richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) (05/04/88)
(having put one foot in his mouth, richard will now jam the other one in there) (Carl S. Gutekunst) writes: I wrote: >>AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ! >> >>$70 for a 20 gal setup ? GAK. > >Please don't be presumptuous. For all your bountifully helpful advice (which >I greatly appreciate), you still seem to have lost touch with those of us who >are still struggling to keep a few fish alive -- i.e., rank beginners. Not at all. I may have been doing this stuff for longer than Bill Wisner has been on this planet, but in oh so many areas I'm a rank beginner. I'm just a cheap son of a bitch, and since i started this expensive hobby when i was young, I learned many (cheap) shorcuts. I still say $70 is outrageous for a 20 gal. setup. Alteranatives are: Seeking out a local aquarium society (of which there are many) and asking a few people what would be a good choice of filters etc for a rank beginner. Fish folk are increadably generous with everything but tanks and you have a very good chance of getting evrything free. Searching the classified ads in the paper or the recycler and buying a complete setup there. Should be 1/2 to 1/4 the price of a new setup. >My time is worth something too, and it took a whole lot less time to work with >people at the fish shop whose advice I trusted Anybody who would sell you a 20 gal setup is sure as hell not somebody *I* would trust. > than to rummage about in yard >sales for used equipment. (There ain't no used equipment in the stores around >here.) Perhaps more importantly, I'm not buying several tanks -- just one. Sure, it just starts with one. Pretty soon you're stashing your lunch money to buy "just another tank", but hey you can quit at any time, and then you go to the fish store every friday and start blowing larger and larger portions of your paycheck, face it pal, YOURE AN ADDICT ! >it blows up and dumps the fish on the floor at 2am, it's a crisis very differ- >ent from when you have three or a dozen tanks. And odds are that my new tank >will hold up better than a used one of unknown origin. If you ever hear of this happening, let me know. I've never heard of it. >>Whats the heater for ? > >To keep the fish warm. :-) > >Newcomers need to reduce the number of variables. My books says that my cory- >doras, swords, and danios want the water to be between 74 and 78F. And I can't >maintain that without a heater. Now, maybe they'll do just fine at room temp- >erature (66 to 74F throughout the day), but that's not what the "experts" have >told me, and everyone I talk fish with uses a heater; so until I have enough >experience to know better, I'll go the conservative route even if my out-of- >pocket expenses are higher. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ! I've never found a fish that couldnt hack 60 - 90 degree water, Remember that a vast majority for the fish we keep come form small, disrty, algae infested streams that undergo a 20 degree change in temperature in 24 hours. Experts dont write those damn books, professional authors do. The amount of bad advice and misinfortion in most of thise books is a crying shame. The only book I've got that seems to have matched my experiences is Exotic Aquarium Fishes, by William T Innes, published in the 20's. Nothing since has come close to good advice and plain onld common sense. Axelrod et al are the worst offenders, most of his statements are made to benefit him personally as he started Gulf fish farms, Miricle PLastics and TFH press. TFH's more scientific books are pretty good but so high level they deal with the more esoteric things such are morphlogical diferrences between clines of bimorphs on the lower estuary of the Zambizi river blash blah blah >I did get silly on a few aspects -- colored gravel, for instance. And it came >with a tight-fitting glass cover, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is not silly at al it is extremely important >a 25W flourescent light, and a gratuitous >sample of pellet food, presumably for koi or goldfish. Incidentally, several >people have sent my E-mail wondering how I was able to put together a setup so >*cheap.* Several people, it seems, have been taken for a ride. $70 bucks is far from cheap, and your original post indicated you are having problems. Can the heater. Just stow it and see what happens. Nothing. > I have seem the same setup at other shops in the $150 range. I you're >a beginner, it's *tough* to find the bargains. If you've really tried to find cheap stuff and failed, this statement has merit, otherwise you are projecting failure. Sorry to sound testy, I dont mean to, be but this really gets my goat. -- "Words of wisdom Lloyd, words of wisdom" richard@gryphon.CTS.COM rutgers!marque!gryphon!richard
sjencso@bbn.com (Steve Jencso) (05/04/88)
Now for my $.02. As I get more into the hobby, I am finding that what Richard says is true. You don't have to pay that much for a setup. I got back into the hobby about 1.5 years ago and spent about $150 for the 29 gallon setup (includes stand). The second 29 gallon I set up was half as much since I got the tank and stand from someone who got out of the hobby. I have recently discovered the discounts available through mail-order. The magazine 'Freshwater and Marine Aquarium' has ads from several mail-order houses. I was amazed at the markup in the retail pet stores. For example, the Hagen AquaClear 200 sells in stores around here for $28-$30, I found it for $15. Also in FAMA are articles that give you ideas on how to cut the cost by do-it-yoourself projects. There was a recent article on building stands for aquariums. Also, why spend the $30-$50 for a hood when you can pick up a flourescent light fixture for $10-$15. The more money you save on setting up a tank, the more tanks you can set up. As for heaters, there are cold winters up here in the NorthEast and without heaters my fish would end up doing the back float. As a warning, I have had problems with Supreme heaters. The thermostat occasionally gets stuck and you end up having boiled fish for supper. The tank has to be monitored closely when you use a heater to prevent this from happening.
farrens@speedy.cs.wisc.edu (Matthew Farrens) (05/05/88)
In article <3787@gryphon.CTS.COM> richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: > >Sure, it just starts with one. Pretty soon you're stashing your lunch money >to buy "just another tank", but hey you can quit at any time, and then >you go to the fish store every friday and start blowing larger and larger >portions of your paycheck, face it pal, YOURE AN ADDICT ! If only it weren't so. We started out with a 30 gallon tank, and an aquaclear, and something else (I don't even remember now) that were *left* to us by a roommate. Didn't even have to buy anything! By the time the "feeding" frenzy had worn off we had another 29 gallon tank, 6 tens, a 2.5, a purchased rack for the 29's, a built rack for the 10's, filters and heaters and lights for all the tanks, ......... For us the worst part wasn't the tanks. You can get tanks, new tanks, real cheap. Deceptively cheap. We got brand new 10 gallon tanks for 5.99. It was all those tops and filters and lights and heaters and gravels and fish and ... > >>it blows up and dumps the fish on the floor at 2am, it's a crisis very differ- >>ent from when you have three or a dozen tanks. Have to disagree here. Unless you are a professional type, a blown tank is no more pleasant for a multi-tank family than for a single-tank family. Blown tanks suck, bottom line. >If you ever hear of this happening, let me know. I've never heard of it. OK, listen up.:-) It happened to us, only not at 2am. (Actually, I think it did happen at 2, but since we don't normally go to bed until 3 it was while we were still awake.) We were in the kitchen and heard this strange sound coming from where the fish were and wandered out to find a huge crack in the back of a 10 and at least 2 gallons of water on our carpet with more coming. Had we not been awake at the time it would have been really bad, but fortunately we were up so we were able to minimize the damage. Two gallons of water is a lot! Imagine taking two gallons of milk and just pouring them on the carpeted floor. It was not a pleasant thing to clean up or smell for the next few days, believe me. >I've never found a fish that couldnt hack 60 - 90 degree water. >Can the heater. Just stow it and see what happens. > OK, I happen to know of several, because I bought a 2.5 gallon hex-like tank for my office and put some hatchets, gouramies, and a cat in it (the furless kind.) However, my office is in a new building and they lower the heat to about 65 at night, so my poor fish were cycling between mid-70's during the day and mid 60's at night. After a couple of them expressed their displeasure by ceasing to breath, I put a heater in and had no more trouble. (Except for the hatchets, who *insisted* on jumping out of my covered tank regularly. You would think they would learn after landing on the floor about the third time!) >Sorry to sound testy, I dont mean to, be but this really gets my goat. Goats! Maybe that is what I should raise! I hear they eat everything, and I wouldn't have to worry about P.H. or trates or trites or metals or algae or para Matthew Farrens
terry@lamc.UUCP (Terry Stinnett) (05/05/88)
My husband started off small, too. Suffice to say he spends
nearly allhis waking hours working with marine set-ups. He even
works for money, whch immediatley gets re-invested in some gadget
or fish or whatnot. He's had excellent succes in finding
"bargains" and whelling and ealng to find a way o get things at
cost or just above it. His experiencewith many "pet" shop type
fish stores is that they often do their best to make a sale
without any concern for follow-up business. If your fish die
you've already spent $$$ on the set-up so you'll be in to buy
more fish.
Sory for typos
--
Terry Stinnett - Letterman Army Medical Center - San Francisco, CA
{ihnp4,lll-crg,ames,pyramid}!pacbell!lamc!terry
"The opinions expressed are from the individual and do not
necessarily reflect those of the Department of the Army."csg@pyramid.pyramid.com (Carl S. Gutekunst) (05/05/88)
>>If it blows up and dumps the fish on the floor at 2am, it's a crisis very >>different from when you have three or a dozen tanks. > >Have to disagree here. Unless you are a professional type, a blown tank is no >more pleasant for a multi-tank family than for a single-tank family.... I didn't mean this *quite* so literally. What I meant was, I still get broken up over fish dying. Not the financial loss, or even the hassle of fetching out this dead thing and deciding what to do with it. I mean, I take it personally, like losing a friend. (Don't tell me about it. I grew up in Iowa, where dead animals are all part of the food chain. And I'll eat seafood 3 meals a day, if I can. It's different when you're supposed to be keeping 'em alive.) So I am very protective of my two little tanks, and lavish far more attention on them than my fellow fish-keeping friends do on their tanks. >Goats! Maybe that is what I should raise! Naw, I've done that. Fish are lots easier. Don't take as much room, don't have to drag 'em across two counties to breed, don't go into heat for that matter. And if you think a dead fish smells bad, try a live male goat. But if you do, please stay outside.... :-) <csg>
sheila@mas1.UUCP (Sheila Beaver) (05/05/88)
This is my first posting to this group - I read it all the time and really
appreciate all the great advise. (Maybe I'll get brave and start a
marine tank - I need to find better ways of parting with more and more of
my paycheck :-) Anyway, I couldn't resist getting involved in this
conversation.
The comment was made (I don't remember by whom) that they felt safer buying
new equipment than used since they didn't want the tank to explode at 2am.
Believe me, it does happen (well, I wouldn't really call it an explosion)
and it is not a fun experience. I had (still have but I'll get to that in
a minute) an 80 gallon, fresh water tank filled with all sorts of wonderful
fish. I went to work one day, blissfully unaware than anything bad would
happen (I had the tank set up for at least a year and a half).
Unfortunately, when I got home that evening, I discovered that at some
point during the day the bottom seal of the tank had "come unglued" and
all the water went on the floor (I was in a 2nd floor apartment so most
of the water ended up in the apartment below me :-) and, needless to say,
the fish all died.
It took me at least two years to get up the courage to try again but what
I did was take the tank to a place that builds them and had it
reconditioned. They took the thing totally apart, cleaned it up,
reinforced the bottom with a second layer of glass around the perimeter,
and resealed the whole thing. The tank originally was purchased new by my
parents probably about ten years before I inherited it. It was moved
several times and probably got bounced around too much. What I'm getting
at here is that you have to be very careful buying used equipment - you
never know what it's been through. I would recommend getting any used tank
reconditioned the way I did (it cost me $70 for the job but even a used 80
gal. tank is expensive...) and they gave me a lifetime guarantee on it.
Yes, used equipment is cheaper but I never want to go through my experience
again. (I now have four tanks in addition to the 80, all doing fine - and
all purchased new.)
As for heaters, I wouldn't think of setting up a tank without one - but I
live in Michigan. (If you want to keep clown loaches, they are extremely
susceptible to ick and need a slightly higher temperature.)
One more thing - does anyone know if a cure has been found for "hole in
the head" disease? My parents used to raise both discus and angels (sold
them wholesale) and finally gave it up because of this very disease.
One of my big angels got it several years back and I had to destroy
him. It would be nice to know what to do if it ever strikes again.
--
Sheila M. Beaver (sheila@mas1) Measurex Automation Systems
{...}pyramid!voder!mas1!sheila Cupertino, CA / Detroit, MI
{...}codas!mas1!sheila (408)973-1800 (313)271-0333Ram-Ashwin@cs.yale.edu (Ashwin Ram) (05/06/88)
In article <3787@gryphon.CTS.COM>, richard@gryphon (Richard Sexton) writes: > >>$70 for a 20 gal setup ? GAK. $70 for a new setup is about how much one would expect to pay, but you can do it in 1/2 as much too if you really want to. Most stores will quite happily sell you a 20 gallon setup for *twice* as much. Here, let's add it up. Roughly: New Alternatives Tank $17 $10 (used) Hood/Light $20 $8 (shop light) Heater $4 (don't use one) Power filter $10 $5 (used) UG filter $9 $4 (make it yourself) Air pump $5 $5 (none) Gravel $5 $5 (none) Total $70 $37 For $4 I wouldn't scrounge on the heater (some of us don't live in California (yet :-))). The hood/light is *the* major rip-off -- too much money for something that hardly provides enough light anyway. > Sure, it just starts with one. Pretty soon you're stashing your lunch money > to buy "just another tank", but hey you can quit at any time, and then > you go to the fish store every friday and start blowing larger and larger > portions of your paycheck, face it pal, YOURE AN ADDICT ! You said it! It's incredible. This stuff's worse than coke (and almost as expensive) :-) :-) :-). -- Ashwin.
richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) (05/06/88)
In article <1222@mas1.UUCP> sheila@mas1.UUCP (Sheila Beaver) writes: {comments about tanks leaking] Ok, I've had 'em leak too. But not 80 gals all over the place, just slow leaks. Never heard of one "exploding" though. Maybe I've been lucky. > > [comments about heaters deleted} Ok. I havn't used them ever, and have had no problems. Three things probably account for this: 1) I don't use incandescent bulbs which raise the temperature quite a bit, and 2) my tanks are in places that arnt subject to radical temperature fluctuations. and 3) they are generally > 30 gals, which helps prevent radical shifts in temperature. >One more thing - does anyone know if a cure has been found for "hole in >the head" disease? My parents used to raise both discus and angels (sold >them wholesale) and finally gave it up because of this very disease. >One of my big angels got it several years back and I had to destroy >him. It would be nice to know what to do if it ever strikes again. Erythromyacin (sp?) is supposed to cure this. Avoid Tubifex worms, as they have been strongly suspected as being a factor. Erythromyacin is available from petshops as Maracyn (tm) or is available 10X cheaper from your local pharmacy. You'll need a perscription from your doctor, but I've found them to be quite willing to do this, once you explain what they are for. You might also try chloramphenicol, not used much on humans anymore, but I've heard good things about it. No, I dont think you can convince your MD your fish need methaqualone. Nice try though. -- noalias went. it really wasn't negotiable richard@gryphon.CTS.COM rutgers!marque!gryphon!richard
molson@apollo.uucp (Margaret Olson) (05/07/88)
Many fish may be able to handle temperatures variations
from 60 to 90, but some can't. If you don't know the
requirements of the fish you have (amazingly common), you
are best off with a heater.
If you are a cheap skate, and live in an old new england
house, you may really really need a heater. For a while
I lived in such a place. My livingroom (with fish) got
into the low fifties on winter nights, maybe even lower.
I discovered that the only heaters that were worth anything
were the 150 watt submersible german things. They did
the job and have held up very well. I used two heaters
in the 30 gallon, and one in the 15 gallon. My fish
stopped dying. These heaters are expensive, but not as
expensive as heating that house at night.
I've given up buying used equipment. Too often in breaks
or is in lousy shape. I bought used 30 gallon tank with
all assesories. I wound up replacing the heater, lid,
and filter in very short order, and in the end it was
a lot of aggravation for trivial savings. Maybe other
people have had better luck, but unloved stuff with moving
parts is usually in lousy shape.
I don't buy setups either - I've never seen one that had
a decent heater or filter.
Margaret.
apollo!molson