SOFER@ANCHOR.RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Sofer) (12/03/90)
My lab uses a high resolution CCD camera to capture grey scale images for analysis. Mostly, we do desitometric scans of gel-based electrophoretic assays, but we also measure densities and positions off of ethidium bromide-stained gels, Southerns, etc. We can also capture the images and edit them with appropriate software. Lanes can be cut out, rearranged and marked, and the output can be sent to a service bureau for near-photographic output. My problem is that such output appears to be unacceptable to most journals. When we recently submitted images treated in the above manner to a journal we were told that only photographs are appropriate. I am told that digitized images when subjected to the processes that printers ordinarily use to put grey scale pictures into journals produce moire patterns. I have several questions. First of all, is it true that most (all?) journals adhere to this policy? Second, if so, are there any efforts being mounted to change it? In particular, in light of the increased talk of electronic publications and the fact that many journals take text electronically, isn't there a need for scientists and publishers to get together to work out ways to solve problems like this one? Finally, are there other people out there who have encountered similar problems and have solved them (without having to go back to photography, darkrooms, scissors and paste)? Bill Sofer Waksman Institute Rutgers University Sofer@Biovax.rutgers.edu
rms@acsu.buffalo.edu (robert m straubinger) (12/04/90)
In article <F5F7728D439F403BA3@mbcl.rutgers.edu> SOFER@ANCHOR.RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Sofer) writes: > >My lab uses a high resolution CCD camera to capture grey scale >images for analysis. > (stuff deleted) >My problem is that such output appears to be unacceptable to >most journals. > (stuff deleted) > I am told that digitized images when subjected >to the processes that printers ordinarily use to put grey scale >pictures into journals produce moire patterns. We've had similar problems, but only with some journals. The moire pattern you mention arises when (some) journals mask the images with screens of varying density, then reshoot the image through the screen. CCD images and photographs of monitors *have* regular horizontal/vertical patterns (even if they look pretty good to the eye) and these elements produce the moire pattern when screened. In some cases, the moire can be subtle, and have the effect of creating details -- bands and new 'structures' in cells. Our (low-tech) solutions include: (1) choose a journal that can print such photos (I don't know why some journals are *much* better than others; I suspect care and production methods); (2) call the journal and ask them to reshoot (sometimes the improvement is amazing); (3) filter out the worst of the CCD 'cell' pattern that causes the moire -- smoothing/blurring/averaging or fourier -- before producing the final copy you send the journal. Just wait 'till you try publishing color images; this is the only way we can convey some kinds of information in our images, and the costs are ASTRONOMICAL. Bob Straubinger Pharmaceutics, SUNY/Bflo rms@acsu.buffalo.edu
Robert.H.Gross@MAC.DARTMOUTH.EDU (12/04/90)
Bill Sofer asks about submitting electronic images.
I have had success submitting images to NIH and NSF in grant proposals
using digitized gel scans that were printed on the LaswerWriter (at least they
have not complained about the images). I think in part it depends on what the
images are meant to show.
One option is to use a densitometric tracing of each gel lane.
I agree with Bill that there is a need for some standardized method to
submit and publish digitized images.
Bob Gross
Dept. Biology, Dartmouth College
Hanover, New Hampshire 03755
bob.gross@dartmouth.edutoms@fcs260c2.ncifcrf.gov (Tom Schneider) (12/04/90)
In article <F5F7728D439F403BA3@mbcl.rutgers.edu> SOFER@ANCHOR.RUTGERS.EDU (Bill Sofer) writes: >My lab uses a high resolution CCD camera to capture grey scale >images for analysis... >My problem is that such output appears to be unacceptable to >most journals. A paper of mine is now in press that has computer generated figures. If they had been photographed, then either the smooth grey background would have been destroyed, or the lettering would have been degraded. To assure that the image was exactly as I wanted it, I sent them negatives. If your output is in PostScript, then you can get your image 'typeset' at rather high resolutions (up to 2540 dots per inch!), and the image can be put directly onto negatives that the printer can use. The main thing is to check with the journal and their printer beforehand to find out what the size requirements are. On a related topic, I hope to see a growth in electronic submission; re-typesetting my paper introduced 10 times as many mistakes as it caught! If everyone submitting manuals sent them in on disk, perhaps the journals that do this will begin to see that they are still in the dark ages. >Bill Sofer >Waksman Institute >Rutgers University >Sofer@Biovax.rutgers.edu Tom Schneider National Cancer Institute Laboratory of Mathematical Biology Frederick, Maryland 21702-1201 toms@ncifcrf.gov
ccy@po.CWRU.Edu (Cheung C. Yue) (12/06/90)
In a previous article, Robert.H.Gross@MAC.DARTMOUTH.EDU () says: > > Bill Sofer asks about submitting electronic images. > I have had success submitting images to NIH and NSF in grant proposals >using digitized gel scans ..... I have seen ads from Stratagene on a system to do such things. I suspect they are using the Intel Visual Edge board for the HP LaserJet which allows one to print 64 grey scale images on a Laser printer. Other companies have adopted the use of 64 grey scale thermal printers from Mitsubishi. I have yet to try any of these solutions, but sample pictures from some of these outputs are quite decent. -- C. Cho Yue ccy%po.cwru.edu@cunyvm.bitnet Dept of Medicine ccy@po.cwru.edu CWRU at MetroHealth Medical Center 3395 Scranton Rd., Cleveland, OH 44109
BACHNER%FRCITI51@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (02/15/91)
Maybe a solution would be to have your pictures encoded in POSTSCRIPT language which is understood by several professinal printing devices? Lucien BACHNER Paris