goldfarb.ucf-cs@rand-relay.arpa (02/11/83)
From: Ben Goldfarb <goldfarb.ucf-cs@rand-relay.arpa> If Jerry is assuming the status of the "Cosell of Computing," I'm sure he and BYTE love it!
William Chops Westfield <BillW@sri-kl.ARPA> (11/17/84)
Well, if no one else will defend JEP, I will. he logs into ARPANet on MIT-MC. MIT-MC is a DEC PDP10 running ITS (Incompatable Timesharing System (I kid you not)). If you think unix is less user friendly than it should be, youd hate ITS - to get a directory you type ^F, for example, and you can kill a fork with "$^X." Log out with $$U and so on. Its lots of fun. As far as I know, he follows several special-interest mailing lists, but last I heard he was dialing up at 300 baud. Lets see - he last logged in on 9-NOV, and currently has 55 blocks (I forget how big an ITS block is though (1K 36 bit words, I think)) of mail that looks like it hasn't been read. JEP listens a lot, but doesn't talk much. Why? There seems to be something about public figures that makes everbody think that they are entitled to crucify them in public. I don't think Ive ever seen him post a message that hasn't resulted in the net being clogged with rebutles, flames, comments that he doesn't know what he is talking about, and so on. Far more than any normal net user would encounter. So he stopped sending messages. His time is better spent writing for users who know very little about computers, who appreciate his advise, and for which he gets paid (presumably large) sums of money. Why should should he try to talk to people who seem sure that they already have the answers? (I am guilty of this myself, I recall. Seems JEP doesn't like EMACS, which I think is wonderful, and at one point I tried to convince him that I was right. I changed my mind - EMACS is wonderful for me, but that doesn't mean that everybody has to like it.) JEP's Byte column is an extremely valuable service. Not so much to us, since we are frequently able to make our own intelligent decisions about equipment and software, but to truly naive users. Too many other reveiws are always coated with honey - no one wants to say anything bad about a new product. JEP is well off enough to say what he thinks. We may frequently disagree, and ocasionally he may be wrong, but frequently another persons opinion is all a beginning computer user will have to base an expensive decision on. In such a case, that person is probably much better off following Jerry's advise than most others. I present Westfield's Law: "Strongly opinionated people are much more fun to talk or listen to. Especially if you dont disagree with them." BillW
"Jerry E. Pournelle" <POURNE@mit-mc.ARPA> (11/20/84)
Query: to what was this in reply? I confess mild curiousity.
I learn much from the net, but I gather from this ("if no one
else will defend...") that most don't want me around. There is
a remedy. Since I apparently didn't see what Chops was replying
to, I am much in the dark.
I just got something copied to me off sf-lovers about
people who write lousy science fiction; was that intended as a
reference to me though I wasn't named?
This gets a bit tiresome. Or is it a test? Did I pass?mlsmith@nadc.ARPA (11/20/84)
These are the messages I have recieved recently which mention you. Since SRI-NIC gateway has been down, I don't know how many of these you have seen. Here they are: >From kensmith@sunybcs Fri Nov 16 05:33:14 1984 Received: from brl-tgr.arpa by BRL-VGR.ARPA id a002007; 16 Nov 84 4:53 EST From: Ken Smith <kensmith@sunybcs.uucp> Newsgroups: net.micro Subject: Re: Re: Something you'll never see in Pourne Message-ID: <859@sunybcs.UUCP> Date: 16 Nov 84 04:24:31 GMT Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Nov 84 4:41:19 EST Resent-From: news@BRL-TGR.ARPA Resent-To: info-micro-arpa@BRL-VGR.ARPA I think you guys are hitting JP a little too hard. I know this will be difficult, but try to think back to a time when you didn't know what BDOS or BIOS meant. Can you remember that far back? JP's article is geared for the casual user, not someone who can re-write all the system calls and do a better job than the original programmer. If you don't like it, read something else. Of course you can do what I do. Read it for a little entertainment. It's nice to know what kind of yo-yo's are out there using the programs we write. -- ----- Ken Smith - Don't rattle my bars! >From dimare@ucla-cs Fri Nov 16 19:43:59 1984 Received: from brl-tgr.arpa by BRL-VGR.ARPA id ac08441; 16 Nov 84 18:48 EST From: dimare@ucla-cs.uucp Newsgroups: net.micro Subject: Pournelle's Message-ID: <2191@ucla-cs.ARPA> Date: 14 Nov 84 20:55:52 GMT Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Nov 84 18:43:49 EST Resent-From: news@BRL-TGR.ARPA Resent-To: info-micro-arpa@BRL-VGR.ARPA Distribution: I guess we can complain about anything we want. At least we are not forced to read what he writes, or like his style. But if you're like me, and like micros because they're fun, then chances are high you would like Jerry's writing. He loves micros! And he is honest: what would you beleive more: Jerry or any random add? He has also been advocating Modula-2. Good! Why do we have to stay in PascaLand just because we left FortranLand? C is good, so is D. Adolfo /// >From ables@cyb-eng Sat Nov 17 02:00:52 1984 Received: from brl-tgr.arpa by BRL-VGR.ARPA id a001271; 17 Nov 84 1:49 EST From: King Ables <ables@cyb-eng.uucp> Newsgroups: net.micro Subject: Re: Something you'll never see in Pournelle's column Message-ID: <457@cyb-eng.UUCP> Date: 16 Nov 84 16:00:11 GMT Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 84 1:40:30 EST Resent-From: news@BRL-TGR.ARPA Resent-To: info-micro-arpa@BRL-VGR.ARPA [Ah pity da fool who eats dis] >>(paraphrased) JP has access to the net so he must know how to >> login to (or is it log into?:-) ) UNIX. Not necessairly. There are other kinds of machines on the Arpanet. In fact, I believe MIT-MC is a Dec-20 if I remember correctly. I've also seen Dec-10s and it seems like one or two other things I didn't recognize. Also, if you're talking about UUCP, the range is even broader. Vaxes running (cringe) VMS can even do that. Some peoples' micros have been known to do it, too. This is not to defend JP about anything, since I haven't really been following this discussion, anyway. I don't think he and I would get along personally, but that could be as much my fault as his. I do, however, think he knows what he is talking about MOST (not all!!) of the time, and given the level of reader at which he is aiming, I have never been dismayed with any of his work. However, he writes better SF than computer tech. -King (note new address) ARPA: ables%cyb-eng.UUCP@ut-sally.ARPA UUCP: ...{ctvax,gatech,ihnp4,nbires,seismo,ucb-vax}!ut-sally!cyb-eng!ables >From BILLW@sri-kl Sat Nov 17 03:26:59 1984 Received: from sri-kl.arpa by BRL-VGR.ARPA id a002123; 17 Nov 84 3:05 EST Date: 17 Nov 1984 00:02-PST Sender: BILLW@sri-kl.ARPA Subject: Jerry Pournelle From: William Chops Westfield <BillW@sri-kl.ARPA> To: info-micro@BRL-VGR.ARPA Cc: pourne@mit-mc.ARPA, billw@sri-kl.ARPA Message-ID: <[SRI-KL]17-Nov-84 00:02:56.BILLW> Well, if no one else will defend JEP, I will. he logs into ARPANet on MIT-MC. MIT-MC is a DEC PDP10 running ITS (Incompatable Timesharing System (I kid you not)). If you think unix is less user friendly than it should be, youd hate ITS - to get a directory you type ^F, for example, and you can kill a fork with "$^X." Log out with $$U and so on. Its lots of fun. As far as I know, he follows several special-interest mailing lists, but last I heard he was dialing up at 300 baud. Lets see - he last logged in on 9-NOV, and currently has 55 blocks (I forget how big an ITS block is though (1K 36 bit words, I think)) of mail that looks like it hasn't been read. JEP listens a lot, but doesn't talk much. Why? There seems to be something about public figures that makes everbody think that they are entitled to crucify them in public. I don't think Ive ever seen him post a message that hasn't resulted in the net being clogged with rebutles, flames, comments that he doesn't know what he is talking about, and so on. Far more than any normal net user would encounter. So he stopped sending messages. His time is better spent writing for users who know very little about computers, who appreciate his advise, and for which he gets paid (presumably large) sums of money. Why should should he try to talk to people who seem sure that they already have the answers? (I am guilty of this myself, I recall. Seems JEP doesn't like EMACS, which I think is wonderful, and at one point I tried to convince him that I was right. I changed my mind - EMACS is wonderful for me, but that doesn't mean that everybody has to like it.) JEP's Byte column is an extremely valuable service. Not so much to us, since we are frequently able to make our own intelligent decisions about equipment and software, but to truly naive users. Too many other reveiws are always coated with honey - no one wants to say anything bad about a new product. JEP is well off enough to say what he thinks. We may frequently disagree, and ocasionally he may be wrong, but frequently another persons opinion is all a beginning computer user will have to base an expensive decision on. In such a case, that person is probably much better off following Jerry's advise than most others. I present Westfield's Law: "Strongly opinionated people are much more fun to talk or listen to. Especially if you dont disagree with them." BillW >From bjorn@dataio Sat Nov 17 10:04:34 1984 Received: from brl-tgr.arpa by BRL-VGR.ARPA id ah04270; 17 Nov 84 8:51 EST From: Bjorn Benson <bjorn@dataio.uucp> Newsgroups: net.micro Subject: Re: Re: Something you'll never see in Pournell Message-ID: <220@dataio.UUCP> Date: 15 Nov 84 19:32:58 GMT Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 84 8:46:22 EST Resent-From: news@BRL-TGR.ARPA Resent-To: info-micro-arpa@BRL-VGR.ARPA I will not cut it out already! My biggest complaint about him and his column is the way he reviews software and hardware that he is given free. Respectable magazines (and to my knowledge BYTE is included) buy, or accept just as a loaner, things that they review. For example, Consumer Reports acts just like an average consumer, and Car and Driver doesn't get to keep all those cars they test do they? Jerry gets courted day after day as a "special person" by the companies he reviews software for, and gets instant response on hardware problems and then has the GALL to call himself as average user. THAT is where I get upset. If he admitted that everyone treats him like the world's most important person, then maybe I would read his column... but he doesn't so I don't, and I have the right to complain about it, even on the net. Bjorn Benson ..!uw-beaver!teltone!dataio!bjorn >From MEAD@USC-ECLB Sun Nov 18 14:52:49 1984 Received: from brl.arpa by BRL-VGR.ARPA id a017508; 18 Nov 84 14:35 EST Received: from usc-eclb.arpa by BRL-AOS.ARPA id a014166; 18 Nov 84 14:25 EST Date: Sun 18 Nov 84 11:18:40-PST From: Dick <MEAD@USC-ECLB.ARPA> Subject: JEP Pro's & Con's To: info-micro@BRL.ARPA I get the feeling that those that are making all the noise about Jerry are taking him AND themselves much too seriously. It really tickles me to read some of his messages, and those of his 'detractors'. I hope Jerry gets a chuckle out of them too. Come on, people, lighten up. FTTBB. ------- *** Bjorn Benson evidently sent another message which I never received (but that is not surprising since our reception over the gateway is as low as 50%) Isn't it fun to be a celebrity, Jerry? mlsmith@nadc.ARPA
jose rodriguez <jrodrig@mitre-gateway.ARPA> (11/20/84)
Considering that a lot of the discussion was from UUCP based people it is not surprising that it is (in the Arpa side) incomplete and out of order. Maybe in a month we will see the msg that began the whole discussion. Anyway, in my opinion a lot of stuff from UUCP land is heavy flamage not worth paying attention to. You are a tourist at MIT-MC? Many people are (me too) because of their highly commendable view toward randoms. (! I remember when I began playing around that system, all the problems I had with their wheels, (chukle)). Being closely related to people involved with this network and the DDN (which the Arpanet is a part of), I can say there is no test of any kind to belong. Just some good working relation with an official Arpa site. Jose jrodrig@mitre-gateway
dave@fluke.UUCP (Dave Pournelle) (11/29/84)
The next person that says something bad about my little brother is going to get punched in the mouth. Dave Pournelle