[comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt] IBM/4.3

flee@shire.cs.psu.edu (Felix Lee) (10/09/89)

Getting rid of this.  Didn't spend as much time as I would have liked
doing the survey.  Someone else's turn to survey now.

Responses are lightly edited.
--
Felix Lee	flee@shire.cs.psu.edu	*!psuvax1!flee

<werner@nihefk.nikhef.nl> Werner H.P. Vogels
  We at the Haagse Hogeschool, Intersector Informatica have 16 6150's
all running IBM/4.3 with X11R3. We are experimenting with AFS but we
do use ATK.  We do not use the IBM displays but a third party display
with the apa16 controller.

<karish@forel.stanford.edu> Chuck Karish
  The Stanford School of Earth Sciences has six 6150s running IBM/4.3.
All of them have 6153s as their consoles, so they don't run X.

<mbrookov@nike.cair.du.edu> Matthew B. Brookover
  We use IBM 4.3!  We have 3 RTs, 2 6150's, and a 6151.
RTTYPE		OS		disk space
6150		AOS		930MB (3 310H disk drives)
6150		AIX 2.21(yuck!) 620MB (2 310H disk drives)
6151		AOS		310MB (1 310H disk drive)
  We are using them to replace 3 VAX 11/170s that are running BSD 4.3.
We also have 15 or so 6152's, but the powers that be wanted to run
MS-DOS (yuck) on them.  Just as soon as I get an ethernet connection
in my office it will be running AOS and X11.
  AOS seems to be pretty good except for the C compilers, what I need is the
GNU C compiler.
  Another annoying problem is the three RTs have IBM 6154 color
monitors wich are not supported by X11.  If you know of a driver for
the 6154 please let me know.

<wittmann@engr.wisc.edu> Art Wittman
  Well, here at the University of Wisconsin Computer Aided Engineering
Cntr, we've got 3 RTs running IBM/4.3.  They don't use any of the
Andrew extensions either.  Two of them have a lot of disk (6X310 Meg)
and the other acts as a mail/news router for our network.  The two
systems with a lot of disk are used as file servers for our network
(not the best choice, but a politically prudent one).  Not too many
applications are run on these things, although we have been able to
port spice and few other berkeley-type public domain programs.  We
were letting users remotely log into the systems to use compilers but
that was too much of a load along with the file serving duties.

<henryc@mcs213k.cs.umr.edu>
  Here at University of MO - Rolla, we are stuck with 15 6152's and a
6150/135 in our department (Comp Sci).  We run AOS/4.3, Dec. 88
Release, X11, but *NOT* Andrew or AFS (although I believe there's some
people in IA who actually got AFS to work after *MUCH* grief, as I
recall).  Another dept. on campus got 25 6152's and a 6150 server and
*NEVER* got AFS to work and so now have 25 DOS machines and an RT
(they got sick of dealing with IBM, as we are also).  10 of our 6152's
are on Token-Ring for student use - the others are in faculty offices.
  Overall, we've been real *UNHAPPY* with IBM.  They just *DON'T* have
their act together in the small system business - this is also true of
the PC side of their operations.  What more do I need to say about a
system than the c compiler doesn't work, the pascal compiler doesn't
work, dbx doesn't work, yp doesn't work, name service (DNS) doesn't
work, some of the networking hardware doesn't work, dos <-> unix
transitions are flaky, os/2 <-> unix interface is flaky, the thing
changes permissions on our filesystem when it restores the filesystem
on a fsck, X doesn't work correctly, and so forth, and so forth, and
so forth....
  One other story...I mentioned above that another dept. tried to run
AFS...  I'll flame for a bit.  IBM promised the world to this
non-computer oriented department so they got 25 6152's, a RT, and a
3812 printer.  Well, we both got our machines at the same time and
while we were beating on our machines, they had IBM *reps* trying to
get their's running (this is at the first of the year).  At the end of
Feb., IBM sent a guy from CA to fix some problems we were having and
to try and get their network up and running.  The guy *TRASHED* our
system (by the time he left, nothing on our system worked - no NFS, no
yp, no nothing).  At any rate, he couldn't get the other dept's
machines to work either, so they converted them to DOS machines and
let them run the rest of the semester.  During the summer and
continuing presently, they're trying very quietly to *DUMP* the things
on other people and they're going to buy some other computers.
  I believe I can say with some authority that when we go out poking
around for more workstations, we'll look at the other three letter
workstation manufacturer (the one that starts with "S").

<tengi@princeton.edu> Christopher Tengi
  Here at Princeton we have a bunch (7 at the moment) of 6150s in the
computer center running AOS and X11R3.  There are also some RTs of
various flavors out on campus running both AOS and AIX.  We chose AOS
for a few reasons, I guess.  For one thing, you can hack the sources
when you need to.  For another, there is more familiarity with BSD
than SysV among those of us who use UNIX around here.  There may be
other reasons that I am not aware of as the decision was made before I
came on board.

<ROB@UNB.bitnet> Robert Robson
  We have one 6150 running AOS4.3 8meg/apa16 X11R1.  We use it for
research in the CS department.  The OS release is one less than the
latest since we installed the latest and found it could not handle our
async card.  I would very much like to be running X11R3 but it does
not seem to be coming from IBM.
   It's not a bad port although there are some problems.  Still, it is
usable and beats AIX all to pieces (at least the PS/2 version).  I
suspect they will be dropping support for this product in favour of
AIX (we have it on order to get the latest X).

<edler@cmcl2.nyu.edu> Jan Edler
  Here at the NYU Ultracomputer Research Laboratory, we use 10 RTs.
All the machines have apa16 displays, and a mixture of IBM and
Micropolis disk drives.  We use the December 1988 aos release, but we
still use X10.

<orachat@edison.seas.ucla.edu> Orachat Choedamphai
  Here at University of California at Los Angeles, department of
SEASnet (School of Engineering and Applied Science), we use IBM/4.3.
We have 6150s and 6151s.  All running IBM/4.3 with X11R2, NFS, but no
Andrew whatsoever.  I have one 6151 running X11R3.

<jnford@jay.weeg.uiowa.edu> Jay Ford
  We have one 6150, two 6151s, and four 6152s.  They are all running
the December release of IBM/4.3, with X11R3, SNMP, and gated.  We do a
little NFS, but no AFS or Andrew.
  The 6150 is a network server (dns, news, mail, white pages, etc) and
network operations monitor (via SNMP); it will soon also be a
BITNET/Internet mail gateway.  Two of the 6152s are IP routers (and
potential name servers), and others are pretty much X terminals plus
local mail & news (via nntp).  One of the 6151s will be a router &
name server; the other will be a personal workstation for a CS faculty
member.

<lichter@cs.ucla.edu>
  Here at UCLA Computer Science we have about 35 6150s and 4 6151s,
all except one running AOS, and most of these running either AOS 11.0
or 12.0.  We have X11R3 and X11R2 running on them, but both show
standard RT bugginess.  We run Magic on our RTs with 5081s (Megapels),
of which we have about eight.  They are not very heavily used because
their software tends to be unreliable, and because our main systems
are Suns and therefore not binary compatable.
  We use NFS and not any of the other remote filesystem packages.

<moore@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu> Keith Moore
  We have 18 model 115's with a 70 Mb disk each.  We use 4.3 with NFS,
and using a couple of old VAXen and some fast Suns as file servers.
We even install 4.3RT on the RTs from the VAXen, with a hacked-up
installation floppy.

<davidra@helios.tn.cornell.edu> David Rabson
  I am a very part-time system manager of two PC/RT's running AOS.
The campus supposedly has a person who is in charge of support; IBM
refuses to talk to anyone but him, and no one stays in the job very
long.  Our support, then, is non-existent.  For the first two years,
the software was so broken that the machines were hardly used at all.
Now a few people use them as X-terminals to real machines (Suns and
mainframes).  I also have a prototype preprint-title database up on
one.  This is a SUN shop, so there is little enthusiasm for IBM.

<fetrow@bones.biostat.washington.edu> Dave Fetrow
  University of Washington has something like 40 AOS RTs.
  We're reasonably happy but then we had 2 (later 1) really GOOD
systems programmers working on them at least half time for over a year
(I think the IBM AOS NFS was based on the port done here).  Note that
we already had a pretty hefty investment in BSD Vaxen but only a few
workstations (in math/stat/biostat anyway) so the RTs are very
welcome.
  They've migrated mostly into the Statistics and Math departments
over time. Having a pile of them makes life quite a bit easier plus
the support of a VAX behind them. We run X10 rather than X11 but
that's livable.
  All things considered it wasn't too bad a deal for us. We've had
other smaller donations of equal (or even better) equipment that
didn't work out becasue we lacked the "critical mass" that makes fixes
and workarounds worth doing. Having that many machines meant we could
spend a lot of time on them and still come out ahead.

<jab@dukee.egr.duke.edu> John A. Board
  We run AOS on a couple of model 125's in the Dept. of Electrical
engineering here at Duke University - it's absurd that it took AOS so
long to get things to work correctly, but I would agree with the IBM
Yorktown comments that it has improved greatly in 1989.  With a
megapel we find them to be very good X11 platforms for VLSI CAD work
and other applications.

<henry@garp.mit.edu> Henry Mensch
  we are project athena; we run it on approximately half of 1200
workstations deployed all over campus (the other 600 workstations are
of the DEC variety).  most of the workstations in the field are of a
standard configuration (apa16-type display, 4 meg of memory,
'table-top' cabinet with the 'new' cpu board).
  we deliver software to them with NFS, RVD, and AFS; they all run
X11R3 with local hacks.  we have full source.
  we use these workstations for all kinds of tasks; the students use
them as a general computing facility, the staff uses them to develop
software, internet access, research, usenet, xtetris, etc., etc.
  in the early days, we weren't particularly pleased (to the point
that software development was a problem because none of the developers
wanted to use RTs).  this is now no longer true; for the past year
(since the APC upgrades happened) the RT became the hardware of choice
for our developers (but not for long ... we just got a shipment of
P?AXes waiting to be uncrated :>)
  one more addition to my comments: we aren't real pleased that there
aren't real workable compilers for the RT.  high c washes out when you
need it most.  the f77 isn't much better ...

<tim@cs.wisc.edu> Tim Theisen
  We have 43 RT's in the Computer Sciences Department.  20 are used
for instructional purposes (In a lab for student use.)  The rest are
in graduate students offices.
  The Faculty Support Center has 2 RT's running AOS.
  There are 3 in the College of Engineering, and 1 in the School of Pharmacy.

<jparnas@ibm.com> Jacob Parnas
  At IBM Research in Yorktown Heights NY, the math department
maintains about 45 RTs using 4.3 BSD UNIX (AOS).  We have been very
happy with this operating system.  Some features that we really
appreciate are full 4.3 BSD, source code available for practically all
utilities and the kernel, good X11R3, the andrew toolkit, NFS, good
asynch support, complete online manuals and documentation, and easily
available fixes distributed on usenet.  The 800 USC technical support
number is useful for quick help with system problems.  Most public
domain software built for BSD UNIX systems builds and runs on AOS with
little or no modification.  What I like most about AOS is that it is
4.3 BSD to the core and not System V with some BSD goodies patched on
as an afterthought.
  Charlie Slater, Eric Brunner, and Jeff Weinstein at IBM Palo Alto
have been very helpful in helping to fix the few problems that we have
had.
  We use these RTs for almost all of our computing including operating
systems research, networking tool development, networking kernel
research, SLIP, usenet, mail, gateways, printing, editing, text
formatting, internet access, VM terminal emulation, graphing...
  I think that AOS has improved greatly in 1989.  Most of the problems
that I've had with it in the past have been fixed (high speed serial
line support (thanks to Charlie Slater), X11R3 (not perfect, but
overall quite good with the Megapel, and the C compiler among other
parts of the OS have been greatly improved.
  I highly recommend trying 4.3 AOS, if it is available to you.

<scott@longs.lance.colostate.edu> Scott Douglas
  We have one RT, and it runs AOS.  I threatened to quit if AIX wasn't
removed from our realm.  The RT is part of a 190 node
UNIX/TCP-IP/NFS/YP/eieio network.  It seems to work just fine.  No
complaints.  Not much usage.  We plan to add a large ESDI disk (600MB)
very soon.  The 105MB disk plus an NFS partition is too restrictive.

<end>

brunner@bullhead.uucp (01/17/90)

Hello everyone,

I've reserved a time slot for an IBM/4.3 (aka "ACIS") BoF, Wednesday from
8pm until 10pm. This will follow the two-hour USENIX Association reception.
The room location will be announced on the various notice boards and in the
daily newsletter.

Bill Webb, Larry Breed, Conrad Minshall, Charlie Slater, and several others
from IBM Palo Alto will be available for taking questions and suggestions.
I expect that we'll cover the existing support system, the status of the
various compilers, 3rd party drives, NSFnet's use of the platform for
the national net, and take questions.

I selected this date to avoid schedule confilicts with Len Tower's GNU BoF,
the Transarc's Andrew File System BoF, and Peter Salus' report on the OSF,
all scheduled for Tuesday, and the UUNET and CSRG BoFs scheduled on Thursday.

See you in WDC!


Eric Brunner, Consultant, IBM AWD Palo Alto	(415) 855-4486
inet: brunner@monet.berkeley.edu
uucp: uunet!ibmsupt!brunner	

steven@pacific.csl.uiuc.edu (Steven Parkes) (01/20/90)

> I've reserved a time slot for an IBM/4.3 (aka "ACIS") BoF, Wednesday from
> 8pm until 10pm.

Can somebody who goes to this (or to IBM in general ...) ask about the
future of AOS/ACIS ... the X11R4 config/ibm stuff has stuff all over it
that says "this is the last release that will support 4.3 ..."