FERGUSON@cgi.COM (JAY FERGUSON) (05/11/88)
I just can't let Christopher have the last word... I have worked on
Exploerers, Symbolics, Suns and MicroVaxs but have found no machine
that comes close to the Xerox. Why? Well, I will grant you it is not
the performance of the hardware. I would like to point out that I have
not had any major performance problems solving complex problems. We
would all like to have a 100 mips on our desk. Most performance
problems within AI and symbolic processing are due to poor design
and architecture of the solution!
The characteristics that make the Xerox great is the environment. NO
other environment approaches the integration of useful programming
tools or as well a thought out interactive environment. I constantly
observe engineers spending 5 to 20 times as long building systems
in other environments as it would take in Interlisp.
When you look at the price, $20-25k last time I checked, it is still
the most economical environment to do serious AI. The 1186 hardware
is incredibly dependable and you will not find better service
anywhere! You can't even buy the new Micro-Explorer in a reasonable
configuration for less than than $25k!
I have given Xerox the highest recommendation that I can - I bought
one for myself. One of the best investments that I have ever made.
Jay Ferguson
p.s. If anyone out in net land wants to sell thier 1186's for
parts I would be glad to hear from you. I have had mine
for almost three years and it has only recently started
to show signs of age.eho@CONFUSION.PRINCETON.EDU (Eric Ho) (05/11/88)
++> Date: Wed, 11 May 88 08:09 EST ++> From: JAY FERGUSON <FERGUSON@cgi.com> ++> To: @RELAY.CS.NET:info-1100@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU ++> Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at RELAY.CS.NET ++> Subject: not quite the last word ++> X-Vms-To: IN%"@relay.cs.net:info-1100@sumex-aim.stanford.edu" ++> ++> I just can't let Christopher have the last word... I have worked on ++> Exploerers, Symbolics, Suns and MicroVaxs but have found no machine ++> that comes close to the Xerox. Why? Well, I will grant you it is not ++> the performance of the hardware. I would like to point out that I have ++> not had any major performance problems solving complex problems. We ++> would all like to have a 100 mips on our desk. Most performance ++> problems within AI and symbolic processing are due to poor design ++> and architecture of the solution! ++> ++> The characteristics that make the Xerox great is the environment. NO ++> other environment approaches the integration of useful programming ++> tools or as well a thought out interactive environment. I constantly ++> observe engineers spending 5 to 20 times as long building systems ++> in other environments as it would take in Interlisp. ++> ++> When you look at the price, $20-25k last time I checked, it is still ++> the most economical environment to do serious AI. The 1186 hardware ++> is incredibly dependable and you will not find better service ++> anywhere! You can't even buy the new Micro-Explorer in a reasonable ++> configuration for less than than $25k! ++> ++> I have given Xerox the highest recommendation that I can - I bought ++> one for myself. One of the best investments that I have ever made. ++> ++> Jay Ferguson ++> ++> p.s. If anyone out in net land wants to sell thier 1186's for ++> parts I would be glad to hear from you. I have had mine ++> for almost three years and it has only recently started ++> to show signs of age. Well, all LISP machines' strength is in their superior environment - that's one of their hallmarks anyway - nothing new. Basically, you've only 2 different kinds of environment - the East coast and the West coast. They all have their various virtues and weaknesses but I wouldn't say that the Xerox's environment is superior to that found in the Symbolics Genera environment - the Xerox is definitely more intuitive I must agree but then there are other things in the Genera environment that one couldn't find in the Xerox environment (or at least not yet). Then of course there are many other things both environments share - afterall the inventors of both environments came from the same kind of grad. schools (well, more or less). It is interesting to note that many of the user interface stuff (overlapping recursive windows and pop-up menus) first came up in the 60's in MIT's Machine Architecture Lab (now called Media Lab), then of course some of their grad. students there went to work for PARC afterwards. Life is tough (for Xerox and Symbolics I guess) - superior programming environments will soon no longer be for the rich and famous. regards. -eric-
eho@confusion.Princeton.EDU (Eric Ho) (05/12/88)
++> I have worked on Exploerers, Symbolics, Suns and MicroVaxs but have found ++> no machine that comes close to the Xerox. Well, superior programming environment is one of the hallmarks of all LISP machines anyway - nothing new. Basically, you've 2 environments to compare with (until other vendors invent better environments or simply incorporate the environments into their products) - the East and West coasts. They all have their various virtues and weaknesses but I wouldn't say that the Xerox's environment is superior to that found in the Symbolics Genera environment - the Xerox is definitely more intuitive I must agree but then there are other things in the Genera environment that one couldn't find in the Xerox environment (or at least not yet). Then of course there are many other things both environments share - afterall the inventors of both environments came from the same grad schools (well, more or less) or at least associated with the same schools. It is interesting to note that many of the user interface stuff (overlapping recursive windows and pop-up menus) first came up in the 60's in MIT's Machine Architecture Lab (now called Media Lab), then of course some of their grad students went to work for PARC afterwards. It'll be interesting to see if the lisp machines vendors come up with better and newer environments though as other manufacturers are starting to incorporate similiar environments (almost identical in most cases) into their products. regards. -eric-