GTHEALL@PENNDRLS.UPENN.EDU (George A. Theall) (10/04/89)
Comments: Rainbow Echomail from BILL MAYHEW I basically agree with most of your points. I am frankly surprised that the one-way path would be acceptable to people here... Just for the sake of argument, though ;-}, there are other issues besides cost in the "Fido vs. CIS" comparison. First, there are automated access programs for the IBM PC and the Mac (not for the RB, unfortunately) which *greatly* optimize the use of one's time and money on CIS, considerably more than can be done on Fido from what I've seen. Second, CIS is far more *reliable* than Fidonet, and is better suited for business users as a result. My perception is that the two services complement each other. There is a small group of users that uses both (of which I am probably the most visible example). Too, the Reach Out America pricing that you mentioned is only useful during certain hours, while CIS' prices apply all day every day. During the business day, CIS' prices are much more competitive, when compared with the long-distance-to-Fidonet option. Additionally, messages posted on CIS are there *now*... they don't take n days to travel across the country, and the CIS message-threading software is considerably more sophisticated and productive than Fido/Opus' limited abilities. In addition, you can FAX things from CompuServe, CIS has more "echo equivalents" (Forums), you can be more selective in what discussions you follow... the list goes on. This is why I say the two services complement each other. Either one might be viewed as "better" for a given user's purpose Fido/Opus is a good, basic system for hobbyist-type use; CIS aspires to something different. --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: Still Servicing the Rainbow - Maybee Forever (1:101/1) --- Via PCBGate v2.0a5 --- BITNET: GTHEALL@PennDRLS Dept. of Economics Internet: GTHEALL@PennDRLS.UPenn.Edu University of Pennsylvania AT+TNet: 215-898-3419 Philadelphia, PA 19104-3987
GTHEALL@PENNDRLS.UPENN.EDU (George A. Theall) (10/06/89)
Comments: Rainbow Echomail from MAYNARD MARQUIS Read: YES In a message of < 2 Oct 89 14:13:08>, Bill Mayhew (1:101/1) writes: >I basically agree with most of your points. I am frankly surprised that >the >one-way path would be acceptable to people here... > Just for the sake of argument, though ;-}, there are other issues >besides >cost in the "Fido vs. CIS" comparison. First, there are automated access >programs for the IBM PC and the Mac (not for the RB, unfortunately) which >*greatly* optimize the use of one's time and money on CIS, considerably >more >than can be done on Fido from what I've seen. If you set up a point and get echomail sent to you, CIS can't come close to optimizing time or money. Automated programs like OPUS express and others can make Fidonet quite efficient even if you aren't a point. Also, can call a vanilla OPUS, use a capture buffer, and use the = command for conti reading. It beats spending money figuring out how to navigate CIS. (They now have a practice forum, but charge me $1.60+ /month even when I DON'T use CIS at all.) If you're 9600 HST like me, CIS can't come close to the volume of fidonet for anywhere near the cost. Don't undersell the capabilities of FIDOnet. I agree with your comments about reliability differences, different users and that Fidonet and CIS probably compliment one another. I think that FidoNet has potential to be better but, after all, it's basically a hobbiest net. If people want to pay me a fraction of what they pay CIS, I'll bet that I could set up a system that matches CIS's efficiency, reliablity, et al. The people using the systems would still be different and it would never be the same, however. My point is that I don't think technical details are the issue. Perhaps, I should investigate the DECPC SIG a bit more. What does it have to offer? I would like to see how different it is. --- msged 1.99S ZTC * Origin: TeleTalk BBS (203-674-1802) (1:142/328) --- Via PCBGate v2.0a5
GTHEALL@PENNDRLS.UPENN.EDU (George A. Theall) (10/07/89)
Comments: Rainbow Echomail from BILL MAYHEW Read: YES
I'm not familiar with OPUS Express (or was it Fido Express?) which you
mentioned.
You're right, if you can get all the echoes dropped on your doorstep,
that's a price that can't be beat. SOMEbody's paying the phone line costs,
though. And you're also correct about 9600bps access; CIS doesn't offer
that except on a very limited basis at a very high cost.
As for "what the DECPC SIG has to offer"... I'm reluctant to get into
a
lot of detail here lest this come across as a marketing pitch (which it
isn't, although CIS is a commercial service). There are about 14
distinct message sections on various topics which can be selected or
deselected by users, so you have _some_ ability to filter out the stuff
you don't want to slog through (and pay for). The Libraries include
roughly 900 files (that's just a guesstimate), probably 90% of
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ things. I don't know how many (if any) are
unique to us. We have
regular weekly on-line conferences, and we are the home of Suitable
Solutions' on-line support. The author of QC, a relatively new
multi-protocol communications program for the Rainbow, "lives" with us
too, and our members contribute to the design of that program and its support.
("Contribute" in the sense of ideas...) There are in addition
a massive number of other things available elsewhere on CIS, outside the
DECPC Forum, as you know; one of these is a very active VAX Forum.
As I've said (and as you I think agreed), I believe we complement each
other.
-Bill
--- ConfMail V4.00
* Origin: Still Servicing the Rainbow - Maybee Forever (1:101/1)
--- Via PCBGate v2.0a5GTHEALL@PENNDRLS.UPENN.EDU (George A. Theall) (10/07/89)
Comments: Rainbow Echomail from BILL MAYHEW Read: YES Sorry about that burst of line noise... seems to be a regular problem somewher between me and the node I dial into here, all of a sudden. Anyway, what it was supposed to say is "... 90% of which are Rainbow-specific things". (We do also support DECmates, Professionals, VAXmates, and DECstation 2xx/3xxs --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: Still Servicing the Rainbow - Maybee Forever (1:101/1) --- Via PCBGate v2.0a5
GTHEALL@PENNDRLS.UPENN.EDU (George A. Theall) (10/09/89)
Comments: Rainbow Echomail from MAYNARD MARQUIS Read: YES Well, I tried CIS, even attempting to use TAPCIS on a PC to cut costs. $3.50 later, I haven't read any messages. I dislike the logon at 300 baud to look around, then log off and call back at 2400 to download. I can't tell you the contortions that I have to do to tell my HST to only crawl at 300 baud just to cut costs. Somehow, TAPCIS logged on, got the messages I asked it to, and then deleted them before I got a chance to read them. I tried to ask for them again, but found that CIS thought that I have read all those messages already! I dislike the long winded menu's that say nothing I want to read, and use up my precious connect time. I wish that I knew the expert commands. TAPCI with its 100 page manual didn't seem that much help either. It seems that I get so much more done on FidoNet and it costs me so much less. CIS sends me all this propaganda that seems designed to give me enough information to log on but not enough to efficiently navigate their system. $3.50 to download a comm program, find out that many DECPC LIB's have no new software in the past few months (at least that's what it looked like it was saying) and answer a questionaire for CIS (I hope that time was as free as they suggested.) I tried to send you a message, but that got messed up too. It's hard to see why someone who couldn't take CIS as a business expense would want to use it much unless they were isolated in Montana or something. Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated, but please send messages in here or Email to 142/0. Thanks. --- msged 1.99S ZTC * Origin: TeleTalk BBS (203-674-1802) (1:142/328) --- Via PCBGate v2.0a5
GTHEALL@PENNDRLS.UPENN.EDU (George A. Theall) (10/10/89)
Comments: Rainbow Echomail from MAYNARD MARQUIS Read: YES Well, I finally got to read some DECPC messages on CIS! It took a few hours and a few more bucks. (I had to read TAPCIS stuff before I could reset my message counter.) One suggestion that I thought of... if you folks want to port TAPCIS to the Rainbow as I kept seeing in the message bases, then why not talk to the authors of the DEC FOSSIL? What you folks decribe has already been done in fidonet. I can run BINKLEY as easliy on my Rainbow 100A as my PC compatible using the appropriate FOSSIL communications drivers. Now let me think out loud... TAPCIS is written in TURBO PASCAL. TURBO PASCAL v5+ compiles on the Rainbow and makes compatible code for the Rainbow if you avoid certain units (like CRT). The communication hardware dependent interface can probably be written by a FOSSIL author if he can be appropriatel compensated. At $80 a pop for TAPCIS, I think that there might be enough "moti available to share with a FOSSIL author if the owner of TAPCIS is willing. It seems to make more sense then the suggestion of waiting for MicroSoft Windows to be ported and buying a windows comm program. ( That is pay some big bucks, still not have a Compuserve B+ protocol available, and you have to write scripts. ) One big problem is how many CIS 'bow owners don't have a PC compatible lying around and can't use TAPCIS directly on their clone? What market exists for a 'bow TAPCIS? (BTW, my CIS trial period may stop when their free time does. Do forum SYSOPS get free access to CIS in exchange for SYSOP duties?) --- msged 1.99S ZTC * Origin: TeleTalk BBS (203-674-1802) (1:142/328) --- Via PCBGate v2.0a5
GTHEALL@PENNDRLS.UPENN.EDU (George A. Theall) (10/12/89)
Comments: Rainbow Echomail from BILL MAYHEW Read: YES In my opinion, logging in at 300 to "look around" and then logging in at 2400 to download is far more trouble than it's worth, PARTICULARLY if you are still in menu mode. 300 baud costs about half as much as 2400, but is one-EIGHTH as fast! Therefore (roughly speaking) if you spend any more than 1/8 of your on-line time collecting information (as opposed to typing it), you are spending more money at 300 than you would at 2400. TAPCIS does NOT delete messages unless you explicitly tell it to. The Forums all keep track of your "high message counter" (not unlike this BBS). TAPCIS "respects" that convention. So if you log in with TAPCIS and it downloads N messages for you, your high-water-mark will be set to the end of that range, and those messages will appear as "already read" when you log back in. TAPCIS is designed to work as your SOLE interface to CIS. You set it up, hit a button, and it automatically logs in, goes from one Forum to another and downloads all the new messages, or a list of all the message headers from which you can pick interesting topics that will be picked up on your next pass. Regarding that last option, however, note that you need to make that "next pass" right away if you expect the list of message headers to remain valid. Old messages constantly scroll off the Forums as new ones are added. Thus if you wait a day in between passes, and try to go back to read an old thread (one near the beginning of the message board), the chances are high that it won't be there any more. TAPCIS doesn't run in MENU mode on CompuServe. Neither do most experienced users. I STRONGLY recommend to ALL comers that they GO PRACTICE, which is a Forum that allows you to play around with the Forum software at essential no charge. (NO connect time costs; only the comm surcharge applies. If you're calling a CompuServe node directly, that's $0.30/hour I believe, REGARDLESS of baud rate. If you're calling via Tymnet or Telenet or Datapac or one of the overseas networks, then the financial picture is a LOT different of course.) You can poke around at "expert mode" in the PRACTICE Forum 'til you're comfortable with it, but once you have TAPCIS set up, you shouldn' NEED to do _anything_ involving CompuServe navigation commands or any of the rest of CompuServe's 'language'. As far as new files in the DECPC Forum, you'll find that we put all new uploads in ONE library for a period of at least (and usually much longer than) 30 days. That is Lib 3, which is called (surprisingly enough) "New Uploads." <smile> There is also a whole TAPCIS forum that is dedicated to supporting it. GO TAPCIS takes you there. One way to look at this is that there are over 500,000 CompuServe users out there. If they are all using it, it can't be _that_ tough. On the other hand, if $3.50 is a big expense for you, then CompuServe is DEFINITELY not an appropriate use of your time and money. Most users get a "starter kit" when they join CompuServe (available at computer stores etc.) that comes with a $25 usage credit, which is designed to be enough to allow you to log on, poke around a bit, understand enough of the navigational language to get by, and GO PRACTICE. All of the above notwithstanding, I will be among the first to agree that CIS' "language" (in which I lump all the navigational stuff as well as the commands you issue to actually _do_ things) is not as intuitive as it could be. Unfortunately a lot of it is "grandfathered" into place, since all the automated-programs like TAPCIS and the scripted programs like LCTERM would break if changes were made. A whole new language was introduced a bit over a year ago, and by most accounts it is a BIG improvement over the old. There _is_ on-line help, but it is not always as useful or as up-to-date as it should be. Unfortunately I have NO control over this stuff; believe me, I have complained about it (and continue to do so). --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: Still Servicing the Rainbow - Maybee Forever (1:101/1) --- Via PCBGate v2.0a5
GTHEALL@PENNDRLS.UPENN.EDU (George A. Theall) (10/12/89)
Comments: Rainbow Echomail from BILL MAYHEW Read: YES There _is_ a "market" for a Rainbow TAPCIS but I don't know how big it is. Certainly it's in the dozens; I have my doubts as to whether it's in the multiple hundreds, though. Unfortunately the author of TAPCIS has been unwilling to release the source code to date. The more TAPCIS users express to *him* their desire to see it on other platforms, the sooner this might change... The Rainbow is not the only "problem machine", of course. There are dozens of other machines out there in a similar fix. Some Rainbow users use LCTERM with scripts. I believe there are some sample scripts in one of the DECPC libraries. Nowhere near as "slick" as TAPCIS, but... I know nothing about FOSSIL and I think it has been mentioned possibly _once_ in the past two years on DECPC. One of the interesting things is to observe the difference in subject matter between DECPC and here; here, there are a lot of messages related to Binkley, FOSSIL, and getting/keeping OPUS/Fido running, while on DECPC there are virtually none of those, and a lot more "how do I make printer X work with software Y on my Rainbow", "how do I make DEC printer X work with my IBM PC", Code Blue, DOS, and applications discussions. --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: Still Servicing the Rainbow - Maybee Forever (1:101/1) --- Via PCBGate v2.0a5
GTHEALL@PENNDRLS.UPENN.EDU (George A. Theall) (10/13/89)
Comments: Rainbow Echomail from DAVID STRICKLER Read: YES Can you tell me about QC for the Rainbow? --- msged 1.99S ZTC * Origin: Midnight DEC (1:101/45) --- Via PCBGate v2.0a5