W8SDZ@SIMTEL20.ARMY.MIL (Keith Petersen) (09/21/88)
[SEAPKX.TXT from SEAPKX.ARC]
#: 210234 S9/Hot Topic (S)
07-Sep-88 14:54:41
Sb: #210112-#PK settlement details
Fm: Andrew Foray 72617,1167
To: gene saunders 72265,23
The file you refer to is definitely NOT the result of any actions by
SEA. The file claims to have been entered by PKWARE's tech writer, and
contains her own biased comments.
PKWARE, Inc. are the people who wanted it kept confidential in the
first place. I am still bound by my agreement not to discuss the
settlement terms, but am available for other questions about the facts
of this situation. (Strange how they can keep me quiet but feel free to
disclose what portions of the facts they wish)
Taking this legal action was not a decision we took lightly. We regret
being forced into this situation by PKWARE. It is always difficult to
take on a larger company in court.
However, they had clearly STOLEN our code. (As shown by testimony of
the expert witness and admitted by PKWARE under oath) Under these
conditions, the only course left to protect our rights was legal
action. Just because ARC is shareware, free to non-comercial users,
doesn't mean it can be stolen by a commercial company out to make
money.
If anyone has any questions about this matter, feel free to contact me
online or call Thom or myself at (201) 473-5153.
c: #66257 09-10-88 17:07 (Read 3 times)
f: PHIL KATZ
t: JIM DUNNIGAN (Rcvd)
s: R: SEA RESPONDS
cc: NICK KEES
Jim,
Holy cow! If Nick says it is OK, please post the following
response to that message:
1) SEA has FOUR full-time employees. Until yesterday (9/9)
PKWARE had only two full-time employees and two part-time
employees, both who had other full-time jobs. On Friday
9/9 my mother now works full-time for PKWARE, making it
3 full-time people, including myself. The remaining
part-time person is my sister, by the way. Since the
assets and holdings of either company were never disclosed,
claiming that PKWARE is larger than SEA is totally ludicrous.
SEA has more products, including at least two commercial
products, namely AXE and SEADOG, too.
2) It was the joint consensus of both parties as to what portions
of the agreement were confidential. I did not instruct my
attorney that it was the desire of myself or PKWARE that ANY
portion of the agreement be confidential.
3) We did not steal their code. As the public Consent Judgment
document, signed by both parties, says, PKWARE did not admit
to ANY fault or wrongdoing. I certainly did not admit to
stealing their code under oath as Mr. Foray claims either.
>Phil>
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c: IBM GNRL #26721 09-10-88 17:26 (Read 47 times)
f: KAREN LITTLE
t: THOM LITTLE (Rcvd)
s: R: SEA AND PKWARE Reply to #26707
Thom -- you missed the issue completely in the SEA-PK problem.
If I took you to court because I wanted some of your money AND in the legal
briefs I filed I called you a PERVERT, and then I told all my friends is
that the real reason I am calling you a PERVERT is because you have
hiddiously WRONGED my family name, but really, I just wanted your money...
...and if you could NOT afford to defend yourself against me because my
attorney (who was going to make $40,000 of the case) wasn't charging ME a
dime but expected to get his fees from YOU...
...and you said, "OK, let's settle" and you pay me the money, and you give
up any title to your property ... you give up the right to your own
copyrights ...
...and I still call you a PERVERT, and take you back to court with the same
attorney who will collect his fees from YOU...
You would say ... is this justice? And, my friend, what is happening here
could happen to YOU too... It doesn't just happen to the OTHER GUY.
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c: IBM GNRL #26724 09-10-88 23:28 (Read 8 times)
f: JUDY GETTS
t: ALL
s: LOREN JONES' LETTER
cc: NICK KEES
cc: SYSOP
cc: KAREN LITTLE
RBBS-PC OF CHICAGO
Serving the PC Community since 1983!
Loren D. Jones, Sysop
P.O. Box 127
LaGrange, IL 60606
(312) 352-1035 (data)
September 8, 1988
Mr. Thom L. Henderson
System Enhancement Associates, Inc.
21 New Street
Wayne, New Jersey 07470
Dear Mr. Henderson:
I am the sysop of RBBS-PC of Chicago. My board, which was started
in August of 1983, has approximately 5,600 registered users from
every state in the union and fifteen foreign countries. We are
presently adding between five and seven new users every day, seven
days per week. The board has fielded over 120,000 calls to date,
and currently handles in excess of 1,200 calls per week on its five
incoming lines.
I am also a lawyer. And as a lawyer and a sysop I find your recent
actions against PKware despicable. A classic case of "if you can't
out program 'em, sue 'em" mentality. I watched as ARC (a term
clearly a carry-over from CP/M days...contrary to your delusions
of originality) came on the scene. I also watched as it languished
after its introduction with no significant improvements in either
features or speed. You can be grateful that PKARC came along, for
without its speed ARC never would have survived.
What you and your lawyers apparently overlooked in your zealous
greed was the fact that it was BBS sysops such as myself that made
ARC a standard. By your recent actions to destroy one of the few
standards that now exist in the BBS world, you have clearly bitten
the hand that feeds you.
Either reconsider your "settlement" with PKware, or I, like sysops
of hundreds of other major boards, will do all we can to assure
ARC's early demise. I will clear my system of anything bearing
your name and will recommend my users NOT support anything remotely
related to yourself or your company. Finally, it is my intention
to convert my entire system to whatever new library format PKware
chooses to implement in the future. The choice is yours.
Sincerely,
Loren D. Jones
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c: IBM GNRL #26725 09-10-88 23:33 (Read 5 times)
f: JUDY GETTS
t: ALL
s: MORE MESSAGES
cc: SYSOP
cc: KAREN LITTLE
cc: NICK KEES
Date: 08-30-88 (15:44) Number: 7587
To: JUDY GETTS Refer#: 7577
From: BRAD BERSON Read: NO
Subj: SEA VS PKWARE Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Judy,
I applaud your brave editorial. I agree that a boycott is not
always an effective method of contest, but if carried out properly
will certainly get the point across.
I have banished all use of ARC within my own business and from
within my entire domain at my employer (a few hundred machines).
I would like to see that all licensing of SEA software be stopped,
and all licensing of any other vendor's software whose royalties
would go to SEA also be stopped (sorry, Phil). This must be done
to be effective. Support for Phil Katz can be had by liberally
licensing his other non-archive related software (ie. PKfind,
which only reads the directories of ARC files and was not subject
to the terms of the lawsuit).
Brad Berson
Analyst/Programmer
Broadcast Operations
Capital Cities/ABC-TV, Inc.
Date: 09-05-88 (01:58) Number: 128 (Echo)
To: JUDY GETTS Refer#: 119
From: KELLY STANONIK Read: NO
Subj: PK VS SEA Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Hopefully SEA will see what a bad decision they've made when no one
uses or registers anything they write. Ever.
---
* Via Qwikmail 2.01. Kelly Stanonik @ Edtech, Inc.
Date: 08-31-88 (23:18) Number: 7699 (Echo)
To: JUDY GETTS Refer#: NONE
From: CARROLL HANKS Read: 09-09-88 (18:28)
Subj: PK VS SEA Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
I am personally disgusted by the ARC suit, even more so than the Apple
suit and have banned any SEA files from my BBS and encourage all other
Sysops to do the same. Lets let this bully know that their tactics will
backfire on them.
---
* Via ProDoor 2.6
* Origin: Ed Hopper's BBS, Houston, Texas (6)
Date: 09-09-88 (15:28) Number: 28347
To: JUDY GETTS Refer#: NONE
From: PAUL CASTLE Read: 09-09-88 (17:52)
Subj: COMMENT Status: RECEIVER ONLY
Since I don't have the ability to leave messages I guess I have to go
this route. I am sorry.
I would like to show my support for the effort against the insane
actions of SEA. My board will no longer offer any of their products.
Paul E. Castle II
Sysop, Dream Castle
Encinitas, California
(619) 942-5164
Please add me to the list of supporting sysops.
This was intended for Judy Getts.
Thank you.
Date: 09-07-88 (09:38) Number: 7713 (Echo)
To: JUDY GETTS Refer#: NONE
From: JOSEPH SHEPPARD Read: 09-09-88 (18:30)
Subj: SEA VS PKWARE Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Judy,
Thank you for your very informative update on the SEA vs PK situation.
While I sat back quietly during the first round of this fiasco, after
reading your report, I have deleted all of the SEA programs from my
BBS, including CLINK.EXE and ARC.
I have also opened an new Textview door in the discussion conference
of my BBS that offers your report, along with the transcript of the
original lawsuit for online reading and discussion among my user base.
A few years ago BBS operators got together and decided to change from
the .LBR format to the .ARC format and literally put SEA on the map.
Who would have ever registered SEA's ARC program had we not chosen it
as the "standard". In effect, we, the BBS operators have created a
monster. I feel that it is up to us to so what we can, by not
supporting SEA products on our boards.
Over a year ago I designated PKXARC as the "suggested ARC extractor"
for my BBS, so my boycotting ARC may have little impact. However,
when I deleted CLINK.EXE and took SEAlink protocol out of my protocol
listing, that meant that my 1500 active users will now have little
reason to register thier copies of CLINK.EXE.
BBS Systems really can make a difference in this dispute. Again,
where would SEA be if we hadn't chosen to push it's programs in the
first place?
-Joe
---
* Via Qwikmail 2.02a. Joseph Sheppard, The Ledge (818) 352-3620
* Origin: Jim Fouch's Sleepy Hollow, Los Angeles, CA (PCB-Echo Node 2)
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c: IBM GNRL #26702 08-09-88 18:35 (Read 56 times)
f: KAREN LITTLE
t: GLEN THOMPSON (Rcvd)
s: R: R: SEA'S BUSINESS PRA Reply to #26698
Re: Notes from 9-9 SEA vs PKware Contempt Proceedings
I met Attorney Marshall today. He told the court that he had 30+ years
experience as a trademark patent-type attorney. He must not have much
experience as a businessman as his actions are not making sense.
Why, if SEA has just collected $62,500 from Phil (the attorneys get $40,000
of this fee! ! !), and why if SEA expected to get more money thru the end
of January 1989, would they want to keep badgering this case?
Marshall said that SEA had WON! the settlement with Katz. That really
surprised me and I was pleased that Nick Kees also noticed that statement.
This was a civil undertaking that resulted in a legal agreement which was
hammered out over 2.5 days. There were NO winners.
Given the intensity of the 2.5 days it is interesting that no one on SEA's
side even mentioned the documentation's use of the archive term What was
called to attention was the PKarc name -- Nick's point.
Nick further pointed out that the agreement was binding to both parties.
In addition, SEA did NOT stress that the generaric terms stemming from
archiving had trademark protection in any of their documentation. While it
is agreed that tm protection can be in background ... it is still difficult
for people to know about it when the tm'ed word is a common description.
Several points of law were brought up -- and then he talked about some
other points pertaining to computer use. One was that unlike the print
media, the ONLY means of emphasis on a CRT is the use of CAPS -- and last,
the documentation was meant to teach a new user common references to file
compression terms.
There was probably more, but I don't take shorthand. The Judge is thinking
about it. Karen
>>>>>>>>>> Msg 26692 reply #4
18 [N]ext, <R>eply, <L>ist, <S>top to threadtop -->
c: IBM GNRL #26709 09-09-88 21:49 (Read 32 times)
f: GLEN THOMPSON
t: KAREN LITTLE (Rcvd)
s: R: R: SEA'S BUSINESS PRA Reply to #26702
Karen,
Caps is the ONLY form of emphasis on a CRT!!! Then why do we have color,
underlining, and caps? I think Marshall and Henderson are living in the
dark ages of computing.
glen
>>>>>>>>>> Msg 26692 reply #5
18 [N]ext, <R>eply, <L>ist, <S>top to threadtop -->
c: IBM GNRL #26712 09-09-88 22:20 (Read 28 times)
f: KAREN LITTLE
t: GLEN THOMPSON (Rcvd)
s: R: R: SEA'S BUSINESS PRA Reply to #26709
It's me in the dark ages about CAPS along with ASCII. In order to write
documentation that ANYONE can print out, the use of features is very
limited.
>>>>>>>>>> Msg 26692 reply #6 >>>Last msg in reply thread.
18 [N]ext, <R>eply, <L>ist, <S>top to threadtop -->
Returning to normal sequence.
c: IBM GNRL #26693 09-09-88 11:21 (Read 58 times)
f: STEVE SHATTUCK
t: KAREN LITTLE (Rcvd)
s: R: R: NEED A SCANNER Reply to #26660
Karen,
I am not working today, so that is a no go. A text scanner must be
able to recognize the font from the original. What type font do you need
to scan?
Steve
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*Replies*
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c: IBM GNRL #26701 08-09-88 18:14 (Read 50 times)
f: KAREN LITTLE
t: STEVE SHATTUCK (Rcvd)
s: R: R: NEED A SCANNER Reply to #26693
I won't have the text to be scanned until next Monday -- maybe a text
scanner won't work. It will be a photocopy of some legal documents. Can
you suggest something better?
>>>>>>>>>> Msg 26693 reply #1
18 [N]ext, <R>eply, <L>ist, <S>top to threadtop --> l
c: IBM GNRL #26703 08-09-88 18:44 (Read 50 times)
f: KAREN LITTLE
t: NICK KEES (Rcvd)
s: SEA VS PK
cc: JIM DUNNIGAN
Here is the heart of SEA's complaint -- from my crude notes from today's
hearing:
We [SEA} want to enforce what WE thought WE had won. The documentation
looks like the Defendant had won.
Ego. All this crap for Ego. When they were hammering away at the
settlement, it didn't even occur to them. After it was all over, I bet
someone came up to them and said "Hey, lookit this...."
You know ... the furthest thing from the mind of anyone associated with
speedy PKware file compression products is to be COMPARED to the slowest,
most antique and useless product on the market today.
Had ANY of us known that we were lowering our standards because someone
could have seen a connection between PKPAC and SEA, would have made EVERY
effort to even FURTHER distance the product.
Now I have to wash my hands, Karen
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Msg unmarked
c: IBM GNRL #26704 08-09-88 18:55 (Read 45 times)
f: JUDY GETTS
t: PAUL ZIMMERMAN (Rcvd)
s: R: AMICUS CURIAE Reply to #26676
cc: NICK KEES
cc: PHIL KATZ
Nick, Phil -- Yeah, what do you guys think of filing amicus curiae
briefs?
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*Replies*
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c: IBM GNRL #26715 09-09-88 23:10 (Read 22 times)
f: NICK KEES
t: JUDY GETTS (Rcvd)
s: R: R: AMICUS CURIAE Reply to #26704
cc: PAUL ZIMMERMAN
cc: PHIL KATZ
Well, usually when amicus is appropriate is when you have a couple months
or more notice. Here, because it was a contempt proceeding, the notice was
much shorter. So, since the oral argument was today, it's kind of too late
to file amicus briefs anyway. But I'll keep it in mind if anything further
comes up.
Nick
>>>>>>>>>> Msg 26704 reply #1 >>>Last msg in reply thread.
c: IBM GNRL #26707 09-09-88 20:24 (Read 45 times)
f: THOM LITTLE
t: ALL
s: SEA AND PKWARE
Enough is enough ... this debate with many unknown facts has
waged on and on ... long enough ...
There is anonymous name calling, innuendo, good people
felling bad, money bandied around ... and now ... a boycott ...
that's it ... that's it ... you feel that the first company is
trying to put the second company out of business so your response
is to attempt to put the first company out of business ... but
... that's ok because ... YOU are right and SEA is wrong ...
Bull ...
In my opinion neither SEA nor PKware is totally right in this
situation and they have come to an agreement ... no one asked me
my opinion before the agreement was struck ... but the agreement
was struck ... and ... in my opinion all parties should adhere to
it ...
The problem with the boycott is that it does nothing positive
and a lot of things negative ... and I ask ... what's the
purpose? ... what good will come of it? ... I conclude that no
good will come of it ... I propose an alternate course of action
...
The package DSZ is very popular ... it is shareware ... it is
distributed by Omen Technology by Chuck Forsberg (hopefully he is
making money with it) ... DSZ is owned by him ... the ZMODEM
protocol is not ... he placed the ZMODEM protocol in the public
domain ... he then implemented ZMODEM in his DSZ package ... and
charges for its use ...
I call for the same solution for the storage of compressed
data ... I call you all to action ... I suggest that SEA and
PKware be abandoned in favor of a new public domain standard that
is owned by no one and implemented by whoever feels like it ...
and the most clever person with the fastest and tightest code
with the best user interface will be the person who reaps the
greatest rewards ...
Let's put our differences (and favorite vendors) aside and
work to establish a new standard of utility and enhanced
capability ... with the raw material of toil and brain power
available to us from people like Thom Henderson and Phil Katz we
have got to end up with a superb solution to an otherwise
unpleasant situtation ...
Put another way ...
Put the past mistakes aside on all sides ... establish a
public domain standard ... move out with development ... and ...
let the marketplace decide ...
... Thom Little
... ny mail:
THOM LITTLE ASSOCIATES
P.O. Box 1901
Boston, MA 02205-1901
... my modem:
CHANNEL/1
(617) 354-8873
N-8-1, 1200/2400/9600/PC-PURSUITable
(Brian Miller & Tess Heder - System Managers)
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*Replies*
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c: IBM GNRL #26710 09-09-88 22:08 (Read 29 times)
f: GLEN THOMPSON
t: THOM LITTLE
s: R: SEA AND PKWARE Reply to #26707
Thom,
Your suggestion is exactly what Phil is planning to do. His new
compression system will be placed in the public domain. His code will not
be. He has stated that the file format and samples of C code to access
will be published. No licensing or royalties willbe required.
Your comment about Forsberg and ZMODEM is appropriate. Chuck won't object
if someone writes a better ZMODEM package, it's just too hard to do.
Except for the documentation, DSZ is very hard to beat. This should be the
situation with Phil's new compression system.
Many of us thought the ARC file format was in the public domain. The
original documentation seemed to indicate that it was. The main thing that
really bothers people about this case is the fact that Phil probably could
have won. But it wouldn't have helped him much to win the case and lose
everything else. He took the pragmatic approach and bailed out at the
least cost he could. Since he couldn't afford to fight, it was then up to
his friends to try to help him as much as possible. The only avenue open
was to make sure that SEA didn't benefit from the decision. By eliminating
SEA and ARC as a "standard" it may serve as a warning to SEA and others to
consider the long term ramifications of their actions.
I look forward to Phil's new compression system and will do all I can to
get any BBS I use to adopt it.
glen
c: IBM GNRL #26716 09-10-88 00:08 (Read 11 times)
f: STEVE MCCRYSTAL
t: THOM LITTLE (Rcvd)
s: REPLY
Thom,
Thanks for taking the time to share your opinion with us. Howeverthere are
a few points which I feel compelled to comment on.
>you feel that the first company is trying to put the second company out
>of so your response is to put the first company out of business.....
Not true, Thom. I personally care very little (hope there is no (tm) on
that) whether SEA remains in business or not. I hope they do. But I will
in no way support anyone who would use such sleeze ball tactics to try to
stiffle competition and I will do whatever I can to further the boycott.
This is NOT a simple matter of a "local favorite" as is clearly displayed
by the addresses of the many sysops who have endorced the boycott and
pledged their support. As I have said, in my opinion, the boycott is not
intended to put SEA out of business, but I feel that "what goes around
comes around" would cover it fairly well! In fact it is my sincere hope
that SEA can endure the mess THEY have created so as to once again suffer
the humiliation of having the BEST THIRD RATE file compression utility
available. At least with Phil's source, they should be able to figure out
how it SHOULD be done.
>I suggest that SEA and PKWARE be abandoned....
>and the most clever person with the fastest and tightest code with the
>best user interface will be the person who reaps the greatest rewards...
At long last we have arrived at the real reason for this frivolous lawsuit!
That has ALREADY HAPPENED and Thom Henderson seems to be unable to swallow
the facts. His effort is so inferior as to defy comparison wtih PKPAK. It's
like trying to compare a C-64 with a Compac 386. Can't be done! To suggest
that I, as a user, might be misled by the similarity in names is absurd!
After all, I have run them both! And to suggest that anyone else who ran
both programs would be confused is an insult to users and potential users
alike. I am personally offended by the mere suggestion of it. To use it
as the basis of a suit is despicable.
>and let the marketplace decide ...
It is apparent that a sizeable percentage of the marketplace has already
decided! That is why we are anxiously awaiting the release of Phil's new
compression software. To do less would go against my conscience and my
sense of fair play. It would also prevent me from using the very best
tools for my job. Thom Henderson took an idea from a number of pioneers
whose work was in the public domain, turned into a program that worked,
albeit slow to a fault, and then claims that no one can even read a file
generated by his program! THAT is the BULL! As to the ARC "standard",
I submit that it was PKWARE that made ARC the standard, IN SPITE OF SEA's
best efforts to hinder it with their offerings. Remember that what WAS a
mediocre program two years ago STILL IS today, while PKWARE has enhanced
it's system several times. Therefore it would behoove SEA to expend less
effort in trying to destroy competition and more effort trying to improve
the quality of their program. As I have said, at least now they know how!
Thom, please note the closest aproximation I can render here of my
signature. I wish to avoid, at any cost, being accused of trying to
remain anonymous.
-[Steve]-
Steve McCrystal
1618 S. Sunnyslope Rd
New Berlin, WI 53151
Flames: here!
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