ericm@ibmpa (02/16/90)
ok, here's the offical product announcement...
this'll give y'all more things to speculate on.
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HIGH-PERFORMANCE RISC WORKSTATION FAMILY ANNOUNCED
IBM today announced the RISC System/6000* family -- a series of nine
high-performance workstations and servers that offer customers on the
leading edge of technology the power and solutions they are seeking
for computing's most advanced, sophisticated challenges.
Based on IBM's new POWER (Performance Optimization With Enhanced
RISC) Architecture, the family includes the industry's highest desktop
workstation performance at more than 27 million instructions per second
(MIPS) and 7 million floating-point operations per second (MFLOPS).
With complete system prices starting at $12,995, it also offers
industry-leading price/performance.
The nine POWERstations and POWERservers -- with top performance of
41 MIPS and 13 MFLOPS -- are designed to work in heterogeneous, open
systems networks with workstations from IBM and other manufacturers.
They will be supported by hundreds of third-party applications and
backed by IBM's service and support network.
This performance is supported by an aggressive software developer
program to aid software developers in porting their products to the
new family. To date, this program has resulted in commitments to port
more than 600 applications worldwide in areas ranging from mechanical
and electrical design to structural mechanics and computer-aided
software engineering.
"The RISC System/6000 family brings unprecedented power to the desks
of scientists, engineers, designers and other professionals," said
George H. Conrades, IBM senior vice president and general manager, US
Marketing & Services. "It enables our customers to do more, whether
their POWERstations are operating on their own, interconnected with a
mainframe or sharing the resources of a distributed computing
environment. Today, we are joined by hundreds of IBM Business Partners
and software developers in offering our customers the industry's most
advanced workstation solution."
The four-member POWERstation family and the five POWERservers
feature a high-performance implementation of IBM's Micro Channel bus
architecture, and are designed to exploit a new version of AIX --
IBM's implementation of the UNIX operating system -- also announced
today. The family is complemented by the new Xstation 120, a very
low-priced X server terminal, giving users concurrent access to a
variety of applications.
The RISC System/6000 family achieves its premium performance with
three major technical advances: a new superscalar processor capable
of executing multiple instructions in a single cycle; the industry's
most advanced RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computer) floating-point
processor for numeric-intensive applications, such as quantitative
analysis, and optimized 3-D graphics capabilities for such complex
applications as visualization and mapping.
"The RISC System/6000 family is the latest example of our continuing
drive to bring the benefits of advancing technology to our customers,"
said IBM President Jack D. Kuehler. "Today's announcement
demonstrates our continuing commitment to open systems and industry
standards, and our determination to become a leader in the workstation
and open systems environment."
RISC System/6000 Family
The family begins with the RISC System/6000 POWERstation 320, the most
powerful desktop workstation available. It has a rated performance of
27.5 MIPS and 7.4 MFLOPS, with a complete system starting at $12,995.
The POWER Architecture and advanced IBM CMOS microprocessor design
combine to achieve this exceptional level of performance.
The workstation family also includes the deskside POWERstations 520
and 530, offering greater memory and disk storage capacity. These
systems provide performance of up to 34.5 MIPS and 10.9 MFLOPS.
The POWERstation 730, with an integrated Supergraphics Processor
Subsystem, is a deskside unit that combines extensive high-function,
3-D graphics with a high-performance superscalar RISC workstation.
Its capabilities include a shading processor for solid modeling and
other 3-D engineering designs.
The RISC System/6000 family is especially rich in graphics capability.
Four new graphics adapters range from grayscale to high-function 3-D,
allowing customers to implement solutions ranging from desktop
publishing to mechanical design to 3-D animated visualization of
scientific phenomena.
The RISC System/6000 family also includes five high-performance
servers with prices starting at $20,375. The POWERservers 320, 520,
530, 540 and 930 can be configured either as LAN-attached servers
for multiple users -- compute server or file server -- or as
multi-user systems using ASCII terminals or Xstation 120s. These
systems offer performance of up to 41 MIPS and 13 MFLOPS. The MFLOPS
rating is several times faster than other servers in this price class.
New AIX Version
AIX Version 3 for RISC System/6000 is an outstanding UNIX operating
environment and software development platform. While conforming to
open software standards, it includes many new and improved features,
such as physical disk space management, advanced file system and
program management facilities, extended realtime support and enhanced
virtual memory.
The new UNIX implementation will provide a windowed hypertext
retrieval system that offers a versatile and innovative approach to
providing customers with access to online publications and help
information. Documentation is available on a 5.25-inch compact disc
(CD-ROM) that may be accessed from the user's POWERstation or from a
network POWERserver.
User Interfaces
IBM announced industry-leading graphical user interfaces: AIXwindows
Environment/6000, based on the OSF/Motif graphical user interface
from the Open Software Foundation; and AIX NextStep Environment/6000,
based on the innovative NextStep environment from NeXT Inc.
AIXwindows Environment/6000 and AIX NextStep Environment/6000 will be
available as separate licensed programs. Customers can choose the
interface most applicable to their environments.
Service and Support
Each POWERstation and POWERserver will be backed by IBM service and
support. IBM announced a one-year warranty that includes 24-hour,
seven-day-a-week availability of hardware service. Full software
service is included in the license charge.
In addition, IBM has significantly increased its number of skilled
systems engineers to assist customers in the design, configuration,
installation and support of the RISC System/6000 family.
IBM also announced SystemXtra for the RISC System/6000 family, a fee
service offering that provides a total service solution after system
installation. It includes a 24-hour, seven-day-a-week telephone hot
line for hardware and software problems and usage assistance, in
addition to onsite installation of software maintenance.
A number of IBM manufacturing and development sites were involved in
today's announcement, including: Austin, Texas; Basingstoke, United
Kingdom; Boca Raton, Florida; Bordeaux, France; Burlington, Vermont;
Charlotte, North Carolina; East Fishkill, New York; Endicott, New York;
Essonnes, France; Fujisawa, Japan; Haifa, Israel; Havant, United
Kingdom; Hursley, United Kingdom; Kingston, New York; Lexington,
Kentucky; Manassas, Virginia; North Harbour, United Kingdom;
Poughkeepsie, New York; Raleigh, North Carolina; Rochester, Minnesota;
San Jose, California; Santa Palomba, Italy; Sindelfingen, West Germany;
Toronto, Canada; Vimercate, Italy; Yamato, Japan and Yorktown, New York.
*Trademarks: RISC System/6000 is a trademark of International
Business Machines Corporation.
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eric murray ibmsupt!ericm@uunet.uu.net {ucbvax,uunet}!ibmsupt!ericm
KILL YOUR TELEVISION!gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) (02/19/90)
> . . . POWERstations and POWERservers . . . I like the way they adopted the Sun Marketing naming convention (SPARCstations and SPARCservers). > . . . a complete system starting at $12,995. Including OS and window system? Manuals? Ethernet? Compilers? In the original RT/PC announcement a few years ago, the lowball price didn't even include a keyboard or monitor, which cost $thousands! One analysis showed that if Sun had charged as much for Unix as IBM, they could've thrown in the workstation for free! Also, one breakdown I saw was that this system only has four slots -- and all of them are in use. No expandability. > Documentation is available on a 5.25-inch compact disc > (CD-ROM) that may be accessed from the user's POWERstation or from a > network POWERserver. At extra cost > IBM announced industry-leading graphical user interfaces . . . > available as separate licensed programs. Customers can choose the > interface most applicable to their environments. At extra cost > IBM announced a one-year warranty that includes 24-hour, > seven-day-a-week availability of hardware service. Full software > service is included in the license charge. License charge? For a warranty? Oh, I get it! If you buy the Unix from them, you are forced to buy full software support for it! Well, no problem, I'm sure there are lots of third party vendors selling Unix for the RIOS... > In addition, IBM has significantly increased its number of skilled > systems engineers to assist customers in the design, configuration, > installation and support of the RISC System/6000 family. I heard from a usually reliable source that there are TWO people in the Bay Area who are trained to configure and repair these machines. That's a "significant increase" from last year, when there were NONE! > IBM also announced SystemXtra for the RISC System/6000 family, a fee > service . . . . . . . . . . . . total service solution . . . At extra cost. -- John Gilmore {sun,pacbell,uunet,pyramid}!hoptoad!gnu gnu@toad.com Just say *yes* to drugs. If someone offers you a drug war, just say no.
adam@ncifcrf.gov (Adam W. Feigin) (02/19/90)
In article <10307@hoptoad.uucp> gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes: >> . . . POWERstations and POWERservers . . . > >I like the way they adopted the Sun Marketing naming convention >(SPARCstations and SPARCservers). Well, since they licensed the graphics technology from SGI, and they call their machines the "POWER Series" and IBM is going after Sun and their SPARCstations/servers, its natural that IBM should call their machines in this manner. > >> . . . a complete system starting at $12,995. > >Including OS and window system? Manuals? Ethernet? Compilers? In >the original RT/PC announcement a few years ago, the lowball price >didn't even include a keyboard or monitor, which cost $thousands! One >analysis showed that if Sun had charged as much for Unix as IBM, they >could've thrown in the workstation for free! Correct. The base price does NOT include OS & Window system or ethernet (I assume that you get manuals & compilers with the OS, but I could be wrong, and I certainly wouldn't put it past IBM NOT to include them, and charge extra for them, as they have a nasty habit of doing). I did notice that in the glossy that the 3-button mouse and keyboard are marked as "optional products".. Nice, very nice, looks like IBM is up to their old tricks again. They never learn, do they ?? (BTW the price sheet I have show the OS + X-Window System at $2000) >Also, one breakdown I saw was that this system only has four slots -- >and all of them are in use. No expandability. I'm not sure about this, but the base system comes with a 120MB DBA ("Direct Bus Attached" -- whatever that means) disk; I dont know if you need a slot for a controller, but if you want to add more disk, you gotta buy a controller. Lets not forget a slot for ethernet (optional), a slot for graphics (you really dont want to see anything, do you ??, you can just watch the blinkin' lights...) >> Documentation is available on a 5.25-inch compact disc >> (CD-ROM) that may be accessed from the user's POWERstation or from a >> network POWERserver. > >At extra cost Of course !! It will be a cold day in hell when the temperature is below freezing when IBM gets serious about the Unix/Workstation market. -- Internet: adam@ncifcrf.gov Adam W. Feigin UUCP: {backbonz}!ncifcrf!adam Senior Systems Manager Mail: P.O. Box B, Bldg 430 National Cancer Institute-Supercomputer Center Frederick, MD 21701 Frederick Cancer Research Facility
mccarty@hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu (James E. McCarty) (02/20/90)
There seems to be some confusion about what is and isn't included
in the basic POWERstation 320 configuration. This information is
from the "RISC System/6000 Quick Pricer" (IBM Manual G320-9881).
"POWERstation 320 -- Disktop Workstations
The following configurations include, unless otherwise noted, a
1280 x 1024 graphics display, Ethernet, keyboard, 3-button mouse,
AIX Version 3 for RISC System/6000 operating system (1-2 user)
and graphical user interface, software service and one-year
hardware warranty service.
Description Price
Monochrome Workstations
1. POWERstation 320, 19" Mono Display, Grayscale $12,995
Graphics Display Adapter, 8MB RAM, 120MB Disk
Color Workstations
2. POWERstation 320, 16" Color Display, Color $15,030
Graphics Adapter, 8MB RAM, 120MB Disk
3. POWERstation 320, 19" Color Display, Color $15,330
Graphics Adapter, 8MB RAM, 120MB Disk"
Also, the information I received indicated that the 4 slots in
the base model were all available.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim McCarty This are my opinions only and do not reflect
Leader VM Systems the opinions of my employer or IBM
IRCC, OSU
----------------------------------------------------------------------schafer@brazos.rice.edu (Richard A. Schafer) (02/20/90)
In article <10307@hoptoad.uucp>, gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes: > > . . . POWERstations and POWERservers . . . > > I like the way they adopted the Sun Marketing naming convention > (SPARCstations and SPARCservers). > > > . . . a complete system starting at $12,995. > > Including OS and window system? Manuals? Ethernet? Compilers? In > the original RT/PC announcement a few years ago, the lowball price > didn't even include a keyboard or monitor, which cost $thousands! One > analysis showed that if Sun had charged as much for Unix as IBM, they > could've thrown in the workstation for free! I just signed on IBMLINK and ran a configuration on the standard grayscale configuration. I don't come up with the $12,995 price, but did produce the following configuration: Powerstation 320 $7475 120MB disk $1950 Grayscale adapter $1395 keyboard $ 255 mouse $ 130 mono display $1295 ------ Hardware total, $12,500 AIX 3.0 $1250 AIX Xwindows $ 500 ------ Software total, $ 1,750 Package total, $14,250 > Also, one breakdown I saw was that this system only has four slots -- > and all of them are in use. No expandability. The system described above has 3 slots still available. > > Documentation is available on a 5.25-inch compact disc > > (CD-ROM) that may be accessed from the user's POWERstation or from a > > network POWERserver. > > At extra cost Or in the traditional hard-copy form for no additional cost. > > IBM announced industry-leading graphical user interfaces . . . > > available as separate licensed programs. Customers can choose the > > interface most applicable to their environments. > > At extra cost Yep, since they allow you to choose Ethernet or Token-Ring adapters, these are optional items. In addition, you can configure the machine as an asynch timesharing machine, which a host of asynch adapters. So I don't think it's unreasonable to do it this way. > > > IBM announced a one-year warranty that includes 24-hour, > > seven-day-a-week availability of hardware service. Full software > > service is included in the license charge. > > License charge? For a warranty? Oh, I get it! If you buy the Unix > from them, you are forced to buy full software support for it! Well, > no problem, I'm sure there are lots of third party vendors selling Unix > for the RIOS... Excuse me? You're objecting to having software support included as part of the $1,250 purchase price for AIX? Given what I remember about SUN pricing, software support included in a $1,250 purchase price for AIX doesn't sound too bad to me. > > > In addition, IBM has significantly increased its number of skilled > > systems engineers to assist customers in the design, configuration, > > installation and support of the RISC System/6000 family. > > I heard from a usually reliable source that there are TWO people > in the Bay Area who are trained to configure and repair these machines. > That's a "significant increase" from last year, when there were NONE! > > > IBM also announced SystemXtra for the RISC System/6000 family, a fee > > service . . . . . . . . . . . . total service solution . . . > > At extra cost. Yep, and considering what SystemXtra is, they'd be crazy to give it away. SystemXtra is essentially a "we do all the hardware and software maintenance for you, answer end-user questions, etc." arrangement. While I have no interest in it, if I wanted that kind of hand-holding, I'd sure be prepared to pay for it. > -- > John Gilmore {sun,pacbell,uunet,pyramid}!hoptoad!gnu gnu@toad.com > Just say *yes* to drugs. If someone offers you a drug war, just say no. I just ran a slightly different configuration, getting a non-standard package with an Ethernet adapter and the CD-ROM player thrown in. Here's what you get: Powerstation 320 $7475 120MB disk $1950 grayscale adapter $1395 scsi controller $1200 ethernet adapter $ 695 keyboard $ 255 mouse $ 130 CD-ROM drive $1695 mono display $1295 ----- Hardware total, $16,090 (this configuration leaves 1 slot available, having added the Ethernet card and SCSI card to the previous configuration.) AIX $1250 CD-ROM hypertext $ 115 AIXWindows $ 500 ----- Software total, $1,865 (Interesting note: the standard shipment comes with the software preloaded, and you do not get actual diskette copies unless you make them yourself. You can purchase the "backup copy option" for the software listed above for an additional $400, which gets you diskette copies sent with the shipment.) Package total, $17,955 I still haven't found what they're including in the $12,995 price, but presumably it's the hardware listed in the first configuration above, plus something that costs $495. :-) Richard
schafer@brazos.rice.edu (Richard A. Schafer) (02/20/90)
In article <1514@fcs280s.ncifcrf.gov>, adam@ncifcrf.gov (Adam W. Feigin) writes: > Correct. The base price does NOT include OS & Window system or > ethernet (I assume that you get manuals & compilers with the OS, but I > could be wrong, and I certainly wouldn't put it past IBM NOT to > include them, and charge extra for them, as they have a nasty habit of > doing). I did notice that in the glossy that the 3-button mouse and > keyboard are marked as "optional products".. Nice, very nice, looks You get a C compiler with AIX, and perhaps f77; if you want their better fortran compiler, you have to order it separate. Pascal, COBOL, and ADA compilers are also separately packaged. > like IBM is up to their old tricks again. They never learn, do they ?? I don't know about that. For the performance quoted, a reasonably configured system still looks like a pretty good deal compared to SUN or DEC prices. (I don't yet know what our educational discount will be.) > (BTW the price sheet I have show the OS + X-Window System at $2000) > > >Also, one breakdown I saw was that this system only has four slots -- > >and all of them are in use. No expandability. Yes, four slots. No, not all in use. For $12,500, you can get a system with 3 slots available that has a processor, keyboard, display, mouse, and 120MB external disk. Adding an Ethernet adapter takes one more, still leaving 2. > I'm not sure about this, but the base system comes with a 120MB > DBA ("Direct Bus Attached" -- whatever that means) disk; I dont know > if you need a slot for a controller, but if you want to add more disk, > you gotta buy a controller. Lets not forget a slot for ethernet > (optional), a slot for graphics (you really dont want to see anything, > do you ??, you can just watch the blinkin' lights...) Yes, the disk does seem to take a slot, as well as the ethernet adapter. If you want to add more disk, I'd suggest a SCSI controller, rather than adding a direct attach disk controller per disk. The graphics adapter does not appear to take a "slot", from running the configuration program. > >> Documentation is available on a 5.25-inch compact disc > >> (CD-ROM) that may be accessed from the user's POWERstation or from a > >> network POWERserver. > > > >At extra cost You'd expect it for free, maybe? Hardcopy docs in the traditional binder format are provided with the product. Only the hypertext software and CD-ROM player are at extra cost. The hypertext software does allow you to create your own hypertext files and store them either on disk or (if you're wealthy enough create a CD-ROM of your own and read them from there.) I saw an early version of this code demonstrated, and it looked pretty slick. > Of course !! > > It will be a cold day in hell when the temperature is below freezing > when IBM gets serious about the Unix/Workstation market. I sure don't understand why you think this is a non-serious attempt. Given the prices versus performance, the product looks pretty serious to me. Richard
dcm@toysrus.uucp (dcm) (02/20/90)
In article <10307@hoptoad.uucp> gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes: > >I like the way they adopted the Sun Marketing naming convention >(SPARCstations and SPARCservers). Who knows? Maybe someone at Sun heard about the new IBM machines and thought "what a great naming convention!" :-) >> . . . a complete system starting at $12,995. > >Including OS and window system? Manuals? Ethernet? Compilers? In >the original RT/PC announcement a few years ago, the lowball price >didn't even include a keyboard or monitor, which cost $thousands! One Have anyone seen a pricelist yet? Does anyone know what the minimal configuration includes? I don't... The nice thing about packaging is that it gives customers complete flexibility about what they get. The other option, which some computer manufacturers have taken advantage of, is to charge $X over the 'minimal configuration' and include the world, thereby forcing each and every customer to pay the $X regardless of what they want. Which way is better? Hell, I don't know. I personally like the packaging. As long as it's easy to get the packages I need and they're affordable, who needs *everything*? Not every customer... >analysis showed that if Sun had charged as much for Unix as IBM, they >could've thrown in the workstation for free! Well, as everyone has pointed out, the RT was probably a flop. IBM is at least attempting to learn from their mistakes and do it better this time. I can tell you they're serious about it. All we ever hear around here is "got to be better than the RT in every way". I'm almost getting sick and tired of hearing it. It *is* a major consideration. >Also, one breakdown I saw was that this system only has four slots -- >and all of them are in use. No expandability. What are the four slots being used for in the configuration you saw? >> Documentation is available on a 5.25-inch compact disc >> (CD-ROM) that may be accessed from the user's POWERstation or from a >> network POWERserver. > >At extra cost I'm pretty sure they'll have on-line man pages too. I don't think they'll force you to buy the CD-ROM to run 'man'. > >> IBM announced industry-leading graphical user interfaces . . . >> available as separate licensed programs. Customers can choose the >> interface most applicable to their environments. > >At extra cost Well, at least the customer can *choose* their interface. They're not forced to pay for one(s) they don't want. > >> IBM announced a one-year warranty that includes 24-hour, >> seven-day-a-week availability of hardware service. Full software >> service is included in the license charge. > >License charge? For a warranty? Oh, I get it! If you buy the Unix >from them, you are forced to buy full software support for it! The way I read this paragraph is "the AIXV3 license charge will include full software service". I'm not sure about the hardware service. I imagine they'll do what everyone does: offer a service contract. >I heard from a usually reliable source that there are TWO people >in the Bay Area who are trained to configure and repair these machines. >That's a "significant increase" from last year, when there were NONE! Then again, the RS/6000 isn't being released in volume yet. Give them a chance to get service people in place around the country. They're smart enough to know that service is very important. Possibly important enough to make or break the product. >> IBM also announced SystemXtra for the RISC System/6000 family, a fee >> service . . . . . . . . . . . . total service solution . . . > >At extra cost. Don't most computer manufacturers offer a service program at a cost? Or are they all free? >John Gilmore {sun,pacbell,uunet,pyramid}!hoptoad!gnu gnu@toad.com My point was not to stick up for IBM (or bash John). At this point, I have nothing to gain from the success/failure of the RS/6000. I think we should wait and see how it turns out. Maybe IBM did learn something from the RT experience. Maybe not. If it flops, then bash all you want. I'll join you! But at least give them a chance... Craig Miller p.s. obviously, I'm not a spokesman for IBM. Anything I said is IMHO. -------- Craig Miller contractor @ IBM Austin UUCP: ..!cs.utexas.edu!ibmaus!auschs!toysrus.austin.ibm.com!dcm "I don't believe in .signatures."
dcm@toysrus.uucp (dcm) (02/20/90)
In article <1514@fcs280s.ncifcrf.gov> adam@fcs260c.UUCP (Adam W. Feigin) writes: > >It will be a cold day in hell when the temperature is below freezing >when IBM gets serious about the Unix/Workstation market. Do you have any idea how many $$ they've spent on this one? How many people? How much time? Where you ever associated with this project? Anyone who was associated will tell you the same thing: they're *very* serious about this one. They really do want to do it right this time. IBM recognizes this will change their future, succeed or fail. Craig p.s. I'm not a IBM spokesman. I speak only for myself. -------- Craig Miller contractor @ IBM Austin UUCP: ..!cs.utexas.edu!ibmaus!auschs!toysrus.austin.ibm.com!dcm "I don't believe in .signatures."
ron@woan.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S. Woan/2100000) (02/20/90)
From the marketing announcement that I have, it looks like a base workstation package will run $14,250+$695=$14945 for the base desktop model with (8MB RAM, 120MB Hard Disk, Keyboard, Mouse, AIX3, AIXwindows, NFS, 4-bit greyscale adapter, 19-inch monochrome monitor). I assume that, as was with the RT, manuals and all such are included with this. Oh yeah, one year warranty (not bad considering the 90day standard) tossed in with all this. Not a bad price, even so, considering 27.5 MIPS (peak 100) and 7.5MFLOPS. That works out to be $543.45/MIP system cost which is the lowest in the industry, even among name brand 386/486 PCs, I believe. Data General seems to be runnerup with their 88K based system. Remeber IBM also offers the JMB and NeXtStep interfaces (additional charge, but available). +-----All Views Expressed Are My Own And Are Not Necessarily Shared By------+ +------------------------------My Employer----------------------------------+ + Ronald S. Woan (IBM VNET)WOAN AT AUSTIN, (AUSTIN)ron@woan.austin.ibm.com + + outside of IBM @cs.utexas.edu:ibmchs!auschs!woan.austin.ibm.com!ron + + last resort woan@peyote.cactus.org +
jet@karazm.math.uh.edu (J. Eric Townsend) (02/20/90)
First off, the sales rep told me that I could buy GNU Emacs and that X for AIX 3.0 would cost around $500. I think IBM sales reps don't know how to deal with $0.00 in the price column, or what public domain (or freely distributable) code is.. In article <10307@hoptoad.uucp> gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes: >> . . . a complete system starting at $12,995. >Including OS and window system? Manuals? Ethernet? Compilers? In Nope. "X server software" is $500, plus $50 for each terminal... -- J. Eric Townsend University of Houston Dept. of Mathematics (713) 749-2120 jet@karazm.math.uh.edu Skate UNIX(tm).
ron@woan.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S. Woan/2100000) (02/20/90)
In article <1990Feb19.213357.7340@lavaca.uh.edu>, jet@karazm.math.uh.edu (J. Eric Townsend) writes: |>First off, the sales rep told me that I could buy GNU Emacs and that |>X for AIX 3.0 would cost around $500. I didn't see the charge for GNU EMACS, but if I understand the GPL, we can't charge more than a minor media and handling fee without restriction of copying from your neighbor. Youch! I looked and our distrbution charge is $125! I guess we have a lot of distribution overhead (manual maybe?) Heck I would suggest that you just roll your own or get it from your neighbor ($125 over 25 workstations wouldn't be bad)... |>"X server software" is $500, plus $50 for each terminal... Every major manufacturer charges for their own X-Window product to cover porting (one heck of an optimization job too) and distribution costs (don't forget full manual set). The $50/terminal results from the brain-dead Motif licensing fees (call OSF up, they'll say they charge $50/term no matter the platform too), so no profit there. All I can say is that my earlier numbers were correct and nowhere will you find a cheaper buck/MIP ratio from a major manufacturer, and our service will be second to none. Ron +-----All Views Expressed Are My Own And Are Not Necessarily Shared By------+ +------------------------------My Employer----------------------------------+ + Ronald S. Woan (IBM VNET)WOAN AT AUSTIN, (AUSTIN)ron@woan.austin.ibm.com + + outside of IBM @cs.utexas.edu:ibmchs!auschs!woan.austin.ibm.com!ron + + last resort woan@peyote.cactus.org +
mjt@nagshead.ncsc.org (Mike Tighe) (02/20/90)
In article <1990Feb19.213357.7340@lavaca.uh.edu> jet@karazm.math.uh.edu (J. Eric Townsend) writes: > > >First off, the sales rep told me that I could buy GNU Emacs and that Hmmm. I did not think the GNU Public License allowed allowed the sale of GNU Emacs. It is free software. Also, the source code must also be provided too. -- --- Michael Tighe, mjt@ncsc.org
bradley@grip.cis.upenn.edu (John Bradley) (02/21/90)
Yes, but has anybody actually PLAYED with these things? I attended the Philadelphia unveiling and got to try out a 320, a 530, and an X terminal. All three of them exhibited X performance that ranged from mediocre to sluglike, depending on the operation. In particular NONE of the three beasties could move bits to/from the screen quickly enough. (as in, displaying/refreshing an image, and scrolling a region) The scrolling was particularly bad, mainly because it's the thing you're most likely to be using. I was unable to scroll an 80x24 xterm (say a resolution of approx 600x350 (or so)) at much better than 2-3 lines per second. This is right up there with a color Sun running the original cfb code from X11R1... While I can think of a host of reasons why it might be slow on the 320 and the 530 (lots of annoying background jobs, or something), the Xterminal was just as slow. I killed all other clients that were going to the Xterm, and it STILL couldn't scroll the screen at an acceptable rate, making me think the thing is utterly useless. Anyhow, I can't imagine HOW IBM could make the X server SO slow. The X11R4 server for my RT 125 Megapel is MUCH faster... Or, perhaps the machines here were set up by complete bozos... John Bradley - University of Pennsylvania - GRASP Lab
griefer@adg.almaden.ibm.com (Allan D. Griefer) (02/21/90)
The following prices are accurate to the best of my knowledge, but should
not be used without checking with an IBM Salesperson.
UNIT MDL/FC DESCRIPTION QTY COST
7012-320 IBM RISC/6000 PWRSTA/SVR 320 1 7475.00P
2760 GRAYSCALE GRAPH DISP ADPT 1 1395.00P
2980 ETHERNET HIGH PERF LAN ADPTR 1 695.00P
6010 KEYBD 101 KEYS U.S. 1 255.00P
6041 3-BUTTON MOUSE 1 130.00P
8508-001 PS/2 MONOCHROME DISPLAY 1 1295.00P
HARDWARE TOTALS 11245.00*
5756-030 AIX V3 FOR RISC SYSTEM/6000 1
0200 BASIC OTC 1-2 UL GRP E5 1 1250.00
5151 ENCRYPTION FEATURE 1
5601-257 AIXWINDOWS ENVIRONMENT/6000 1
0173 BASIC OTC GROUP E5 1 500.00
SOFTWARE TOTALS 1750.00*
GRAND TOTAL 12995.00
This is not a complete list of order features as it doesn't include a bunch
of no cost option information. This configuration has 120MB disk, 8MB of
memory and two free slots. It comes with the complete AIX 3 for 1-2 users
and includes AIXWindows which includes X and MOTIF.
I hope this straightens out some of the misconceptions about what you get
for $12,995. It is, in fact a complete system.
Opinions are strictly my own,
Allan D. Griefer, IBM Almaden Research Center, San Jose, CA
BITNET: GRIEFER at ALMADEN Internet: griefer@ibm.com
UUCP: ...!uunet!ibmarc!griefer mcimail: 398-8024ehrlich@cs.psu.edu (Daniel Ehrlich) (02/22/90)
In article <20635@netnews.upenn.edu> bradley@grip.cis.upenn.edu (John Bradley) writes:
John> Yes, but has anybody actually PLAYED with these things? I attended the
John> Philadelphia unveiling and got to try out a 320, a 530, and an X terminal.
Yes. We have one here in the Computer Science Department.
John> All three of them exhibited X performance that ranged from mediocre to
John> sluglike, depending on the operation.
What IBM told us when we complained about the performance of the X software
was that there is a large amount of debugging code that is still in place
but will be removed by the time the product really ships. Wink, wink,
nudge, nudge. ;-)
John> In particular NONE of the three beasties could move bits to/from the screen
John> quickly enough. (as in, displaying/refreshing an image, and scrolling a
John> region)
Actually we can make the X server crash on demand my moving the mouse
quickly while keying the buttons in rapid succession.
John> The scrolling was particularly bad, mainly because it's the thing you're
John> most likely to be using. I was unable to scroll an 80x24 xterm (say a
John> resolution of approx 600x350 (or so)) at much better than 2-3 lines per second.
John> This is right up there with a color Sun running the original cfb code from
John> X11R1...
John> While I can think of a host of reasons why it might be slow on the 320 and
John> the 530 (lots of annoying background jobs, or something), the Xterminal was
John> just as slow. I killed all other clients that were going to the Xterm, and
John> it STILL couldn't scroll the screen at an acceptable rate, making me think the
John> thing is utterly useless.
Not to mention exspensive. The ~$US 2K price IBM is touting is without a
monitor!
John> Anyhow, I can't imagine HOW IBM could make the X server SO slow. The X11R4
John> server for my RT 125 Megapel is MUCH faster...
It is all that debugging code. ;-)
John> Or, perhaps the machines here were set up by complete bozos...
John> John Bradley - University of Pennsylvania - GRASP Lab
--
Dan Ehrlich <ehrlich@cs.psu.edu>
Voice: +1 814 863 1142 FAX: +1 814 865 3176drake@sd2.almaden.ibm.com (Sam Drake) (02/22/90)
In article <1656@speedy.mcnc.org> mjt@nagshead.ncsc.org (Mike Tighe) writes: >In article <1990Feb19.213357.7340@lavaca.uh.edu> jet@karazm.math.uh.edu (J. Eric Townsend) writes: >>First off, the sales rep told me that I could buy GNU Emacs and that >Hmmm. I did not think the GNU Public License allowed allowed the sale of >GNU Emacs. It is free software. Also, the source code must also be provided >too. You are not allowed to SELL GNU Emacs, but you are allowed to charge a reasonable fee to duplicate it. IBM's fee to duplicate GNU Emacs for you ($125) is, I believe, less than the fee that the FSF charges to do the same thing, and this is perfectly fine according to the copyleft. Opinions are my own.... Sam Drake / IBM Almaden Research Center Internet: drake@ibm.com BITNET: DRAKE at ALMADEN Usenet: ...!uunet!ibmarc!drake Phone: (408) 927-1861
ibmjb@garnet.berkeley.edu (02/22/90)
In article <1514@fcs280s.ncifcrf.gov> adam@fcs260c.UUCP (Adam W. Feigin) writes: >In article <10307@hoptoad.uucp> gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes: >>> . . . POWERstations and POWERservers . . . >> >>I like the way they adopted the Sun Marketing naming convention >>(SPARCstations and SPARCservers). > >Well, since they licensed the graphics technology from SGI, and they >call their machines the "POWER Series" and IBM is going after Sun and >their SPARCstations/servers, its natural that IBM should call their >machines in this manner. > >> >>> . . . a complete system starting at $12,995. >> >>Including OS and window system? Manuals? Ethernet? Compilers? In >>the original RT/PC announcement a few years ago, the lowball price >>didn't even include a keyboard or monitor, which cost $thousands! One >>analysis showed that if Sun had charged as much for Unix as IBM, they >>could've thrown in the workstation for free! > >Correct. The base price does NOT include OS & Window system or >ethernet (I assume that you get manuals & compilers with the OS, but I >could be wrong, and I certainly wouldn't put it past IBM NOT to >include them, and charge extra for them, as they have a nasty habit of >doing). I did notice that in the glossy that the 3-button mouse and >keyboard are marked as "optional products".. Nice, very nice, looks >like IBM is up to their old tricks again. They never learn, do they ?? > The OS and window system and ethernet are included. >(BTW the price sheet I have show the OS + X-Window System at $2000) > >>Also, one breakdown I saw was that this system only has four slots -- >>and all of them are in use. No expandability. > >I'm not sure about this, but the base system comes with a 120MB >DBA ("Direct Bus Attached" -- whatever that means) disk; I dont know >if you need a slot for a controller, but if you want to add more disk, >you gotta buy a controller. Lets not forget a slot for ethernet >(optional), a slot for graphics (you really dont want to see anything, >do you ??, you can just watch the blinkin' lights...) > Only one of the expansion slots is used in this configuration (display adapter). >>> Documentation is available on a 5.25-inch compact disc >>> (CD-ROM) that may be accessed from the user's POWERstation or from a >>> network POWERserver. >> >>At extra cost > >Of course !! > >It will be a cold day in hell when the temperature is below freezing >when IBM gets serious about the Unix/Workstation market. > The extra cost is only $115, which is pretty cheap if you ask me... Yes, IBM IS serious about the workstation business. Skeptics beware.
m1phm02@mfsws6.fed.frb.gov (Patrick H. McAllister) (02/23/90)
A lot of discussion has been going on about the processor performance of these machines, but I would also be interested in knowing something about I/O performance. Does anybody out in netland have any information that can be posted about the disk options? What types of disk, what types of controllers? Access time, transfer rates (in theory and in practice)? I/O performance would be an important consideration around here. Pat Pat McAllister m1phm02@fed.frb.gov (UUCP: uunet!fed!m1edb00 ATT, etc.: (202) 452-2443 snail mail: Federal Reserve Board, Washington, DC 20551)
kaiser@cheese.enet.dec.com (02/24/90)
In article <1565@awdprime.UUCP>, ron@woan.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S. Woan/2100000) writes... >Every major manufacturer charges for their own X-Window product to >cover porting (one heck of an optimization job too) and distribution >costs (don't forget full manual set). So far as I know, Digital doesn't charge separately for DECwindows on any DEC platform. (And GNU Emacs is included gratis on the "Unsupported" tape.) ---Pete kaiser@cheese.enet.dec.com +1 508 480 4345 (machine: +1 617 641 3450)
m1phm02@fed.FRB.GOV (Patrick H. McAllister) (02/24/90)
A lot of discussion has been going on about the processor performance of these machines, but I would also be interested in knowing something about I/O performance. Does anybody out in netland have any information that can be posted about the disk options? What types of disk, what types of controllers? Access time, transfer rates (in theory and in practice)? I/O performance would be an important consideration around here. Pat -- Pat McAllister m1phm02@fed.frb.gov (UUCP: uunet!fed!m1edb00 ATT, etc.: (202) 452-2443 snail mail: Federal Reserve Board, Washington, DC 20551) Pat McAllister m1phm02@fed.frb.gov (UUCP: uunet!fed!m1edb00 ATT, etc.: (202) 452-2443 snail mail: Federal Reserve Board, Washington, DC 20551)
ron@woan.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S. Woan/2100000) (02/25/90)
In article <542@arccs2.fed.FRB.GOV>, m1phm02@fed.FRB.GOV (Patrick H. McAllister) writes: |> A lot of discussion has been going on about the processor |> performance of these machines, but I would also be interested in |> knowing something about I/O performance. Does anybody out in |> netland have any information that can be posted about the disk |> options? What types of disk, what types of controllers? Access |> time, transfer rates (in theory and in practice)? I/O performance |> would be an important consideration around here. Your wish is our command. From the announcement that I have before me, here is a description of the two drives and adapters: 120MB Direct Attached Disk Drive #2120 Formatted Capacity 120MB Form factor 3.5-inch Average seek time 23.0ms Average latency 8.3ms Rotational speed 3600RPM Data transfer rate 1.27MB/sec. 320MB SCSI Disk Drive #2540 Formatted Capacity 320MB Form factor 3.5-inch Average seek time 12.5ms Average latency 7ms Rotational speed 4318RPM Data transfer rate 2.0MB/sec. Interface SCSI (single ended), synchronous And here is the SCSI adapter info: SCSI High-Performance Internal/External I/O Controller #2828 Up to two internal and two external devices conforms to ANSI document X3.131 -- 1986 accepts multiple commands/device at a time from system SCSI burst rate of 4MB/sec (synchronous protocal) Acts as SCSI initiator (command issuer) SCSI parity support One adapter/system Micro Channel Interface 4-byte (32-bit) Bus Master Streaming data support Address and data parity support Standard Micro Channel form factor card SCSI High-Performance External I/O Controller #2835 up to seven external devices conforms to ANSI document X3.131 -- 1986 accepts multiple commands/device at a time from system SCSI burst rate of 4MB/sec (synchronous protocal) Acts as SCSI initiator (command issuer) SCSI parity support up to two adapters/system Micro Channel Interface 4-byte (32-bit) Bus Master Streaming data support Address and data parity support Standard Micro Channel form factor card I believe the prices have already been given in past articles, so I won't take the time to look them up right now. Cheers, Ron +-----All Views Expressed Are My Own And Are Not Necessarily Shared By------+ +------------------------------My Employer----------------------------------+ + Ronald S. Woan (IBM VNET)WOAN AT AUSTIN, (AUSTIN)ron@woan.austin.ibm.com + + outside of IBM @cs.utexas.edu:ibmchs!auschs!woan.austin.ibm.com!ron + + last resort woan@peyote.cactus.org +
jaap@neptune.UUCP (Jaap Vermeulen) (02/28/90)
bradley@grip.cis.upenn.edu (John Bradley) writes: >Yes, but has anybody actually PLAYED with these things? I attended the >Philadelphia unveiling and got to try out a 320, a 530, and an X terminal. I tried the 320 and the X terminal. >All three of them exhibited X performance that ranged from mediocre to >sluglike, depending on the operation. I agree, plus that the server on the 320 has some ugly bugs (some pull down menus left holes, lines seem to disappear) and the X terminal lies about it display density (which makes an application that scales itself unusable). [...] >John Bradley - University of Pennsylvania - GRASP Lab I don't understand that a machine that powerful (it *really* is fast in compiling etc.) can be that slow when running X. -- "Some call me Jaaper" +--------------------------+ | The Jonathan Corporation | Internet : neptune!jaap@uunet.uu.net | Norfolk, Virginia | Uucp : ...uunet!neptune!jaap +--------------------------+
itoga@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu (Stephen Itoga) (03/02/90)
my understanding is that the demo software reflects the state of development as of sept/oct. there should be a new release in a couple of weeks. and the actual delivered software (june?) will reflect the state of development six weeks before release. hopefully there will be major improvements, but i suspect tuning will take awhile. question: i see a list price of $7,475 for a bare bones system 320 without any graphics card or monitor. anyone know what would be the appropriate low end crt that could be attached? would standard MCA boards for the ps2 series be compatible?
gnb@bby.oz.au (Gregory N. Bond) (03/06/90)
In article <542@arccs2.fed.FRB.GOV> m1phm02@fed.FRB.GOV (Patrick H. McAllister) writes:
A lot of discussion has been going on about the processor performance of
these machines, but I would also be interested in knowing something about
I/O performance. Does anybody out in netland have any information that
can be posted about the disk options? What types of disk, what types
of controllers? Access time, transfer rates (in theory and in practice)?
I/O performance would be an important consideration around here.
Disk I/O is _ALL_ SCSI. Even the biggest machines.
Disks come in 5 sizes, 120Mb -> 857Mb. Seek times down to 12.2 ms,
latency 6ms, transfer rate 1.2 to 3 MB/sec.
(Data from information pack handed out at Australian product launch)
--
Gregory Bond (gnb@melba.bby.oz), Burdett, Buckeridge & Young Ltd., Melbourne
The IBM dictionary: ``Open Systems'' - has a bastardized Unix and an optional
ethernet connector.
--
Gregory Bond, Burdett Buckeridge & Young Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
Internet: gnb@melba.bby.oz.au non-MX: gnb%melba.bby.oz@uunet.uu.net
Uucp: {uunet,pyramid,ubc-cs,ukc,mcvax,prlb2,nttlab...}!munnari!melba.bby.oz!gnb
--
Gregory Bond, Burdett Buckeridge & Young Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
Internet: gnb@melba.bby.oz.au non-MX: gnb%melba.bby.oz@uunet.uu.net
Uucp: {uunet,pyramid,ubc-cs,ukc,mcvax,prlb2,nttlab...}!munnari!melba.bby.oz!gnb