bc@mit-amt.UUCP (11/18/87)
I'm a student at the MIT Media Lab, studying the simulation of animal behavior. For "research" purposes, we bought a 90 gallon tank, with two Eheim 330 filters, undergravel, reverse flow, a BIG airpump (24" of stone), all that groovy stuff. I read up on aquaria, and got the impression that it would be a challenge to maintain one. All this stuff about pH, ammonia, temperature, etc. Well, I set up the tank (fresh with plants), got it all going, dumped in about 20 fish, and it went great. Then the weird part: things didn't hardly matter. Sure, it was important to make sure that the chlorine was gone, and the hardness was low, and the pH was right -- when I set it up. Since then, I've not had a problem. My heater got unplugged for a week. Nobody cleaned the tank for three months running. We lost half the water due to evaporation. (The last two were due to untrained people leaving the top off for the entire summer.) None of the fish died. The pH and ammonia were NOT outrageous. So what I guess is this: Big tanks are just as easy as small tanks, day to day. Having way too much filtration is "insurance". (The Eheims each are almost twice as much filter as we need.) Using diatomaceous earth filtration will clean damn near anything out of the water quickly (hey: all visible particulate matter -- i.e. all cloudiness -- gone in two hours with one Eheim diatom charge!). Lots of fish are far more fun (see below!). Your aquarium stand should be a cabinet type, so as to make the whole setup quieter. Everything looks expensive, especially the good stuff (Super Ammo pellets are $30 for the big jar, but that jar lasted 6 months!), but is actually a very cheap hobby by comparison. Get a knowledgeable friend to help you buy a used setup. It's half the cost. Then buy a twice as big setup. My total tank setup weighs about 750 - 1000 pounds. The fish could weigh as much as 2. So that's a 500:1 ratio of support systems. Almost as bad as an Apollo rocket! In short, I'm a big believer. Oh yeah, say something reasonable: I moved the tank recently -- from the messed-up state mentioned above, I put all the fish in a 25 gallon trach bucket (clean...) and dumped the tank, half filled it, stirred up all the gravel to float the -ahem- waste products, diatomed them out, scrubbed the sides, filled the rest of the tank, diatomed all the rust out (from dark orange to sparkling clear in two hours!), and dumped in the fish. THE GOOD PART: So if you were a fish, and you were in this dirty, dark tank one day and a clean tank with much more water flow (turned on the second filter) and much brighter and much chillier (couldn't wait for the water to warm up), what would you think? Springtime! So all my males are turning bright colors and are much more energetic. The females are currently not receptive, but since they are getting the right markings too, I guess that will change. We'll have to see if we get little babies soon (and how many of them get eaten). Nicest present for staying up all night I ever got. (I'm usually much more coherent, but moving the tank for 12 straight hours and then eating coffee to stay awake through class has really messed me up. And I wanted to be the first real note to this group.) "Think like a fish" -- St Augustine...............................bc
becker@rochester.UUCP (11/19/87)
What's diatomaceous earth filtration? Sounds real nice to be able to clear out all the "junk" you mentioned in a couple of hours... Tim Becker. ..!rutgers!rochester!becker becker@cs.rochester.edu
bc@mit-amt.UUCP (11/19/87)
In article <4370@sol.ARPA> becker@cs.rochester.edu (Tim Becker) writes: >What's diatomaceous earth filtration? Sounds real nice to be able to >clear out all the "junk" you mentioned in a couple of hours... Diatoms are Bacillariophyta (flip flip, turn pages) (ahem): Leeetle Leetle algae, single-cell or colonizing. The capsules of the algae have extremely fine intricate structures. Anyway, they are small enough that if you take a pile of dead ones (looks like a fine white powder), and incorporate them into a matrix, you can filter things out on the micron scale. Like rust particles. Swimming pools are often filtered this way. Lots of aquarium filters can use a diatomaceous earth attachment, usually a paper filter that you then pour a suspension of dead diatoms into. The diatoms stick to the paper, and then they filter the water. Eheim filters can take both diatom and carbon filter packs. Usually, what one does is run a diatom charge for a few hours, then switch to carbon. Eheim claims the paper filter alone is pretty good. Well, I dunno about that. There are also entirely diatom-based filters. It's my guess that a diatom filter doesn't build up as much of a bacteria base (lower surface area) as a carbon filter, so that's why I use both............................................................bc
farrens@american.UUCP (11/20/87)
In article <1753@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> bc@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (bill coderre) writes: > > Using diatomaceous earth filtration will clean damn near >anything out of the water quickly (hey: all visible particulate matter >-- i.e. all cloudiness -- gone in two hours with one Eheim diatom >charge!). Pardon my ignorance, but what is this diatomaceous stuff? Glad to hear your setup went so well - although a lot depends on how tough the fish were you dumped in to start with (master of the obvious, eh?) MF
rmpinchback@watmath.UUCP (11/24/87)
If you want to improve the performance of the filtration, don't put your hopes on carbon. Carbon looses most of its effectiveness within a day or so. The reason your filtration worked so well was: (1) Bacterial colonies on filtration surfaces (ie: the surface of the carbon, the filter paper, the plastic. (2) Aerobic/Anaerobic bacterial processes in the gravel (a small part of the "gunk" you filtered up was doing a limited amount of cleaning. Be sure you always remove your fish before so drastic a cleanup. Ammonia levels go through the roof. (3) Large water volumes make for much more stable ecosystems. Any changes in temperature, pH, ammonia are very slow. In addition, the large tank needed for the water will generally have a substantial surface area, dramatically improving the surface oxygen exchange. The sheer volume of water those filters put out is enormous. Good choice of equipment. Many things can be skimped on, but good filters and heaters (for sensitive fish) are always a good investment. If you want to improve the filtration, try experimenting with the filtering media. Filter floss is cheap and much more effective than carbon. Carbon performance degrades with time, while floss performance follows sort of a bell curve. Carbon is useless (more or less) once you have used it for a while. Floss can be rinsed out with chlorine-free luke-warm water and re-used. In fact, it should be re-used a few times. Fine grain (non- sedimentary) aquarium gravel also makes for a good filtering medium. If the cases of your filters don't screen out too much light, try placing them near good light (sunlight or a grow-bulb). This will cause green algae to form on the filtering surfaces, improving certain aspects of the oxygen exchange process. Since you have two filters, try running different media in each, to get the best of all worlds. Have fun. --- Keep the Cauldron Stirring ---
halo@cognos.uucp (Hal O'Connell) (11/25/87)
In article <1753@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> bc@mit-amt.UUCP writes: > >I read up on aquaria, and got the impression that it would be a >challenge to maintain one. All this stuff about pH, ammonia, >temperature, etc. > >Well, I set up the tank (fresh with plants), got it all going, dumped >in about 20 fish, and it went great. > >Then the weird part: things didn't hardly matter. > >Sure, it was important to make sure that the chlorine was gone, and >the hardness was low, and the pH was right -- when I set it up. For a freshwater tank they tend to be less critical. However, for a salt water system pH, ammonia and temperature flucuations can spell disaster overnight. > >So what I guess is this: > Big tanks are just as easy as small tanks, day to day. I've always found them easier. Over the 15 years I have kept aquaria, the smaller systems always showed greater flucuations day to day. The main area I've seen is water level and turbidity. If you are using a regular chemical treatment on the water, or salt, then changes in water level (evaporation) result in rapid changes in concentrations of dissolved chemicals and gases in small systems. If you suffer from high algae levels, then a small system can become clouded ("green water") very quickly. Larger water volumes generally mean slower changes and are therefore usually easier to maintain. Of course, a really healthy aquarium can almost look after itself... > My total tank setup weighs about 750 - 1000 pounds. The fish >could weigh as much as 2. So that's a 500:1 ratio of support systems. >Almost as bad as an Apollo rocket! > The number of fish which can be safely kept in a "community" style tank is generally a function of the average length of the fish kept and the surface area of the tank. In general, aeration does not CAUSE oxygen to dissolve. The majority of gas exhange occurs at the surface. Aeration DOES promote this air exchange by causing circulation (and the ripples do marginally increase surface area). This is why aquaria tend to be shorter than wide (there are exceptions) and also why tanks which have sloping sides should be filled to the level which maximizes surface area. The classic example here is the old-fashioned goldfish bowl. By the way, good luck with the breeding. You may be entering one of the most challenging areas of the hobby. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here should not be attributed to any sentient being, nor do they represent those of my corporate affiliate...;-} -- Hal O'Connell decvax!utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!cognos!halo Cognos Incorporated P.O. Box 9707 (613) 738-1440 3755 Riverside Dr. Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA, K1G 3Z4
richard@gryphon.UUCP (11/30/87)
In article <15631@watmath.waterloo.edu> rmpinchback@watmath.waterloo.edu (Reid M. Pinchback) writes: > >If you want to improve the performance of the filtration, don't put your >hopes on carbon. Oh-oh. > Carbon looses most of its effectiveness within a >day or so. No. Read on. >The sheer volume of water those filters put out is enormous. Good choice >of equipment. Many things can be skimped on, but good filters and heaters >(for sensitive fish) are always a good investment. Well put. >If you want to improve the filtration, try experimenting with the filtering >media. Filter floss is cheap and much more effective than carbon. Carbon >performance degrades with time, while floss performance follows sort of >a bell curve. Carbon is useless (more or less) once you have used it for a >while. Floss can be rinsed out with chlorine-free luke-warm water and >re-used. In fact, it should be re-used a few times. Fine grain (non- >sedimentary) aquarium gravel also makes for a good filtering medium. FILTRATION SUBSTRATES --------------------- These are divided into A) Physical filtration agents 1) Glass wool 2) Polyester fibre 3) Gravel 4) Charcoal and carbon B) Chemical filtration agents 1) Charcoal and carbon 2) ion exchange resins Glass wool ----- ---- Not recommended. This is just glass fibres after all, and the little fibres break, and irritate your hands, and get in the fishes gills. Nasty stuff. Polyester fibre --------- ----- Recommended. Cheap. Inert. Does an excellant job of physical filtration. Used primarily as the first layer in a filter. The idea is to capture as much goop as possible in the floss, so that it can be easily removed from the system. Just turn off the filter, remove the floss and rinse well. If there is a lot of crud on the layer (of whatever is...) below the filter floss then there is a "leak" through the floss layer and crud is getting past it. Note that there will always be some crud below the floss, but there shouldnt be a whole lot, compared to what should be captured by the floss itself. This floss is the same stuff that you can buy REAL CHEAP in store for stuffing pillows, but it seems to mat real easy, and I don't use it. I dont use the petshop brands for the same brand either. What I have found to be very usefull is Marineland brand pads - they are 1/2 inch thick pads that you cut to fit. They seem to hold up quite well and do a good job. Gravel ------ Not bad if you have the room for it. Try a layer of floss on top, gravel, and then carbon. I have done this in some BIG filters, and it works well. For smaller filters this is impractical. I just use floss and carbon. Which leads us to: Carbon and charcoal ------------------- Right. Lets get some terminology down here first. Anthracite coal: Sold as "aquarium carbon" or "aquarium charcoal". Completely worthless. This stuff is coal. Period. Cheap. Ineffective. Looks shiny, no visible pores, kinda heavy. Has no effect in filters, will not remove methylene blue from water, even fresh out of the box. Usually pea sized chunks. Burns well. Bone-charcoal: Sold as "aquarium charcoal" or "bone charcoal". Semi-worthless. Proabably works for a few hours, but thats it. Cheap. Pea sized lumps, lots of large visible pores. Carbon: Smaller pieces, lighter, more expensive. Not great. Certainly not as good as: Activated Carbon: Were talking MarineLand brand here, I'm not certain if anybody else sells the stuff (I think Scattergood sold something along these lines, MANY years ago). Small, about 1/8 inch pieces. Light. EXPENSIVE (I think its about 4-7$ for a 1/2 gal milk container of the stuff) But it works. The first thing you notice about the stuff is that when you rinse it under the tap to release all the carbon dust, it fizzes and sizzes. This particuar activated carbon is made from coconut shells ("bone charcoal" is made from bones) that are somehow magically turned into activated carbon. The activated part means each piece has miles of cracks and crevasses, so small that they trap large molocules. In the aquarium this means gases, dyes, and other impurities in solution that may discolor the water. In a tank with activated carbon filtration, a dye, such as methylene blue, when added to the water, will disappear with short order. If it doesnt, either 1) You bought garbage, 2) The carbon has been working for a long time and needs to be re-activated or 3) It's dead, Jim. Time to buy new stuff. To reactivate carbon, heat it up to 250 degrees. I've used both a microwave and a regular oven, both with success. I'm not sure how old the stuff I'm using is, but I know it's older than 4 years, and still works fine (a recent bout of ick prompted me to dose a tank with _Jungle_ brand "Life Guard" - the only ick cure that 1) works and 2) Doesnt kill everything - I put the stuff in the tank, and in a few minutes the green color was gone) I have reactivated it once. If you do use a microwave to do this, be carefull, the stuff will burn with a wierd glow, like one of them underground coal mine fires. If, after it's cooled down, it sizzles when you put water on it, it's reactivated. Carbon serves as both an excellant physical filtering agent, but, because it can filter such *small* things, it is also a chemical filtering agent. In his book _The Salt Water Aquarium In The Home_, R.P.L. Straughn introduces revolutionary concepts: all glass tanks and activated carbon. Seems the carbon is so DAMN effective, that when he used it on an established tank (that was a bit yellowinsh), the water bacame crystal clear in short order, but the fish had problems. Seems the carbon was taking so mush out of the water, the fish couldnt handle it. Straughn recommended soaking any carbon you intend to use in salt water and only using it for an hour a day, and gradually acclimitize the fish to it. I think he was stating the case where you have an established tank with all sorts of chemical build-up in the tank from a long period of time. I've never had any problems with the stuff in salt water - of course I'm an old fart, I still soak the stuff in salt water, with the ghost of RPLStraughn wathcing over my shoulder. >If the cases of your filters don't screen out too much light, try placing them >near good light (sunlight or a grow-bulb). You could paint them black. 1/4 :-) Since this is replying to a Waterloo posting: On highway #6 (thats the one that goes north-south through Guelph, Galt to Waterloo right ?) about 10 miles south of Waterloo, there is a straight stretch of highway that has forest/swamp on either side. Find the metal culvert/drain that connects the swamp one side of the road with the other. In the spring, after the ice has gone, but not much later, you will find the most AMAZING deposits of daphnia and fairy shrimp. Daphnia are pretty common, as not to need an explanation. Fairy shrimp look like adult brine shrimp, but are about 3/4 of an inch long. I collected there in both 77 and 78, and must have taken home 10 lbs of the stuff, which freezes pretty well (RICHARD !!! WHAT THE H E L L is in these ice-cube trays ?!?) Nothing like that here in California, that I can discern. -- Richard J. Sexton INTERNET: richard@gryphon.CTS.COM UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, ihnp4, nosc}!crash!gryphon!richard "It's too dark to put the keys in my ignition..."
andre@nrc-ut.UUCP (12/02/87)
In article <15631@watmath.waterloo.edu> rmpinchback@watmath.waterloo.edu (Reid M. Pinchback) writes: >If you want to improve the performance of the filtration, don't put your >hopes on carbon. Carbon looses most of its effectiveness within a >day or so. There are two different types of filtration being talked about here, mechanical and chemical. Carbon is great for removing dissolved gases, heavy metals etc, but is not meant to be a mechanical filtering media, and certainly works for more than few days. Filter floss, cotton, pleated filters etc.., are mechanical filters. They remove particles of stuff from the water, and should be left alone until the flow decreases too much. In addition, there are two types of biological filtration, one popular one, and another borrowed from salt-water setups that is also gaining recognition in the fresh-water world. The first is of course, the under- gravel filter. It's main job is to break the ammonia ions down into nitrites and then into nitrates. It is not meant to do anything else, though most of them suck water down through them, and return the filtered water at the surface (some passing through a small carbon filter on the way up). The other is the ultra-violet sterilizer. The UV filter works by passing water over a special germicidal bulb which kills almost anything alive in the water. This is great for controlling bacteria and some parasites. If you are interested, just ask any aquarium store which handles salt-water fish. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- sdcsvax-\ ihnp4-\ \ \ Andre' Hut sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!nrc-ut!andre / / / hplabs--/ ucbvax!calma-/ / utah-gr!uplherc/ Network Research Corporation 923 Executive Park Dr. Suite C Salt Lake City, Utah 84117 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
andre@nrc-ut.UUCP (12/02/87)
In article <1859@cognos.UUCP> halo@sirius.UUCP (Hal) writes: >In article <1753@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> bc@mit-amt.UUCP writes: >> >>I read up on aquaria, and got the impression that it would be a >>challenge to maintain one. All this stuff about pH, ammonia, >>temperature, etc. >> >Of course, a really healthy aquarium can almost look after itself... In fact, a Japanese company now sells a sealed aquarium (complete with plants and fish). All you have to do is add light. Supposed to last years... >The number of fish which can be safely kept in a "community" style >tank is generally a function of the average length of the fish kept and >the surface area of the tank. In general, aeration does not CAUSE >oxygen to dissolve. The majority of gas exhange occurs at the surface. >Aeration DOES promote this air exchange by causing circulation (and the >ripples do marginally increase surface area). It has been shown that you can even aerate with CO2. It's the motion, not the bubbles. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- sdcsvax-\ ihnp4-\ \ \ Andre' Hut sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!nrc-ut!andre / / / hplabs--/ ucbvax!calma-/ / utah-gr!uplherc/ Network Research Corporation 923 Executive Park Dr. Suite C Salt Lake City, Utah 84117 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ix426@sdcc6.UUCP (12/03/87)
In article <2438@gryphon.CTS.COM> richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: >Polyester fibre >--------- ----- >This floss is the same stuff that you can buy REAL CHEAP in store for >stuffing pillows, but it seems to mat real easy, and I don't use it. >I dont use the petshop brands for the same brand either. What I have found >to be very usefull is Marineland brand pads - they are 1/2 inch thick >pads that you cut to fit. They seem to hold up quite well and do a good >job. I normally buy things and use them for the something that they were never intended, but I never do this for anything that goes in my tank. Most home furnishings products contain some sort of (highly toxic to fish) flame retardent. Many plastic garbage bags contain anti-mold/mildew compounds (lethal to fish). I pay the exorbitant pet store price, and assume they use untreated materials -- except for products intended for human food handling/preparation (e.g. food storage bags). -- || Tom Stockfisch, UCSD Chemistry tps@chem.ucsd.edu