gklaass@yunexus.UUCP (Gary Klaassen) (11/11/89)
We are considering getting a Personal Iris to do 3D colour graphics. We would like to transfer the images, frame by frame if necessary, to NTSC video (VHS and super VHS) for animation. We have been told that SGI sells a board that will do this, but it takes up the VME slot, which means if you want a tape drive, it has to be external. Does anyone know of any alternatives such as using RGB output? If that is possible, what extra hardware is required? Is a genlock feature required? Thanks in advance, G. Klaassen
blbates@AERO4.LARC.NASA.GOV ("Brent L. Bates AAD/TAB MS294 x42854") (11/13/89)
There are several companies out there that sell devices that connect to
the RGB output of your computer and then connect to your video tape recorder.
However, all the ones I have seen record "live" that is what every is drawn
on the screen however fast or slow that is that is the way it gets recorded.
That is what I have heard about, if there is anything else out there I
would like to know about it.
--
Brent L. Bates
NASA-Langley Research Center
M.S. 294
Hampton, Virginia 23665-5225
(804) 864-2854
E-mail: blbates@aero4.larc.nasa.gov or blbates@aero2.larc.nasa.govGJACKSON@TACOM-EMH2.ARMY.MIL (11/14/89)
The recording of graphics from the Iris to a VCR involves
several pieces of equipment. If you are interested in creating
animations by recording the graphics frame by frame and then
playing back in real time, here is what you will need:
a) A color encoder or an RGB scan converter. The color
encoder combines a ntsc compatible RGB signals (640 X 483 pixels,
30Hz interlaced) into a single ntsc output signal. This hardware
will work fine if you are able to change the high resolution (1280
X 1024 pixels, 60Hz non-interlaced) RGB monitor outputs to the ntsc
compatible RGB via software control. A reasonably good color
encoder costs about $2000. If you cannot change the RGB outputs
or absolutely require the higher resolution, you are forced to get
a real-time digital scan converter. This device runs about $18000.
Either device gives you a recordable ntsc output
signal.
b) The second device you will need is a frame by frame
animation controller. These typically costs about $6000. This
piece requires the use of an RS232 port from the computer. On cue
from the computer, the controller controls the editing functions
of the VCR to insert a single frame onto the video tape.
c) The next thing you need is a VCR that is compatible to the
controller in item b). These are not your typical "home" models.
They have to be editing decks. The low end of the capable 3/4 inch
systems costs about $6000.
d) You asked about the need for a Genlock. It depends on the
quality of video you expect. You could get away without one for
awhile and still get reasonable animations (not broadcast quality).
The best general solution for this is to get a black burst
generator.
I give these as just one solution for a possible animation
station configuration. The right solution for you really depends
on your exact needs in this technology.
There is a corporation now forming that is going into the
business of scientific and engineering visualization. Part of
their business plan includes providing others the service of
setting up animation stations like the one I just described (there
seems to be only a handful of experienced people able to provide
this). The corporation is to be called Visual Computing Group.
Today its services can be obtained via James Banister of Animated
Technologies Incorporated, phone (213)675-0770. Tell him Gerry
told you to call.
Hope this was helpful ... Gerry
Gerald Jackson * If you know exactly what it is
US Army TACOM * you are doing, how much it costs
Attn: AMSTA-RYA * and when it will be done, then
Warren, MI 48397-5000 * you really can't call it
ph. (313)574-5032 * research, can you ?!?ted@bangles.sgi.com (Ted Wilcox) (11/15/89)
In article <5025@yunexus.UUCP>, gklaass@yunexus.UUCP (Gary Klaassen) writes: > > > > We are considering getting a Personal Iris to do 3D colour graphics. > We would like to transfer the images, frame by frame if necessary, to > NTSC video (VHS and super VHS) for animation. > > We have been told that SGI sells a board that will do this, but it > takes up the VME slot, which means if you want a tape drive, it has > to be external. I'm surprised no-one has mentioned this yet. The internal tape drives for the Personal Iris are SCSI devices, so they don't need the VME slot. So, you can have your tape drive and your genlock too. > Thanks in advance, G. Klaassen Ted. ted@sgi.com {sun|decwrl|pyramid|ucbvax}!sgi!ted
msc@ramoth.esd.sgi.com (Mark Callow) (11/18/89)
In article <8911131633.AA13927@aero4.larc.nasa.gov>, blbates@AERO4.LARC.NASA.GOV ("Brent L. Bates AAD/TAB MS294 x42854") writes: > > There are several companies out there that sell devices that connect to > the RGB output of your computer and then connect to your video tape recorder. > However, all the ones I have seen record "live" that is what every is drawn > on the screen however fast or slow that is that is the way it gets recorded. > That is what I have heard about, if there is anything else out there I > would like to know about it. You don't need any other type of converter. You need an animation controller and a single frame VTR. Display the frame, record it, and move to the next one. -- From the TARDIS of Mark Callow msc@ramoth.sgi.com, ...{ames,decwrl}!sgi!msc "There is much virtue in a window. It is to a human being as a frame is to a painting, as a proscenium to a play. It strongly defines its content."
ams@gauss.Princeton.EDU (Andrew Simms) (11/19/89)
Mark Callow writes... > You don't need any other type of converter. You need an animation controller > and a single frame VTR. Display the frame, record it, and move to the > next one. > -- > From the TARDIS of Mark Callow > msc@ramoth.sgi.com, ...{ames,decwrl}!sgi!msc And my response is: WAIT WAIT WAIT not necessarily. There has been a bit of traffic lately about animation and so forth on the net and most of it hasn't given the big picture on making animations. I get the feeling that a lot of people interested in making animations have hit the same walls I did in trying to put together a system that works: 1. Lots of products not marketed specifically at the sci-vi interest group 2. Lots of sleazy video salespeople who have no idea why anyone would buy a 100k+ plus machine that doesn't run lotus but are more than happy to sell you something. So, in a long nutshell, here is the big picture: There are two major arenas in the animation field: frame by frame and realtime. Frame by frame utilizes a device called an animation controller. This box controls a high priced VTR called an editing deck. It can cause the VTR to record extremely short segments of video onto a tape. The net result is a film in the tradition stop action photography. It can produce beautiful results. The second arena is called real time. Here you record images from your iris to a VTR as they are displayed. This type of animation is excellent for demonstrations and animations that are slow enough for your SGI to display in real time. This type of animation doesn't require an editing deck, but the better deck you buy the better results you will get. HARDWARE NEEDED. What you need depends on what you want to do. There are a couple inheirant problems with animation and you must choose the right hardware to solve the problems. These are the problems: 1. The Iris has a high resolution monitor/display. Video decs are low resolution devices. In order to display your Iris screen on standard TV format device, you need to: A. Reduce the resolution of the iris image to NTSC (TV), SuperVHS (a newer higher resolution standard), or another format suitable for your VTR. This process requires a scan converter (Lyon Lamb makes an expensive one, we ended up buying an RGB Technologies box). B. Cut a small window out of your iris screen and transmit it to your VTR. SGI (and other companies) makes a simple card called a genlock option that does this. When this board is on the RGB lines going to monitor change from their normal high-res signal to RS-170, a low resolution RGB signal. I believe (but since I am at home and can't look, that a composite signal is provided as well). 2. Are the movies you wish to make slow enough that your Iris can display the results in real time? If not, you will need to go frame by frame. For this, you need an animation controller. There are several types. A. Lyon Lamb and others make a NTSC/SuperVHS level animation controllers. These are meant to use low resolution images and as such you run into problem 1. Some animation controllers will only accept a composite signal. Therefore if you have solved problem 1 such that you only have RS170 you may need an additional device called an encoder which will take the RGB signal and create a composite signal suitable for the majority of animation controllers. This class of controllers work in the following fashion. You feed the controller an appropriate video signal. The lyon lamb is controlled by your iris via an RS232 cable and it uses software you get to write yourself or purchase. When your frame is ready, you issue a record command. Then you prepare the next frame, record, prepare, record... until it is done. B. Abacus and others make a different type of controller. This device sits on your ethernet and has a 1.2 Gigabyte disk on it. You write software that FTPs your image to the Abacus. It stores sequential frames on disk, and then it will write them out to a VCR. I believe that the transfer is accomplished by constructing a frame on the Abacus's internal frame buffer then it issues a record command to your VTR while displaying the image. This is an expensive device. You do not need a scan converter for this option but you will need an editing deck. Perhaps someone can comment as to whether or not Abacus will provide a deck. It should also be noted that this device cannot do real time recording. C. SGI's new product. SGI now has a card that is an animation controller. It may only work on a Power Series (SGI please confirm) and promises to be a nifty product for those who will only be using an SGI to make movies. It may also be capable of displaying video images on your high-res display while you work (so you can watch CNN while you work like all the cia folks). I believe it can do both frame by frame and realtime animation. SOFTWARE We are writing our own for the stuff we bought, so I don't have much info. It would make this message far more useful if someone would comment on what's available. WHAT I BOUGHT The group here needs to do both frame by frame and realtime animations. We also decided we needed better than NTSC resolution so we went with supervhs. So, we got a Panasonic AG7500A 1/2" VTR, an RGB Technologies Scan converter, a Sony 1342 s-vhs monitor and we upgraded our Lyon Lamb Mini-vas to the SuperVHS edition. Our realtime results have been excellent. When we have our minivas back from upgrade, I will know about frame by frame quality. FINAL THOUGHTS Insist on on-site demonstrations and/or have your dealer leave stuff with you for evalutation. Otherwise you will end up with a pile of stuff you can't even pay graduate students to use. As far as sources for this stuff, I will prepare a list and post it or mail it to those who are interested. Andrew Simms ams@acm.princeton.edu System Administrator Program in Applied and Computational Math Princeton University Princeton, NJ 08544 609/258-5324 or 609/258-6227 609/258-1054 (fax)
gavin@krypton.sgi.com (Gavin A. Bell) (11/20/89)
If there is enough interest, I am willing to type in and post the marketing hype and specs for SGI's newest video product, which is designed specifically for both real-time and frame-by-frame recording on all 4D products (it comes as both an add-in board, or a separate box; the board works only in GTX-type machines). I hesitate to go ahead and post they hype for two reasons: first, I don't want to bother spending half an hour being a stenographer if there is little interest, and I don't want to offend anybody by posting something very commercial. --gavin
jim@baroque.Stanford.EDU (unknown) (11/20/89)
ams@gauss.Princeton.EDU (Andrew Simms) writes:
B. Abacus and others make a different type of controller.
This device sits on your ethernet and has a 1.2 Gigabyte
disk on it. You write software that FTPs your image
to the Abacus. It stores sequential frames on disk, and
then it will write them out to a VCR. [ ...]
It should also be noted that this device cannot do
real time recording.
Not completely true. I've used an Abekas (note the non-Webster
spelling) machine that took NTSC video input, digitized and stored it
on its big mama disk. It handled both realtime and frame by frame
animation.
Jim Helman
Department of Applied Physics P.O. Box 10494
Stanford University Stanford, CA 94309
(jim@thrush.stanford.edu) (415) 723-4940 andrew@alice.UUCP (Andrew Hume) (11/20/89)
in general, i agree with simms's comments. we do animation via a recorder (1" SONY BVH2500) that can record a frame at a time. (it is expensive..... ~$80K). there is a well defined if inconvenient (38.4KB RS422) remote control interface. regrettably, our 4D240 cannot generate 38.4KB (i mean kilobaud here) reliably. this deck gives fabulous video; its what the networks use.
rpaul@dasys1.UUCP (Rod Paul) (11/20/89)
Here's one person interested in hearing more about SGI's new video product...
gavin@krypton.sgi.com (Gavin A. Bell) (11/21/89)
gklaass@yunexus.UUCP (Gary Klaassen) writes: >We are considering getting a Personal Iris to do 3D colour graphics. >We would like to transfer the images, frame by frame if necessary, to >NTSC video (VHS and super VHS) for animation. Since several people have mailed me asking for information on the new VideoCreator product, I've decided to post the information. This information was sent out to the SGI sales force as a sales guide. Note that this product was only recently announced; it is expected to be available in quantity starting in March 1990. ----------------------------- On October 30th, at AutoFact, Silicon Graphics announced a new video interface product for the IRIS 4D workstation family called VideoCreator. VideoCreator is the second member of the 4Deo family of video interface solutions. The first product, the Live Video Digitizer, works with the POWER Series and lets users integrate live video images with real-time 3-D graphics on the same workstation. DESCRIPTION VideoCreator provides a complete, integrated video output solution which allows users to record computer-generated images from their IRIS 4D workstations directly onto standard video tape and disk recorders. The product consists of a VME board that plugs directly into Professional and POWER Series systems. For additional flexibility, the board can reside in a stand-alone box which connects to any of the workstations, including the Personal IRIS. Product features include real-time scan conversion, which allows the user to record onto video tape any image that appears on their high-resolution screen. In addition, VideoCreator allows applictions to record individual frames of computer-generated imagery sequentially, a key step in the process of creating computer animation. Unlike the Genlock option, this function can be performed in the "background" allowing the workstation to be used for other tasks while recording is taking place. SCAN CONVERSION Scan conversion is a commonly used term for taking a high resolution video signal (like the one used to drive IRIS workstation monitors) and lowering the resolution to be compatible with standard television equipment and recorders. Scan converters have been available from third parties like Lyon Lamb, Folsom Research, and RGB technologies for prices ranging from $13,000 to $26,000. VideoCreator's integrated scan converter allows images appearing on the workstation's high resolution screen to be recorded onto video tape in real-time. Scan conversion provides the simplest way to record computer generated images onto video tape. Since no special software is needed, it is the ideal solution for engineers and scientists who want to capture on video tape an interactive session with general purpose software. In addition, scan conversion provides anti-aliasing effects which can smooth lines and edges beyond what mighe be achievable by rendering images directly (frame-by-frame) to television resolution. FRAME-BY-FRAME Frame-by-frame recording is the method traditionally employed to produce computer generated animation. VideoCreator's television resolution VME frame buffer allows application software to render and output images without affecting the workstation's display. This means users can monitor the frame-by-frame recording process while running other applications on the workstation at the same time. VideoCreatorR CONTROL Most computer animation interfaces require the user to purchase an additional piece of equipment called a "VCR controller". The VCR controller allows the workstation to send commands to the VCR directly so that recording does not require the presence of an operator. Such equipment costs from $3,000 to $4,000. A unique feature of VideoCreator is Videomedia's V-LAN VCR control interface. The V-LAN system consists of a transmitter (that resides on the VideoCreator board) and a receiver connected togehter via a proprietary LAN (coax) interface. A customer wishing to use the V-LAN interface must purchase separately a receiver specifically matched to the VCR they will be using. Applications software can send VCR control commands directly to VideoCreator. VideoCreator's V-LAN transmitter sends those commands to the receiver via the coax interface. The receiver then converts those commands into ones understood by the specific VCR being controlled. In this way application software can have full control over the VCR, eliminating any need for operator intervention while doing frame-by-frame recording. CONFIGURATIONS VideoCreator is available for all Silicon Graphics workstations, including the Personal IRIS, Professional and POWER series. The product consists of a 9U VME board that plugs directly into the Professional and POWER series systems. For additional flexibility the board can reside in a stand-alone box which connects to any of the workstations. PRICING Description Price VideoCreator NTSC video $9,950 output, 9U VME board VideoCreator NTSC video $12,000 output, external box (required for Personal IRIS) NOTE: A V-LAN receiver must be purchased separately in order to use the VCR controller interface. The receiver should be purchased from the customer's local video dealer (where they purchased the VCR) or from Videomedia directly. Prices run from $1,000 to $1,650 depending on the type of VCR used. FEATURES BENEFITS Real-time scan conversion "What you see is what you get" video recording, application S/W independent Frame-by-frame recording Can be done in "background" without tying up workstations display Videomedia's V-LAN VCR Lower cost, complete integrated controller solution from one vendor Genlockable output Eliminates need for separate genlock board True RS-170 or EURO RGB Ability to connect to broadcast video output quality color encoders and produce a broadcast quality signal 24 bit true color output Maximize color quality of recording Support for RGB, composite Flexible output formats NTSC and S-VHS or PAL video output QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS Does VideoCreator produce broadcast quality video signals? No it does not. The composite NTSC and S-VHS signals are "industrial quality". They are acceptable for recording directly to high-end consumer and low-end professional video recorders. For broadcast quality the user is encouraged to use a broadcast quality color encoder along with VideoCreator. Why is VideoCreator so expensive? Much of the expense associated with VideoCreator is for the integrated scan conversion feature, that makes video recording easy and simple for unsophisticated video users. Third party scan converters cost form $13,000 to $26,000. Therefore, VideoCreator provides scan conversion, "background" frame-by-frame recording, and deck control all for less than what you pay for many scan converters on the market today. When can I get one? VideoCreator should be shipping in quantity in March 1990.
msc@ramoth.esd.sgi.com (Mark Callow) (11/21/89)
In article <11628@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>, ams@gauss.Princeton.EDU (Andrew Simms) writes: > Mark Callow writes... > > You don't need any other type of converter. You need an animation controller > > and a single frame VTR. Display the frame, record it, and move to the > > next one. > > -- > > From the TARDIS of Mark Callow > > msc@ramoth.sgi.com, ...{ames,decwrl}!sgi!msc > > And my response is: WAIT WAIT WAIT not necessarily. > Thanks for your informative response. I was trying to say only that the same RGB to NTSC box should do regardless of whether you wanted to record real time or single frame. Obviously I wasn't clear enough. -Mark
baskett%forest@SGI.COM (11/22/89)
There are also some moderately priced video disk gadgets that can easily record frame by frame. We have one made by Panasonic, it was about $15K, can record about 15 minutes worth of video, but the blank disks cost about $100 each. Forest
spl@mcnc.org (Steve Lamont) (11/22/89)
In article <JIM.89Nov19115902@baroque.Stanford.EDU> jim@baroque.Stanford.EDU (unknown) writes: >ams@gauss.Princeton.EDU (Andrew Simms) writes: > > B. Abacus and others make a different type of controller. > This device sits on your ethernet and has a 1.2 Gigabyte > disk on it. You write software that FTPs your image > to the Abacus. ... > >Not completely true. I've used an Abekas (note the non-Webster >spelling) machine that took NTSC video input, digitized and stored it >on its big mama disk. It handled both realtime and frame by frame >animation. Actually, I think you're both right. There are several flavors of Abekas. The A60 is a digital disk with no NSTC input (that I know of, but I haven't completely figured the little bugger out yet). It does indeed look like a file system to your favorite file transfer protocol. The A64 and other versions are NTSC digitizers and twiddlers. The A60 comes in 25 and 50 second versions (I've heard rumors of 100 second versions, too, but they must be hellaciously expensive). The A64 will store 30 or 60 seconds (I believe) of captured video. If you're looking for a digital frame store that lives on the Ethernet, then the A60 is the beast that you want. spl (the p stands for pixels at an exhibition) -- Steve Lamont, sciViGuy EMail: spl@ncsc.org NCSC, Box 12732, Research Triangle Park, NC 27709 "There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence." || - Jeremy S. Anderson