[comp.unix.microport] Microport Buyout

eric@egsner.UUCP (Eric Schnoebelen) (04/07/89)

In article <310@feedme.UUCP> doug@feedme.UUCP (Doug Salot) writes:
-
-In article <96729@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> plocher@sun.COM (John Plocher) writes:
->	I tried to obtain the legal rights to Microport's driver source
->	before I left, but because of SEC regulations about insider trading
->	I would have had to pay "full asset value" for them, and I didn't
->	have the ~$250K that it would have taken. :-(
-
-I might be willing to contribute a few $K and some engineering resources
-if someone were to negotiate a Microport buyout and form a limited
-partnership.  A global support network comprised of Microport users,
-anyone?

And in article <292@visenix.UUCP> beattie@visenix.UUCP (Brian Beattie) [
following up to the above ] writes:
-
-I might be able to do likewise.
-

	Well, folks, I have been thinking about doing just such a thing.
The only problem is that I have only the barest knowledge about how to
do such a thing.   The things that I do know are:

        1) To get the capital to finance such a purchase ( on the order
of a couple million, trying to find out exactly how much right now ), We
would also need a well defined pre-existing team, with proven records in
a field like this ( e.g. operating systems ) as well a good management
team.  [ I'm a good programmer, and I love playing with operating
systems, but I don't know beans about management..  ]

        2) The buy-out could be leveraged/phased in.  What that means is
that we wouldn't have to put all of the purchase price out up front, we
could pay for the company over a period of a two or three years.  To do
this, it needs to be a friendly purchase, and this may not be possible
with a company in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.


	The problems/questions are:

	1) where do we get the "known" names on the technical team?

        2) where do we get the capital?  ( presumably from
ourselves/venture capitalists )

        3) What do we do with once we have it?  ( I was thinking of
purchasing the name, and all the licenses that Microport has, and moving
it to Dallas, since that is where I am currently, but what about the
current employees, etc )

        4) How and where do we set up the parent corporation?  ( again,
I was thinking Texas, but that's because I am here...  )

Comments anyone?

-- 
Eric Schnoebelen
egsner!eric@texbell.swbt.com			...!texbell!egsner!eric
egs@u-word.dallas.tx.us				...!killer!u-word!egs

doug@feedme.UUCP (Doug Salot) (04/08/89)

In article <237@egsner.UUCP> eric@egsner.UUCP (Eric Schnoebelen) writes:
[about buying out Microport]
>	Well, folks, I have been thinking about doing just such a thing.
>The only problem is that I have only the barest knowledge about how to
>do such a thing.

It's unlikely you'll get any interest from investors unless you've got
a damn near foolproof plan to make the new and improved Microport succeed.
A good place to start would be an analysis of why Microport failed.  I
doubt it was simply because they were understaffed in the tech support
department.  They should have had good cash flow, why didn't they?  How
did they get so deep in debt?  What was Televideo's role in their demise,
if any?

An analysis of the market would also be useful.  Is there actually a
UNIX market?  Personally, I doubt that anybody but AT&T, and possibly
SCO, will be able to make money directly from selling System V O/S's.
Microport was (is?) little more than a reseller.  As soon as an 80386
hardware vendors figure out that by giving away UNIX, they can sell
more hardware, there won't be much use for mere UNIX resellers.  It
looks like Everex may have already started doing this.  It'll be
interesting to see how hard they push.

Where would the new Microport fit in considering that Everex (and
Dell?) will probably have the low end market cornered, AT&T will
probably get the corporate accounts, ISC will get a share (plus
income from VP/ix and other licensing), SCO has a good chunk of
the VAR and end-user base covered, and places like Bell Technologies
exist in specialty markets.

>	The problems/questions are:
>
>	1) where do we get the "known" names on the technical team?

I don't know about "known", but knowlegable people are busy and
expensive.  Merely gifted programmers are a dime a dozen.  The
GNU guys already have the doing-it-for-love market cornered.

>   2) where do we get the capital?

Maybe Bush's 1000 points of light are looking for investment
opportunities?  I (and others, I imagine) would gladly fork over
some dough based on a good looking prospectus and the possibility
of direct participation in business activities.

>   3) What do we do with once we have it?

The $65536 question.  Certainly nobody would want to buy something
important from a company run by a 1000 pointy heads.  Maybe we
could sell timeshare slots for access to the UNIX source code. "The
TTY driver doesn't work on your Conan/AT?  You can diddle the code
Wednesdays from 6am-11am in July.  $100 for this lifetime privelege."


>        4) How and where do we set up the parent corporation?  ( again,
>I was thinking Texas, but that's because I am here...  )

Parent corporation?  You think we're a bunch of kids here?  Set it
up anywhere you could get a dozen people to work full time for nothing
for the year or so before the company shows a profit.  Texas sounds
perfect. :-)

>Comments anyone?

heh.

>-- 
>Eric Schnoebelen
>egsner!eric@texbell.swbt.com			...!texbell!egsner!eric
>egs@u-word.dallas.tx.us				...!killer!u-word!egs
-- 
Doug Salot || doug@feedme.UUCP || ...{zardoz,dhw68k}!feedme!doug

john@stiatl.UUCP (John DeArmond) (04/09/89)

In article <237@egsner.UUCP> eric@egsner.UUCP (Eric Schnoebelen) writes:
>
>In article <310@feedme.UUCP> doug@feedme.UUCP (Doug Salot) writes:
>-
>-In article <96729@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> plocher@sun.COM (John Plocher) writes:
>->	I tried to obtain the legal rights to Microport's driver source
>->	before I left, but because of SEC regulations about insider trading
>->	I would have had to pay "full asset value" for them, and I didn't
>->	have the ~$250K that it would have taken. :-(
>-
>-I might be willing to contribute a few $K and some engineering resources
>-if someone were to negotiate a Microport buyout and form a limited
>-partnership.  A global support network comprised of Microport users,
>-anyone?

WEll, it's fun to speculate about this but let's look at Microport 
as businessmen.   Microport went bankrupt; ie, failed.  Failure always
has a cause.  Let's list some possible faults with Microport.

*  Pretty much standard Unix - little value added, crowded market.
*  Fairly buggy
*  Poor tech support (fixable but reputation would remain)
*  very poor attitude toward user support (same as above)

Of these, the problem with reputation is the worst.  Considering that one
can buy a source license for PC-type unix from AT&T for about $80,000 (as
of last fall when I checked), the only other assets Microport would have
to offer would be its customer base and its good will.   As of late, the
customer base has been shrinking and the good will is approaching zero.
You'd be better off just to buy a license from at&t and start over.

Now lets look at the financing.  There are several ways to raise money,
among them

*  venture capital
*  bank loans 
*  sba loans.
*  Pocket loans (you dig into your pockets... :-)

Lets look at each...  Venture capital is out.  These guys want to talk
at least a million bux, better yet 10 million and must be able to anticipate
a 10 times return on investment in 3 to 5 years.  (this is experience talking)
This operation would do good to be profitable in 5 years, much less saleable
for 10X investment.  Besides, these guys want all the equity.

Bank loans?   Not a chance.  They don't want to loan you money until you are
successful enough not to need it (no :-)

SBA?  If you are not a minority and/or are not opening a corner grocery store,
forget it.  SBA has a large bias against technology.

Pocket loans?  Well that's about all that's left and is what has been
discussed in this group.  The problem is though, that if you could 
raise enough money from friends and such to buy Microport out of bankrupcy,
you would be much better off buying a source license and starting over.
Use the money to grow the new company rather than paying off creditors.

The only way I could see this work is if the court does a Chapter 7.  Then
the assets perhaps could be picked up for a song.  You'd still have the
problem of re-negotiating the license with AT&T.  



>
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC                     | Manual? ... What manual ?!? 
Sales Technologies, Inc.    Atlanta, GA    | This is Unix, My son, You 
...!gatech!stiatl!john                     | just GOTTA Know!!! 

jkingdon@chinet.chi.il.us (Jim Kingdon) (04/10/89)

One possibility you may not have thought of would be to organize the new
corporation as a consumer co-operative.  Giving consumers an official
voice in the corporation would make a lot of sense given the idea of
this as a consumer buyout.  If venture capitalists own a majority of
the stock, they can do whatever they want to with the corporation.
While the inability to issue stock in the usual way (though one can
issue shares under different ground rules) does limit your ability
to raise capital, other sources of capital not available to capitalists
are available, such as the National Cooperative Bank and loans from
existing co-ops.  Microport customers might also be more likely to invest
if they know they will have a say in the corporation.  This of course
does not eliminate the need to figure out whether something profitable
could arise from all this, and how one would be profitable, and so on.

nvk@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Norman Kohn) (04/10/89)

In article <237@egsner.UUCP> eric@egsner.UUCP (Eric Schnoebelen) writes:
>
>In article <310@feedme.UUCP> doug@feedme.UUCP (Doug Salot) writes:
>-
>-In article <96729@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> plocher@sun.COM (John Plocher) writes:
>->	I tried to obtain the legal rights to Microport's driver source
>->	before I left, but because of SEC regulations about insider trading
>->	I would have had to pay "full asset value" for them, and I didn't
>->	have the ~$250K that it would have taken. :-(
>-
Doesn't sound like a definite case of insider trading to me...
but you'd certainly have needed legal counsel.

>	Well, folks, I have been thinking about doing just such a thing.
>The only problem is that I have only the barest knowledge about how to
>do such a thing.

OK, I'd be interested... but I wouldn't start at the financing end.
Microport couldn't make a go of it.  Your (our) group would have to
do better, unless we intend it as a hobby.  Step 1 is a business plan
that explains how the reborn Microport will make money.

Start by figuring out how to finance the telephone support people: users
buy a system, and phone at intervals for years afterwards. (Perhaps
a computer that answers and tells the caller to key in, via touch-tones,
his support number, before a salaried human picks up the phone.)

Would there be new products? Is this a growth market? How many systems
could we sell each year? Would the market saturate? Would users
buy upgrades?   

Televideo must have expected that the tie to uport would help to
sell hardware.  This has to have been a failure.  Perhaps uport
could do better with a different pattern of bundling, or with higher-
performance drivers or better exception handling, etc., to make it
stand out from the pack.  With unix it is probably essential to
be attractive to VAR's, and Xenix/Sco have an obvious leg up
with better visibility, etc.  

Software is a marketing nightmare:  if it's buggy customers scream
that it's defective, but if it works it lasts forever (no planned
obsolescence).  You die unless the market grows!

-- 
Norman Kohn   		| ...ddsw1!nvk!norman
Chicago, Il.		| days/ans svc: (312) 650-6840
			| eves: (312) 373-0564

tim@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Timothy L. Kay) (04/11/89)

You aren't seriously considering a Microport buyout, are you?  As has
been pointed out, they really don't have that much of value, and they
carry a pretty bad reputation.

They do have one thing to offer, though.  Wouldn't it be nice if the
device drivers they produced somehow end up in the public domain, or
even better, in the hands of the Free Software Foundation?  Ideally,
somebody could propose a mechanism whereby Microport (in the absence
of an interested buyer) would donate their device drivers to the Free
Software Foundation.

I am aghast at the poor quality of *all* the 386 Unix's, and I am
going to be one of the first people to adopt GNU if we ever get the
chance.

Tim

bill@carpet.WLK.COM (Bill Kennedy) (04/12/89)

I just gotta stick my oar in, I have bitten my tongue so many times
I can barely taste any more.  If that means that this article is in
poor taste, so be it.  I, like many/all of us was ripped off by
Microport.  I'd call it criminal fraud on their part, but that's a bit
tough to do when you own three copies of V/AT and a V/386 unlimited
with Merge and upgrades.

I never had any quarrel with the tech support staff, I had quit them
before John Plocher arrived, but he did his damndest to give them some
credibility and, thereby, lost some of his.  I think (despite my feelings
for the firm) that John gave it an even shot.  My quarrel is and has
always been with Microport management.  I've been mad at them (remember
that I've sent them some serious coin, that should put my own judgement
into proper perspective) since they were DRI.  I think that they got
their just desserts and I'm glad.

Should we careen headlong into the fray to save them?  That makes about as
much sense as my four paid licenses.  We can't save the "good guys",  they
are gone.  A rush (even though it won't happen) to save Microport will do
nothing more than support the attitudes and policies that put them against
the wall in the first place.  Chuck Hickey (and successors) played us like
a drum.  Do you want to be part of salvaging that which we have bitched
about for three years?  Not me.

It's not enough to stomp on a corpse without suggesting an alternative.
I think it's safe to suggest that V/AT, V/286, whatever, would not be
considered a flagship product.  Let's get farther off the limb and closer
to the tree.  Intel and AT&T (perhaps not in that order) own this product,
why not approach them?  Why not recruit John Plocher since he's one of the
few among us who collected a check (not an invoice) with the Microport
logo?  He's on record as having little loyalty to his previous employer,
he was closer to it than any of us, what's wrong with funding him?  For
some of us V/AT is the only game in town.  The '386 crowd has a number of
alternatives, let's limit this to V/AT.

I propose that each V/AT licensee contribute $10 to fund John to go off
and cut a deal with Intel or AT&T to get us back on the rails.  John, of
course, doesn't even have to acknowledge we exist unless there are
enough $$ to capture his fancy.  ASSuming that we do this and that he does
that, isn't it worth yet another $10/yr to sustain it?  I'd bet there
are 1,000 V/AT users on the net, maybe that many again or ten times that
many outside the net.  What say?
-- 
Bill Kennedy  Internet: bill@ssbn.WLK.COM
                Usenet: {texbell,att,killer,sun!daver,cs.utexas.edu}!ssbn!bill

tim@scsmo1.UUCP (04/12/89)

Any time you try to sell software you must have something that will
attract buyers,  In todays market it is the NAME,  people buy junk
from IBM and Microsoft all the time and why, simpley because of their
name.

To make this work, I can seen a need for at least one package in addition
to unix, an "added feature" package.  It would need something that unix
does not have and would have to work with other vedors unix.  What would
I put in a package?  I don't know, the nice things, TeX, gnuemacs,
games, graphics packages can not be resold. (not too profitable:-)
but thay would get buyers interested in you version of unix.
Currently I don't think you can sell gnu for more than a modest "media"
charge and most games are PD.  TeX right can be bought from someone.
All these things could pe put on your unix but selling them as an add on
to other flavors of unix would not be profitable.  I think the add on
market would allow the company to survive.

tim hogard
tim@scsmo1.uucp

eric@egsner.UUCP (Eric Schnoebelen) (04/12/89)

In article <10317@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> tim@cit-vax.UUCP (Timothy L. Kay) writes:
-
-You aren't seriously considering a Microport buyout, are you?  As has
-been pointed out, they really don't have that much of value, and they
-carry a pretty bad reputation.

	Yes, Microport does have a fairly bad reputation right now.
But they also have name recognition.  Starting an entirely new software
endevor, without a known name would be very expensive, just in terms of
getting the name established..

-They do have one thing to offer, though.  Wouldn't it be nice if the
-device drivers they produced somehow end up in the public domain, or
-even better, in the hands of the Free Software Foundation?  Ideally,
-somebody could propose a mechanism whereby Microport (in the absence
-of an interested buyer) would donate their device drivers to the Free
-Software Foundation.

	Well, none of the drivers for Microport are going to go into the
public domain, at least not until their usefulness has passed.  Right
now they have value to someone ( even only if it is the person who wrote
them.. )

	And the FSF doesn't have that kind of money to spend, and thier
goal is to build a Unix system that is totally free of any AT&T code,
and that certainly couldn't be guarenteed about the Microport code.

-I am aghast at the poor quality of *all* the 386 Unix's, and I am
-going to be one of the first people to adopt GNU if we ever get the
-chance.

	I too am dismayed by the quality of the Unix/386 implementations
I have seen and read about.  I have both Microport Unix/386 and
Unix/286 and Interactive 386/ix, and I much prefer Microport ( I've got
my flame suit on, thanks anyway.. ) to Interactive.  And I have seen
nothing that recommends any other version over Microport to me. ( Enix
might have a chance, but I have yet to play with it.. ) And please don't
tell me about SCO Xenix,  I see more traffic in that group about bugs
than I do in this group and comp.unix.i386 combined.. ( now where did I
put the other flame suit.. :-)

-- 
Eric Schnoebelen
egsner!eric@texbell.swbt.com			...!texbell!egsner!eric
egs@u-word.dallas.tx.us				...!killer!u-word!egs

tvf@cci632.UUCP (Tom Frauenhofer) (04/12/89)

In article <10317@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> tim@cit-vax.UUCP (Timothy L. Kay) writes:
>They do have one thing to offer, though.  Wouldn't it be nice if the
>device drivers they produced somehow end up in the public domain, or
>even better, in the hands of the Free Software Foundation?

Or someone of equal "moral fibre".

>Ideally, somebody could propose a mechanism whereby Microport (in the absence
>of an interested buyer) would donate their device drivers to the Free
>Software Foundation.


I proposed in an earlier posting that we develop the equivalent of a
"Free Driver Software Foundataion".  I don't believe that Microport will
give its drivers out without a fight,  and the fight could drag on for years
with us left in the lurch (this is not a "slam" at Microport - they're just
trying to determine the "fair market value" of their software - I'm not sure
if they have an inflated sense of what is "fair" or not, nor am I implying
that).

Why not instead write our own?  Yes, it would be a lot of work, and yes,
someone would have to co-ordinate the effort so we don't get, say, two people
doing identical serial drivers, but it could be feasible.  There already are
several PD drivers for Microport that I know of (the Lynx joystick driver
comes to mind).  I would be willing to provide a distribution mechanism
on my home BBS system (which also has anonymous UUCP capabilities).

Again, comments?

Thomas V. Frauenhofer	...!rutgers!rochester!cci632!ccird7!tvf
*or* ...!rochester!cci632!ccird7!frau!tvf *or* ...!rochester!rit!anna!ma!tvf1477
FRAU BBS: (716) 227-8094 2400/1200/300 baud - log in as "new" to register

keithb@reed.UUCP (Keith Brown) (04/13/89)

Well, as one of the creditors (yes, Microport owes me money) and a customer,
I'd have to agree with those who don't think it's worth buying the company.

I do hope they recover from the chapter 11, as I prefer their product (the
386 3.0e) over the others in the fire (not having tried Enix in realworld use).
Along with 3.0e installations, I use BDS (on the vax) and T/PIX from Toshiba
and I still prefer Microport.  I want the korn shell.  I want all the commonly-
used-hardware drivers that come with.  I don't want to be forced to buy a Bell
tape drive just to have tape backup (something that was fixed/added in 3.0e).

I still have a long wish list, but given that I don't expect Microport support,
I'd buy the product again (if they'd only ship it to me, Brian!).

BUT, if I were going to throw my own 80K at something substantial, it would be
at an AT&T license (or my mortgage) and not at Microport.

Not having a 286 to my name, I'm not really interested in the V/AT product
(just for the record).

-Keith

C
at an AT&T (or my mortgage) rather than Microport.

-- 
Keith Brown
UUCP:  {decvax allegra ucbcad ucbvax hplabs ihnp4}!tektronix!reed!keithb
BITNET: keith@reed.BITNET       ARPA: keithb%reed.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu
CSNET: reed!keithb@Tektronix.CSNET     CIS: 72615,216

stever@tree.UUCP (Steve Rudek) (04/14/89)

In article <191@carpet.WLK.COM>, bill@carpet.WLK.COM (Bill Kennedy) writes:
> to the tree.  Intel and AT&T (perhaps not in that order) own this product,
> why not approach them?  Why not recruit John Plocher since he's one of the
...
> he was closer to it than any of us, what's wrong with funding him?  For
> some of us V/AT is the only game in town.  The '386 crowd has a number of
> alternatives, let's limit this to V/AT.

I feel much like you, I think.  There are lots of 386 vendors--and I
just read a posting from Interactive in which they hold out a 75% credit to
Microport 386 customers who wish to switch over; Microport 386 owners should
do that.  Period.

The 286 product is the one which I'd like to see saved.  Sure, that is the
one I own, but mainly I'm reasoning that there is no competitive source
of System V for the 286.

All this mumbling about "I'll chip in a couple thousand!" is almost
certainly nothing more than tire kicking.  Although I've no background in 
corporate buyouts I do have a lot of experience in real estate "distress
sales" and I expect there are a lot of parallels. 

I have been thinking that someone might be able to pick up Microport for a
song.  This talk about a million dollar price tag is probably nonsense.
The Microport creditors would likely be willing to settle for
10 cents on the dollar at this point--unless they actually have a secret
agenda of taking over the company themselves.  In these sorts of
circumstances you never know until you try.

Approaching AT&T or Intel to obtain a license for System V/AT might be
worthwhile.  I'm not so sure though; super large corporations such as these
two tend to regard $100,000-$200,000 deals which do not fit neatly into one
of their regular, recurring revenue categories as being more trouble than they
are worth.  This idea is certainly worth investigating if anyone can arrange
an "in" with anyone of sufficient authority at Intel or AT&T.  However, the
286 is rapidly declining in importance and I doubt whether it would make any
sense to redo Microport's work starting with older source from AT&T/Intel.

I still think there's a tantalizing possibility of saving Microport if
either the existing owners or an interested buyer would gamble on the
"silly idea" of releasing Microport owned source for the drivers, etc. UNDER
COPYRIGHT to the Microport community and sell the V/AT product "without
support."  Microport could act as a clearinghouse for driver fixes made by
the user community via a low cost bbs.

Whether that is, in fact, a worthwhile business opportunity depends on
answers to questions such as: (1) How many existent V/AT customers are
there? (2) Who are the Microport creditors and how much are they owed? (3)
What would be the breakeven cost for selling System V/AT (cost of AT&T fees
plus media distribution)?  I wrote John Plocher a letter asking his thoughts
on some of these questions but he either can't or doesn't want to respond. 

What do I think is going to happen?  I think System V/AT is going to die.  I
doubt that any company using traditional thinking about product support can
find a way to make a success of what remains of Microport.

If anyone out there has a couple hundred thousand dollars and a solid
knowledge of UNIX source and basic bookkeeping--or can pull together this
needed expertise with two or three partners this MIGHT be an opportunity to
make a lot of money by helping out an appreciative, existent customer base.
If I had sufficient C/UNIX technical skills for me to adequately access the
size of the challenge I'd likely be investigating the opportunity right now,
myself.  The suggestion of a "communal" buyout and management of Microport
makes me wince--anyone who'd make a statement like "I'd be willing to
contribute a couple thousand dollars" in my opinion has zero business sense and
would most likely be more of a detriment than an asset as a partner.

I really would like to see someone pull off a Microport buyout--they'd
deserve to make a ton of money for their effort and risk and I, for one,
wouldn't begrudge them their profits one bit.
------------
..ucbvax!ucdavis!csusac!tree!stever
..pacbell!sactoh0!tree!stever

root@spdyne.UUCP (04/14/89)

In article <10317@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> tim@cit-vax.UUCP (Timothy L. Kay) writes:
-
-You aren't seriously considering a Microport buyout, are you?  As has
-been pointed out, they really don't have that much of value, and they
-carry a pretty bad reputation.

Eric@egsner writes:
>    Yes, Microport does have a fairly bad reputation right now.
> But they also have name recognition.  Starting an entirely new software
> endevor, without a known name would be very expensive, just in terms of
> getting the name established..

    Fyi:

        Microport's Liabilities total $1,000,000.  Total Assets total
    somewhere between $500,000 and $999,000.  64% of Uport's Capital Stock
    is owned by the officers, TeleVideo Owns 20%, 16% is owned by
    employees...

    Also, As for the connection between Televideo and Uport:

        "Intercompany relations consist of stock ownership in Microport
         Systems, Inc.  There are no loans, guarantees, advances, 
         endorsements or other intercompany relations."

    [As of 3/29/89 - Dunn & Bradstreet report.]

        They have/had 50 accounts.  (Distributors/Computer manufacturers)

    They have a Branch Office in London, England. Employing 6 people as far
    as I can tell from the report.  This office, or at least overseas
    market is about 25% of their sales.

    So you see, they have other assets that might be worth something....
    However, I would think that 1M of debt would kill most of it's usefulness.
    On the other hand, One would think that you might be able to pick up the
    stock for a song right now.... If anyone wants the names or address of 
    the Attorneys or name of the CE... I have them..


If One was truly interested in a buyout, it might be best to just buy
up all the stock....It should be "worthless" if the company owes more
than it has assets.  [But then if it didn't, why would they be in Chap. 11?]

    -Chert Pellett
     chert@spdyne

rjg@sialis.mn.org (Robert J. Granvin) (04/14/89)

>Any time you try to sell software you must have something that will
>attract buyers,  In todays market it is the NAME,  people buy junk
>from IBM and Microsoft all the time and why, simpley because of their
>name.

Name recognition is vitally important, but so is the product and
service.  I can think of no one who'll buy (and/or keep) a "junk"
product from Microsoft or IBM just because it has that name on it.  On
the other hand, I know many who'll buy junk from these people if they
can get good support for it.

The product is important to the end user, especially if it's an
individual.  The service is often more important to a business.  With
good service, you can accept shortcomings in the software.  These two
examples, Microsoft and IBM, with certain exceptions of course, have
generally had a history of good to excellent service.

It's when you don't provide adequate service that you're going to
experience a lot of problems.  At that point, it doesn't really matter
how good your product is.

(Not an editorial, just a general comment).

-- 
       Robert J. Granvin           
   National Computer Systems     "Looks like the poor devil died in his sleep."
       rjg@sialis.mn.org         "What a terrible way to die."
{amdahl,hpda}!bungia!sialis!rjg