it... (humor). Currently >they are only shipping v.3.0 with 3.1 due out at the end of July. What it is good for is letting you only pay for the distribution costs once if you need to put it on more than one machine. I.e. when buying for a network your cost is: $ = (n-1) * $145 + $235 Or a net savings of $90 per machine. You only take delivery of one physical copy but get to install it as many times as you have paid for. Sounds like a good deal for larger companies or universities. -- Stuart.Lynne@wimsey.bc.ca {ubc-cs,uunet}!van-bc!sl Vancouver,BC,604-937-7532
dar@belltec.UUCP (Dimitri Rotow) (07/06/88)
In article <294@gandalf.littlei.UUCP>, martin@littlei.UUCP (martin) writes: > With all the discussion recently about unix for 386 flavorings I decided > to do some price getting. Bell Tech has been advertising Unix in almost > all of the Unix trade rags. The add says "UNIX for as low as $145". After > hearing about the price hikes for Microport and other vendors, it sounded > cheap. I called the folks up and asked them how much for just a software > distribution (not the X package or additional non-v.3.? packages). They > told me $235. I asked them what I could get for the advertised price of > $145 and they said "Just the AT&T license". Well that does alot of good! > I can't insert the license into the PC and boot it... (humor). Currently > they are only shipping v.3.0 with 3.1 due out at the end of July. > The pricing makes sense if (like most of our customers) you are buying more than one copy of UNIX. If you are bringing up 10 machines, you only need one copy of distribution media ($45) and ten licenses at $145 each. This saves you $450. You would prefer we charged you for ten copies of media you don't need? Note that our $145 price includes ALL of UNIX as defined in SVID, including RFS, TLI, and Streams, all of the development tools, link kit, vi, and much other wonderful stuff. Note also that in the above scenario you don't need to purchase 10 copies of (redundant) UNIX documen- tation. Most people would buy one set for reference, a few extra System Administration guides, a few extra User or Programmer References, and save a few thousand dollars. Source code to the device drivers (Interactive's 386/ix AT device drivers) is still only $5,000 or only $250 to universities qualifying for the free UNIX deal from AT&T. Distribution on cartridge tape is the same price as on floppy media. Enjoy! - Dimitri Rotow, Bell Technologies
stacy@mcl.UUCP (Stacy L. Millions) (07/11/88)
In article <236@belltec.UUCP>, dar@belltec.UUCP (Dimitri Rotow) writes: > In article <294@gandalf.littlei.UUCP>, martin@littlei.UUCP (martin) writes: > > ... I called the folks up and asked them how much for just a software > > distribution (not the X package or additional non-v.3.? packages). They > > told me $235. I asked them what I could get for the advertised price of > > $145 and they said "Just the AT&T license". Well that does alot of good! > > ... > > The pricing makes sense if (like most of our customers) you are buying more > than one copy of UNIX. If you are bringing up 10 machines, you only need > one copy of distribution media ($45) and ten licenses at $145 each. This > saves you $450... Well I have checked and double checked my math, and every time I add 45 + 145 I get 190, not 235. So which is correct. It is nice to know that extra lisc. are available, it just might help me change my mind about selling your product. It still doesn't change the fact that your adds are misleading. I realise that you want to advertise your lowest price, but when you say "UNIX SYSTEM V RELEASE 3 FOR 80386 FROM $145 COMPLETE!", I don't expect the software to be an option (kind of like a base model computer where the processor is not included in the price :-). -- "IBM Personal System/2. It's like having 256,000 crayons in one box." For those of you who are still doing your business reports with crayons! S. L. Millions ..!uunet!mcl!stacy
paula@bcsaic.UUCP (Paul Allen) (07/15/88)
In article <236@belltec.UUCP> dar@belltec.UUCP (Dimitri Rotow) writes: >In article <294@gandalf.littlei.UUCP>, martin@littlei.UUCP (martin) writes: >> [...] Bell Tech has been advertising Unix in almost >> all of the Unix trade rags. The add says "UNIX for as low as $145". >> [...] I called the folks up and asked them how much for just a software >> distribution (not the X package or additional non-v.3.? packages). They >> told me $235. I asked them what I could get for the advertised price of >> $145 and they said "Just the AT&T license". Well that does alot of good! >> I can't insert the license into the PC and boot it... (humor). >> [...] > >The pricing makes sense if (like most of our customers) you are buying more >than one copy of UNIX. If you are bringing up 10 machines, you only need >one copy of distribution media ($45) and ten licenses at $145 each. This >saves you $450. You would prefer we charged you for ten copies of media >you don't need? Note that our $145 price includes ALL of UNIX as defined >in SVID, including RFS, TLI, and Streams, all of the development tools, >link kit, vi, and much other wonderful stuff. > [stuff about how much you can save by buying multiple copies deleted] >- Dimitri Rotow, Bell Technologies I'm an individual, not a corporation. I would like to run unix on the biggest, fastest 386 box I can fit into my budget. I'm going to buy one copy. Your ad (I've seen it in the June Unix Review and the latest Dr. Dobb's) screams (well, 23 point type, anyway!) that I can get Unix SVR3 for a 386 *complete* for $145. Now that I know what to look for, I see that one of the available options is a 'media kit'. Sheesh! Does the $235 price include any documentation? Come on, Dimitri! Bell Tech's price is low enough that you don't have to resort to misleading advertising like this! I think it's fine that you've unbundled the pricing so corporate buyers can save kilobucks, but your ad doesn't make it clear that $145 doesn't buy me anything useful. I prefer dealing with vendors who are straight with me, rather than squirming around on the price. Paul Allen [It just occurred to me that, since Bell Tech is willing to sell me just a license, I should be able to copy a friend's floppies and documentation. That would give me a licensed running complete Unix for $145, just like the ad says! 1/2 :-) ] -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Paul L. Allen | paula@boeing.com Boeing Advanced Technology Center | ...!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!bcsaic!paula
karl@sugar.UUCP (Karl Lehenbauer) (07/16/88)
In article <6475@bcsaic.UUCP>, paula@bcsaic.UUCP (Paul Allen) writes: > I'm an individual, not a corporation. I would like to run unix on the > biggest, fastest 386 box I can fit into my budget. I'm going to buy one > copy. Your ad (I've seen it in the June Unix Review and the latest Dr. > Dobb's) screams (well, 23 point type, anyway!) that I can get Unix SVR3 > for a 386 *complete* for $145. Now that I know what to look for, I see > that one of the available options is a 'media kit'. Sheesh! Does the > $235 price include any documentation? I paid $320, I think it was, for unlimited user 386, media kit and the sysadmin manuals. I don't think that's bad, not at all, particularly after buying Microport 286 unlimited user, DOS merge, nroff, source development, upgrade package, support, &c and didn't get squat with respect to bug fixes (two years of serial driver hangs and panics). Granted, the ad is a bit misleading. Nonetheless, it appears to me that one could buy the license from Bell Tech and borrow the disks from a friend. (Don't have a friend? Try bathing more often :-) It *is* nice that they will sell a license without the media. I'm going to be buying one for the second 386, and $145 is a steal, especially since it all seems to work. -- -- karl@sugar.uu.net aka uunet!sugar!karl
sl@van-bc.UUCP (pri=-10 Stuart Lynne) (07/17/88)
In article <6475@bcsaic.UUCP> paula@bcsaic.UUCP (Paul Allen) writes: }In article <236@belltec.UUCP> dar@belltec.UUCP (Dimitri Rotow) writes: }>In article <294@gandalf.littlei.UUCP>, martin@littlei.UUCP (martin) writes: }you've unbundled the pricing so corporate buyers can save kilobucks, but }your ad doesn't make it clear that $145 doesn't buy me anything useful. I }prefer dealing with vendors who are straight with me, rather than }squirming around on the price. } }Paul Allen } }[It just occurred to me that, since Bell Tech is willing to sell me just }a license, I should be able to copy a friend's floppies and }documentation. That would give me a licensed running complete Unix for }$145, just like the ad says! 1/2 :-) ] That's right. And you can run down to your local computer literate book store and pick up the Prentice Hall manuals. So Bell Tech is indeed offerring a fairly innovative service by selling you exactly what you need instead of forcing you to purchase a bundled package with stuff you don't need. -- Stuart.Lynne@wimsey.bc.ca {ubc-cs,uunet}!van-bc!sl Vancouver,BC,604-937-7532
wes@obie.UUCP (Barnacle Wes) (07/17/88)
In article <6475@bcsaic.UUCP>, paula@bcsaic.UUCP (Paul Allen) writes: > [...much discussion about belltech's pricing in magazine adds, and > licensing prices, etc...] > > It just occurred to me that, since Bell Tech is willing to sell me just > a license, I should be able to copy a friend's floppies and > documentation. That would give me a licensed running complete Unix for > $145, just like the ad says! 1/2 :-) Here's a situation for you: my brother and a friend are both looking at buying 386 boxes with Unix for the O.S. I have been looking at 386 motherboards to upgrade Obie with. If the three of us buy three licenses and one distribution kit, we still have three valid copies of Unix. You may be able to take advantage of this too. Wes Peters P.S. - We'll probably all end up with ISC Unix, since my brother works on that at work - source and all. Be nice to be your own bug fix departement, now wouldn't it? No, wait - don't answer that. -- {hpda, uwmcsd1}!sp7040!obie!wes "Happiness lies in being priviledged to work hard for long hours in doing whatever you think is worth doing." -- Robert A. Heinlein --
dar@belltec.UUCP (Dimitri Rotow) (07/19/88)
In article <6475@bcsaic.UUCP>, paula@bcsaic.UUCP (Paul Allen) writes: > [ ... summarizes pricing comments & replies ...] > > I'm an individual, not a corporation. I would like to run unix on the > biggest, fastest 386 box I can fit into my budget. I'm going to buy one > copy. Your ad (I've seen it in the June Unix Review and the latest Dr. > Dobb's) screams (well, 23 point type, anyway!) that I can get Unix SVR3 > for a 386 *complete* for $145. Now that I know what to look for, I see > that one of the available options is a 'media kit'. Sheesh! Does the > $235 price include any documentation? > > [It just occurred to me that, since Bell Tech is willing to sell me just > a license, I should be able to copy a friend's floppies and > documentation. That would give me a licensed running complete Unix for > $145, just like the ad says! 1/2 :-) ] > Your right, we do emphasize the *complete* part in the ad ... The reason we do so is that our publication of UNIX is the *only* UNIX you can buy which is genuinely complete and uncut ... the usage of "complete" was intended to refer to the fact that you get *all* of UNIX, including *all* of the development tools, RFS, Streams, TLI, and everything else. I think that's unique enough to want to emphasize in an ad, but not at the cost of risking people getting a misleading impression. If the flames continue we'll change the ad ... any suggestions on how to get across the idea that you get *all* of UNIX whilst retaining the disaggregation of media, license, and docs? We'd be happy to sell you just a license, except that you cannot copy your friend's diskettes [AT&T's rules, not ours]. Since AT&T imposes profound restrictions on the physical duplication of UNIX media we believe that we must sell at least one copy of physical media to each licensee in order to have a defensible case in court with AT&T. The actual license passes with the CPU and is granted you by signing a license agreement or opening up a shrink-wrapped agreement in jurisdictions where such agreements are valid. Under the right circumstances, two or more people could do a joint buy for target machines which are owned by the nominee actually purchasing such machines and code, and then transfer titles to the CPU's and code within the group (kind of a long way to go to save $45, but valid!). - Dimitri Rotow
brian@cbw1.UUCP (Brian Cuthie) (07/21/88)
It seems like the only issue here is how people define "complete." I have to wonder how long this argument can go on. Personally I prefer to think of "complete" as being "everything." Obviously Bell-Tech and their supporters think complete has a different definition. I don't know that there is any point in wasting 10k/day in net bandwidth in obscured arguments over the definition of complete. Just my $.02 worth :-) (please direct flames to alt.flame -- I don't subscribe to that news group) -brian -- Brian D. Cuthie uunet!umbc3!cbw1!brian Columbia, MD brian@umbc3.umd.edu "Captain, Captain! All the stars have gone out!" "No, you fool, you've leaned on the button. Turn the viewer back on!"
rcd@ico.ISC.COM (Dick Dunn) (07/21/88)
> > ... Your ad (I've seen it in the June Unix Review and the latest Dr. > > Dobb's) screams (well, 23 point type, anyway!) that I can get Unix SVR3 > > for a 386 *complete* for $145... [but a note that this doesn't include media containing any software...] > > [It just occurred to me that, since Bell Tech is willing to sell me just > > a license, I should be able to copy a friend's floppies... This was just an attempt to find a way to get the $145 UNIX for $145... ...To which Dmitri Rotow (of Bell Tech) replied: > We'd be happy to sell you just a license, except that you cannot copy your > friend's diskettes [AT&T's rules, not ours]. Since AT&T imposes profound > restrictions on the physical duplication of UNIX media we believe that we > must sell at least one copy of physical media to each licensee in order to > have a defensible case in court with AT&T... But then you've quite nearly said that you won't sell UNIX for a 386 for $145. I would think this would put you in a precarious legal situation too, wouldn't it? What do you do with the guy who says, "Here's my $145; gimme a UNIX!"? If you tell him that he can't really have it for that amount of money, he's going to be unhappy no matter what, and he might come after you for misleading him. It's a sort of flip on the joke where the guy sees a sign that says something like "Buy one hamburger for $1, get the second one half price," walks up with 50 cents and says, "Here...I want the second burger." You've advertised the "quantity price" without giving the initial cost... like specifying a line where you've given the slope but not the inter- cept. But Rotow also offered: >...If the flames continue > we'll change the ad ... any suggestions on how to get across the idea that > you get *all* of UNIX whilst retaining the disaggregation of media, license, > and docs? Hey, I'm glad they're listening! How about something like "first license $xxx, additional licenses only $yyy, documentation $zzz per set"? If it's really important to establish a price comparison with your competi- tors (which I suspect is the problem), why not do exactly that? That is, let your ad show what we'd pay for one complete system from you versus your competitors. Since you're showing a bundled price, take the piece prices of your competitors' systems and add them up to get what's equivalent to one of yours, then show the figures...maybe show single-system and multi- system prices to indicate your $145 increment, but don't play the "wheels extra" game. A good price for a software system with "software extra" is like a bargain on flashlight batteries with "batteries not included." -- Dick Dunn UUCP: {ncar,nbires}!ico!rcd (303)449-2870 ...Are you making this up as you go along?
larry@focsys.UUCP (Larry Williamson) (07/21/88)
In article <243@belltec.UUCP> dar@belltec.UUCP (Dimitri Rotow) writes: > >Your right, we do emphasize the *complete* part in the ad ... The reason we >do so is that our publication of UNIX is the *only* UNIX you can buy which >is genuinely complete and uncut ... the usage of "complete" was intended to >refer to the fact that you get *all* of UNIX, including *all* of the >development tools, RFS, Streams, TLI, and everything else. > [...] >- Dimitri Rotow Complete? You don't get Nroff, or Troff, no online man pages either. But I supose that these are considered a part of some other "option". I find it interesting that the online documentation for the X windows package that comes with BT's system uses a 3rd party nroff package (Elan's eroff). -- Larry Williamson Focus Automation Systems UUCP: watmath!focsys!larry 608 Weber St. N, Waterloo, Ontario N2V 1K4 +1 519 746 4918
karl@ddsw1.UUCP (Karl Denninger) (07/21/88)
In article <243@belltec.UUCP> dar@belltec.UUCP (Dimitri Rotow) writes: >In article <6475@bcsaic.UUCP>, paula@bcsaic.UUCP (Paul Allen) writes: >> [ ... summarizes pricing comments & replies ...] >> >> [It just occurred to me that, since Bell Tech is willing to sell me just >> a license, I should be able to copy a friend's floppies and >> documentation. That would give me a licensed running complete Unix for >> $145, just like the ad says! 1/2 :-) ] > >We'd be happy to sell you just a license, except that you cannot copy your >friend's diskettes [AT&T's rules, not ours]. Since AT&T imposes profound >restrictions on the physical duplication of UNIX media we believe that we >must sell at least one copy of physical media to each licensee in order to >have a defensible case in court with AT&T. Then your ad is not only misleading, but knowingly misleading. In many circles this would be construed as fraud. If your firm will not sell just the license to a single purchaser, then you cannot get "REAL UNIX" in any way, shape or form as an individual for $145.00. I *must*, due to AT&T and your policy, buy the media kit as well -- which has an additional cost. As a result, you should change your advertising -- to reflect reality. If you require that a purchaser buy at least one copy of the physical media, your FIRST COST is $145 + media --- not $145. Stating it any other way is dishonest. What would be legit, and honest, would be to say something like: "REAL UNIX for $xxxx (145 + media cost) -- with additional licenses at $145." This misleads no one. Your current advertising, especially in light of the statement that you require at least one copy of media to be purchased, is extremely misleading and dishonest. Please change it. -- Karl Denninger (ddsw1!karl) Data: (312) 566-8912, Voice: (312) 566-8910 Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality solutions at a fair price"
paula@bcsaic.UUCP (Paul Allen) (07/22/88)
In article <243@belltec.UUCP> dar@belltec.UUCP (Dimitri Rotow) writes: >In article <6475@bcsaic.UUCP>, paula@bcsaic.UUCP (Paul Allen) writes: >> [In which I complained about Bell Tech's recent Unix ad, which I >> perceived to be misleading.] > >Your right, we do emphasize the *complete* part in the ad ... The reason we >do so is that our publication of UNIX is the *only* UNIX you can buy which >is genuinely complete and uncut ... Bell Tech is to be applauded for their aggressive pricing of UNIX licenses. However, *complete* implies to me that I get everything I need. > ... any suggestions on how to get across the idea that >you get *all* of UNIX whilst retaining the disaggregation of media, license, >and docs? Sure. Just add a statement to the effect that license, media, and docs are separately priced and that at least one media kit is required. You wouldn't have to expand the amount of verbiage by much, since you already have a sentence listing the available options. The surprise for me was to learn that the $145 price for complete UNIX didn't include media. I don't think it would hurt sales if the ad made that point clear. Your price is still very attractive. >We'd be happy to sell you just a license, except that you cannot copy your >friend's diskettes [AT&T's rules, not ours]. Thanks for the clarification. I'll budget $300 or so for my eventual UNIX buy. Paul -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Paul L. Allen | paula@boeing.com Boeing Advanced Technology Center | ...!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!bcsaic!paula
bowles@lll-crg.llnl.gov (Jeff Bowles) (07/26/88)
In article <192@focsys.UUCP> larry@focsys.UUCP (Larry Williamson) writes: >In article <243@belltec.UUCP> dar@belltec.UUCP (Dimitri Rotow) writes: >> >>Your right, we do emphasize the *complete* part in the ad... > >Complete? > >You don't get Nroff, or Troff, no online man pages either. But I >supose that these are considered a part of some other "option". Hold on, there - the nroff/troff support disappeared from *ALL* releases of System V beginning with System V Release 2.0 in 1984, because of the availability "as an add-on" of the new "device-independent troff." It was easier to support (and more profitable to sell separately) this way. I would blame Bell Tech for a lot of things, but unbundling nroff/troff isn't one of them. Jeff Bowles ps. I'll emphasize that "Elan" has a fine nroff/troff....
df@nud.UUCP (Dale Farnsworth) (07/29/88)
Brian Cuthie (brian@cbw1.UMD.EDU) writes: > > It seems like the only issue here is how people define "complete." I have > to wonder how long this argument can go on. Personally I prefer to think > of "complete" as being "everything." Obviously Bell-Tech and their > supporters think complete has a different definition. I don't know that > there is any point in wasting 10k/day in net bandwidth in obscured arguments > over the definition of complete. Bell Technologies includes "everything" that is included in AT&T's System V Release 3. System V Release 3 not include nroff/troff or on-line man pages. It does have an on-line help facility and many other nice features. Bell Tech provides "complete" System V Release 3. If, by your definition, that is not "complete" UNIX, then AT&T should be flamed, not Bell Technologies. -Dale -- Dale Farnsworth 602-438-3092 noao!nud!df