peterr@utcsrgv.UUCP (Peter Rowley) (11/13/84)
[pagan ritual] While at the University of Waterloo from '77 to '82, I witnessed the shutdown of free computing services and the effect it had. While others on the net were more directly involved with the free computing than I (and they may well want to comment), I did notice the benefits of free computing and the many disadvantages of not having it. Some specifics: the math faculty (home of CS at Waterloo) had an 11/45 left over from a research project. It fell into the hands of a devoted group of UNIX(tm) hacks who spent a *lot* of time with it. That group went on to become world-class UNIX experts; some wrote Coherent(tm) at Mark Williams Co. and others became valuable systems people at Waterloo. Still others undoubtedly did impressive things I'm not aware of. But all good things pass... the 45 started to be used for courses and where one used to be able to get an account very easily, one now had to have a particular project to work on. I'm not quite sure how it finally died, but soon thereafter, free computing in math at UW ended. (It may have been reborn since; I don't know) The number of UNIX hacks dropped drastically, of course. Some micro- computer hacks appeared, due to the dropping prices of micro hardware, but it wasn't the same-- they lacked a meeting place (the 45's terminal room) and a common sense of purpose (making UNIX better). CS became more mundane. Hacks are still around, but most work on specifically funded projects-- contract work, etc. The creative freedom possible with free computing has been diminished (but not eliminated-- again, others still at UW may well want to comment on this). I think one needs free computing, to give creativity an outlet-- to let people pursue projects that don't have to work or be done by a certain time. Thus will come some flops, but some truly innovative software also. And also some people who know particular machines and operating systems inside out-- and better versions of those operating systems. So, to any hardware manufacturers out there, I urge you to have an "Undirected Computing Grant Programme" to supply machines to hack on. In 5 years or even less you will probably have some world-class experts. Of course, the equipment must be hackable-- source code has to be supplied for example. And there has to be a promise from the university that it won't be used for course work and that free access will be given. It probably helps for the operating system to be a bit obscure (like UNIX) so that there is enough of a barrier to large numbers of people who would otherwise use the machine for homework. (UNIX is a trademark of Bell Labs, Coherent is a trademark of Mark Williams) p. rowley, U. Toronto
herbie@watdcsu.UUCP (Herb Chong, Computing Services) (11/13/84)
"Free computing", as you put it, hasn't quite died at Waterloo. I have
been told that all grad students in CS get a complimentary watbun account
for the Honeywell. Any CS grad student that can't talk their way into
official access to one of the Unix systems doesn't deserve their CS degree.
Electrical Engineering now has two Vax 780s. Everyone in CCNG and VLSI
gets one free. Most of the other EE grads get their own micro's and minis
to work on. All the micros on campus are not accounted in any way.
This includes about 500 IBM PC's, hundreds of DEC Rainbows and PRO's, more
that we know what to do with. Undergrads only have free access to these.
So, undergrads have free access to micros, and grad students usually have
free access to everything else. There is billing done on Unix and our
VM/CMS systems, but not on our VMS systems. So the net effect is computing
is still free, but what systems you can do it on depends on whether
you are graduate or not.
Herb Chong...
I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble....
UUCP: {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!watdcsu!herbie
CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet
ARPA: herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
NETNORTH, BITNET: herbie@watdcs, herbie@watdcsu
POST: Department of Computing Services
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, ON
N2L 3G1 (519)886-4733 x3524dmmartindale@watcgl.UUCP (Dave Martindale) (11/13/84)
In case anyone is interested, this is further information on the 11/45 that Peter Rowley mentioned: The machine was not originally purchased for running UNIX - it was obtained for another project involving custom code running under RSX. But after several years, the project still wasn't quite working, and a group of interested people requested machine time to try to get UNIX up. UNIX was booted by building a root filesystem image on another UNIX 11/45 on campus, taking the RK05 disk to yet another 11/45 running RT11 which then transferred the disk image over a serial line to the target machine (which didn't have a DEC disk of any sort). For four months, UNIX and the other project were running 12 hours a day each. At the end of this period, UNIX took over entirely. After the first few years of running UNIX, the machine was increasingly used for teaching courses - it was the only UNIX machine available to the math faculty, and there was no other system that allowed the operating systems people to build groups of communicating simultaneous processes, and no other system that had tools as suitable for teaching a compiler course on. So it came to be heavily overloaded, and not really useable for kernel (or other types of) hacking. In addition, the professor who was responsible for the system seemed to object to people doing undirected hacking anyway - he wanted people to have specific goals, and demonstrate that the hacking wasn't affecting their schoolwork. Thus, for the last few years that the 11/45 was in general use, it really wasn't a hacker's machine anyway. Then, the faculty purchased its first VAX to replace the /45, but it was intended for teaching and research only, and was instantly overloaded too. The 11/45 was donated to the computer graphics group (it was the original "watcgl") where it was used for a year or so. Then the computer graphics people obtained their own VAX, and the /45 was donated to the Ontario Science Centre. I should note that I'm one of the group of hacks who maintained the /45, and in fact one of the last people who learned UNIX internals on that machine. I started using it in 1976, and the few years following that were the most productive in learning the system and experimenting with modifications to it. Then, almost nobody used UNIX for "serious" work and thus we could reboot it almost any time with little warning. (The fact that the hardware was a hodgepodge of obsolete stuff from various vendors with no maintenance support for most of it probably helped - it went through periods where it crashed so often that only the hacks could tolerate using it anyway.) Ah, the good old days! Dave Martindale
dmmartindale@watcgl.UUCP (Dave Martindale) (11/13/84)
Herb (watdcsu!herbie) points out that "free" computing is still available at Waterloo. Yes, but not in the same manner that Peter Rowley was talking about. In the environment Peter described, a group of students - some grad, some undergrad - had complete access to a machine. They debugged and rewrote parts of the operating system. Virtually no one has that sort of access now, even on the PC's, because sources are not available on the small machines and the VAXes are shared by too many people for anyone to be able to do any operating system hacking (except for the people who are employed to do that, of course). So, though many people can get processor cycles without paying money for them, they don't have the sort of "free" access to the entire system that created the group of UNIX gurus that developed here in the 70's. A few months after first opening the cover of a UNIX manual, I was being encouraged to fix a bug in the lineprinter driver in the kernel (even though I was scared of the idea of tampering with the operating system itself - I was still in first year, and thought I didn't understand any real computer science yet). Five months after I first logged on, I had a summer job that involved writing a device driver and configuring a UNIX system that used it, without any help - and I had just finished first year. In that kind of environment, you learn fast. But that kind of environment just is not available anymore, except perhaps to a very few exceptionally lucky people. Dave Martindale
herbie@watdcsu.UUCP (Herb Chong, Computing Services) (11/14/84)
I agree, but there is freedom of resources and freedom of access. One
has been lost and probably will never be recovered. The PDP 11/45 was
sufficiently small and isolated that few people even heard of it (I
played adventure on it once). Only to a relatively small community
was it available to do almost anything. Today, a small percentage
change in access means a lot of users and usually a lot of hardware.
People who know what they're up to can still do all kinds of things
on the micros, but the VAXen are no longer a freebie curiosity that
needed to be used to justify themselves. With the increase in the
user community came adminstration, and then resource control. I am
fortunate is having access to Unix source, but it is a priviledge I
earned by being a bug-shooter, not because I thought I had something
that someday might be interesting. Unless the resources are there
just for personal use, someone is going to ask a user to justify their
resource consumption.
Herb Chong...
I'm user-friendly -- I don't byte, I nybble....
UUCP: {decvax|utzoo|ihnp4|allegra|clyde}!watmath!watdcsu!herbie
CSNET: herbie%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet
ARPA: herbie%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa
NETNORTH, BITNET: herbie@watdcs, herbie@watdcsu
POST: Department of Computing Services
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, ON
N2L 3G1 (519)886-4733 x3524chenr@tilt.FUN (Ray Chen) (11/17/84)
>From Hugh Redelmeier: >I presume the current generation uses its own personal computers. Yep, as a member of the "current generation", I can definitely say that a VAX makes a pretty nice personal computer, although a 750 is a little slow (:-) ?). As for free computing, I'm all for it. It benefits everybody. The people using the machines learn a lot, have resources available to try out new ideas, and the company donating the machines ends up with a group of people who are whatever-gods. A word to any corporate types out there. In order to make this sort of thing successful, though, the people have to be willing to live on your machine. If it's a dog, then no matter how much you push it on people, the good ones will look elsewhere until they find something more to their liking. Not only that, but if you expect people to hack, and hence, learn about your machine, you'll have to give them something to hack on -- source code. Unix, for example, would be a real pain without source. Imagine trying to fix all the bugs... Even if you never have to look at any of it, it's nice to know it's there. Ray Chen princeton!tilt!chenr
bsa@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) (11/18/84)
We at ncoast offer a Unix (well, Xenix) system for public access, almost
unlimited (have to make room for the owner at work, and, of course, for
news :-) for any user who wants on. (Unfortunately, 3-user Xenix without
source is not the best opportunity around...)
Anyway, I learned Unix hacking on here and just put the system back together
after a major system crash; others have done so in the past from stuff
learned working on here. Is it possible that privately-owned systems
like ncoastcould replace campus facilities for this purpose?
--bsa
--
Brandon Allbery @ North Coast Xenix | the.world!ucbvax!decvax!cwruecmp!
6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, Ohio | {atvax!}ncoast!{tdi1!}bsa
(216) 524-1416 \ 44131 | E1439@CSUOHIO.BITNET (friend's acct.)
---------------------------------------+---------------------------------------
Forgive; we just had a system crash & lost a month's worth of work and patches.fair@dual.UUCP (Erik E. Fair) (11/21/84)
>> From: bsa@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) >> Date: Sun, 18-Nov-84 08:38:59 PST >> Organization: `Stamp Out MicroSoft!' on the North Coast >> >> We at ncoast offer a Unix (well, Xenix) system for public access, almost >> unlimited (have to make room for the owner at work, and, of course, for >> news :-) for any user who wants on. (Unfortunately, 3-user Xenix without >> source is not the best opportunity around...) >> >> Anyway, I learned Unix hacking on here and just put the system back together >> after a major system crash; others have done so in the past from stuff >> learned working on here. Is it possible that privately-owned systems >> like ncoast could replace campus facilities for this purpose? The short answer is ``no.'' The problem with small privately owned UNIX systems is universal: no source. There are three ``public'' access UNIX systems in the Bay Area, of which two are on USENET: proper and vectron. It so happens that both of them are DUAL Systems (end plug). My background in CS and UNIX hacking is from U.C. Berkeley, and I'm happy to say that things there are improving (albeit *very* slowly) rather than degrading as MIT and Waterloo are (or did). When I arrived in the fall of 1980, the Berkeley Computer Club (a.k.a. the Computer Science Undergraduate Association) had 60 restricted access accounts on the Cory Hall PDP-11/70 (2.8BSD), and that was it, unless you wanted to pay your way in the computer center on their poorly maintained 11/70's (and pay you would!). There was hot competition for those 60 accounts, particularly for the top 20, which were for `consultants' who had fixed hours that they would be in the terminal room to help other users (and hack whatever; it was an excuse to be on the machine during prime time hours). In addition to slightly more machine access, there was a higher disk quota on the consultant accounts. The graduates weren't much better off; they all had Cory 11/70 accounts, but the place to be was on Ernie Co-VAX the CSVAX, UCB's one & *only* VAX. Vax accounts for undergrads was pretty much unheard of. The birth of something real for UCB's undergrads came when Onyx Systems donated one of their first machines to Berkeley to have Berkeley utilites ported to it. The graduate students tired of it rather rapidly because it wasn't even as fast as the 11/70, and curious undergrads started getting accounts and doing strange things to the utilities and the Kernel. This was encouraged largely by an enlightened graduate student named Mark Horton (yes, the very same) with some behind-the-scenes help from Professor Robert S. Fabry. After many machinations (Mark graduated to Bell Labs, the Onyx had a head crash and was dead for three months, political maneuvering of various kinds) the Onyx was set up in the basement of Evans Hall (in a terminal room that was being abandoned by the Computer Center & EECS) as the first machine of the `Undergraduate Computing Facility.' The basic policy was that any registered undergraduate of UCB could come and get an account by filling out a form and showing his reg card to a staff member. Of course, there was no way the Onyx could handle the total number of undergrads at UCB (~21,000 at that time), so we didn't advertise our existence very widely (although USENET old timers may remember the `ucbonyx' system hanging off of ucbarpa in days of yore; as a minor point of hysterical fact, version B netnews was originally developed on the ucbonyx, because it was the only place that Matt Glickman could get an account). The UCF has since grown to include a Vax730 (another machine that the grads got tired of real quick, but it's a real vax running 4.2BSD), and a Perkin-Elmer 3230. There is a dedicated cadre of hackers running those machines with varied interests. Some are Kernel hackers, others are Lisping along, still others are doing work in computer graphics. The point, however, is that the UNIX hackers in the bunch wouldn't have learned doodly squat without source on a machine that they could hack and no one would care (much) if it died. That's how I got my first exposure to device drivers (trying to optimize the Onyx disk driver) and to other parts of the v7 kernel. That experience, plus the fact that I had been system manager for a year, got me my current job at DUAL Systems when the University and I parted company in January of 1983. It has stood quite a few of the other hackers who have departed from UCB in good stead also. In short, no source means that you miss a large part of what being a UNIX hacker is all about. down with non-student run university computation centers, Erik E. Fair ucbvax!fair fair@ucb-arpa.ARPA dual!fair@BERKELEY.ARPA {ihnp4,ucbvax,hplabs,decwrl,cbosgd,sun,nsc,apple,pyramid}!dual!fair Dual Systems Corporation, Berkeley, California
randy@wlcrjs.UUCP (Randy Suess) (11/25/84)
In article <420@ncoast.UUCP> bsa@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >We at ncoast offer a Unix (well, Xenix) system for public access, almost >unlimited (have to make room for the owner at work, and, of course, for >news :-) for any user who wants on. (Unfortunately, 3-user Xenix without >source is not the best opportunity around...) > Brandon Allbery @ North Coast Xenix | the.world!ucbvax!decvax!cwruecmp! >6504 Chestnut Road, Independence, Ohio | {atvax!}ncoast!{tdi1!}bsa > (216) 524-1416 \ 44131 | E1439@CSUOHIO.BITNET (friend's acct.) I also have a public access Xenix system in the Chicago area for any/all interested persons. It is running on an Altos 586 with 2 40 meg drives, and 4 lines. It is on USENET with 2.10.2 and rn. The number is (312) 283-0559. All are welcome. If *only* I had known... Randy Suess Chi-Net - Public Access UN*X (312) 545 7535 (h) (312) 283 0559 (system) {ihnp4|ihldt}!wlcrjs!randy
wjafyfe@watmath.UUCP (Andy Fyfe) (12/21/84)
There are two issues involved. One is whether the university provide unrestricted access to its computer facilities. The other is whether or not the university can even provide for its own needs, and is the more important issue. While "free" access is a great thing to have, it can't be provided without first having a surplus. And if we have a surplus at Waterloo, someone must be hiding it. >That valuable resource, the human brain, can be rented for about minimum >wage on most college campuses. A VAX cannot. By the rather rude and >unfair laws of ecomomics the brain sits 'idle' while the machine is >used as a scarce resource. If your brain isn't being fully utilized >go to the library and get a good book *for free*. It will do more >for you in the long run... Them's the facts. Can't change 'em, may >as well deal with 'em. There is no problem keeping my brain fully utilized. One instance when my brain is clearly underutilized is during those times when courses require that I work with the computer, and the computer is so overloaded as to waste a great deal of my time. (Ever typed 80 characters, stopped, and watched all 80 of them appear on the screen, one at a time?) To this I object strongly, and it has the side effect of turning a potentially useful exercise into something to get quickly out of the way. >When something is FREE, you take what you can get and are thankful. That >is the way a capitalist society works. If you want more, buy it. If you >don't have the money, work for it. If you have to chose between work or >school, then chose. Don't gripe about it after. It was your choice. The >world is not 'fair', it just is. I'm not necessarily looking for something for free. The computer science part of my degree requires that I interact with the computers. And I pay money for this, in the form of tuition fees. And as for access to other systems like watmath, I gained this access in exchange for "volunteer work". It isn't for "free". And if I do have access to something "free", and I can exploit it to my advantage, so much the better. >No. The best way to learn is to read. Nothing has come close to the >*WELL STUDIED* text book for imparting maximum information in minimum >time. It is not as much fun as 'hands on'. It takes effort to read. >It is enhanced by a good instructor and well planned exercises. These >may be computer based exercises or 'hand graded'. Doesn't make a bit of >difference if your syntax error was found by the instructor, a computer, >or the student in the next seat. The best way is to read? I'm not sure. Certainly there is a great deal of information to be gained from reading books, but that alone is not enough. You state that learning is enhanced by "well planned exercises". These are "do it" sort of things, not read about it. In this, my final year, the "exercises" that we are given are not Mickey Mouse. The real-time course requires that a pair of students write a real-time kernel, and then an application program to run a model train set. The compiler course requires that a pair of students write a compiler that generates code that will run on a VAX. (These are both 4-month courses.) It would be absurd to think that any instructor, or "student in the next seat" could hand-grade either of these projects without a computer to actually run them on. The marker wants to see a running train, or a compiled program running on the vax, not a lot of code. And I'll never believe that I could have learned more about kernels, real-time, or compilers by reading a book rather than doing the assignment. In fact, I will learn more from a book now than I ever would have before. >The best instructors teach more with the least equipment. You can learn >more about biology with the equipment in your own kitchen and a good >instructor than in the best lab with poor instruction. My first year calculus professor realized that the best learning environment came from a bunch of students getting together to solve problems, because you only learned from doing problems, and there was so much to be learned from students exchanging ideas. I view the instructor as a person who tries to increase my interest in a subject so that *I* will go out and learn about it, not someone who simply teaches. Put the best instructor in the best lab and there is no limit to what I can learn. Can the same be said for my kitchen? >However, if you expect to spend your work life being limited only >by the creativity of your brain you are mistaken. You will be limited >by budgets, social presures, time available, market forcasts, company >policy, product line definitions, available lab space, etc... > >Work/study shows you what you *WILL* be dealing with in the work world. >Now, if you have the money to own your own company and buy your own lab >and do your own research, then you may spend your money as you see fit >and may chose to ignore those limitations. And if you are so equiped with >money, you can buy your own PC or VAXen and avoid learning to live with >limited resource on campus. You may then play to your hearts content. >Again, this is a capitalist society. School is a non-capitalist model >(somewhat reminisent of a Lange type socialism in many ways) trying to >teach the skills needed to live in the greater society. I'm in a co-op program so I've seen the "real world", and I've seen enough of it to know that some of the things we are required to deal with would not be tolerated in the workforce. Certainly the company directs the way I spend my time, but they recognize that if I'm to do useful work for them they have to provide me with the facilities that I require. And so far they've always had the foresight to realize that people require time to go off and do their own thing once in a while, and have encouraged it (within reason, of course!). >Do you want to learn these lessons now, or when your income (read dinner, >rent, car, tv, PC, medical expenses) depends on doing it right without >free run of the facilities? "Doing it right" requires knowing exactly what "right" and "wrong" are. This alone is a good argument for giving students as much possible opportunity to experiment, before it really matters. >No one would dare claim these opinions. Indeed. >E. Michael Smith ...!{hplabs,ihnp4,amd,nsc}!amdahl!ems The loss of unrestricted access to me is a bad first sign. Around here it suggests the absense of surplus cpu resources. Since things are never balanced, this means that the resources are inadequate. This is usually addressed by forcing students to work with overloaded systems (which often means working through the night) or reducing the load by removing some of the work that would normally have been done. I've had to deal with both. The result can easily be a large number of irritated students, or a potentially compromised education. In either case, it's not in anyone's best long term interest. Andy Fyfe ...!{decvax, allegra, ihnp4, et. al}!watmath!wjafyfe wjafyfe@waterloo.csnet