phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) (03/12/91)
I originally posted this to the NFS group and realized that perhaps it should be seen in these groups too. With Sun's release of PC-NFS 3.5, it appears that their product still does not come close to what PC networking should be. Can you chose printers from Windows 3.0 in a user-friendly way, from a menu of servers and their printers? Or do you have to waste hours reading the manual and struggling with cryptic configuration files? When you want to reconfigure, do you have to exit Windows and change the cryptic configuration files again? Do you have to chose options that make no sense, like the OS2 option when you are in Windows? Can you query the printer queue status from a Windows menu? Remove print jobs from a Windows menu?? Are telnet and ftp windows applications, or do they just run in a DOS shell? What does Windows compatible mean? Not much, apparently. Is Sun too stupid to do it right? I don't believe it. Does Sun not know what customers want? That's possible. It appears that no one involved in Sun PC-NFS has ever sat down in front of a PC running Novell and had the user-friendliness of real Windows networking demonstrated to them. It's better than the third alternative: that they don't care what the customers want. "They're just brain dead PC users and don't know how to do things." "Windows is just a passing fad and we're not going to put resources into supporting it." "PC networks like Novell are beneath us to study." You know Sun PC-NFS is not a real PC network when you configure Windows. For "network", you put "none" when using Sun PC-NFS. If the network is the computer, then Sun PC-NFS is a user-hostile computer. I have never had to open a Novell manual and I can do so much more than I could with PC-NFS even after wasting weeks studying the manuals and experimenting with countless cryptic options. At my company, Sun PC-NFS is (currently) the supported option yet none of the people in my group who use Sun PC-NFS can even print from Windows and all of the people who use Novell have no trouble printing from Windows. I'm sure glad I don't have to use Sun PC-NFS anymore. Sun's focus may be growing (now that's a mixed metaphor! I guess growing commitment was too boring.), but I don't consider it satisfactory yet. (I don't speak for the company, obviously, since they're still trying to push it down my throat, this is only my personal opinion, developed after many months of experience.) -- The government is not your mother. The government doesn't love you.
KWCMC@ASUACAD.BITNET (Colleen Carmean) (03/13/91)
From: Colleen Carmean
ASU WEST - IRT 2807
543-8271phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) (03/14/91)
In article <KV56962.91Mar12193559@kaarne.tut.fi> kv56962@tut.fi (V{{r{nen Kari) writes: |would, however, like to know what advantages there are in Novell and |other 'pure' PC networking softwares compared to PC-NFS. Just out of You can print to an HP Laserjet IIIsi over the Ethernet directly, something Sun PC-NFS could never do, since the LJIIISi talks Novell. The IIISi has a faster print engine (17 PPM), a RISC processor, and a direct Ethernet connection. A beta site said they found some jobs printed 75 times as fast as a LJ II. See the current PC Week. You can also print to the Intel Netport devices. Again, they speak Novell only. Doesn't Sun talk about being standards based? Novell is THE standard in PC networks. With regard to Windows, a real PC network lets you inspect the print queues, pause, resume, and delete jobs FROM A MENU. You can configure the printers, select servers, and server queues FROM A MENU. A crippled network like PC-NFS requires you to manipulate configuration files so cryptic most users never figure it out. User-hostile. PC-NFS requires you to choose a name for your machine. One user chose the name of our server. He wasn't malicious, just confused. He crashed the server. Now, the unix bigots will say "stupid user". That attitude is a big part of the problem. But I don't know if it is possible to make the unix bigots realize that. Most unix bigots would never believe this kind of problem could be solved, should be solved, and would not try. -- The government is not your mother. The government doesn't love you.
cadsi@ccad.uiowa.edu (CADSI) (03/14/91)
From article <1991Mar13.180625.14540@amd.com>, by phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai): > > You can print to an HP Laserjet IIIsi over the Ethernet directly, > something Sun PC-NFS could never do, since the LJIIISi talks Novell. ... > You can also print to the Intel Netport devices. Again, they speak > Novell only. Hmmm... I wonder if we could find a solution??? If you set a port as raw on the UNIX side, would this printer then work??? I have printed to other binary devices, maybe... > With regard to Windows, a real PC network lets you inspect the > print queues, pause, resume, and delete jobs FROM A MENU. You can > configure the printers, select servers, and server queues > FROM A MENU. A crippled network like PC-NFS requires you to > manipulate configuration files so cryptic most users never figure > it out. User-hostile. Actually PC-NFS has a menu driven interface to manage these files. > > PC-NFS requires you to choose a name for your machine. One user > chose the name of our server. He wasn't malicious, just confused. > He crashed the server. Hmmmm... could this have been an old PC-NFS version. I had three machines called the same thing for a time when we screwed up. The SGI server never crashed, but PC-NFS did complain a lot about breaking laws of licensing and whatnot on the PC screens across the network. Tom Hite |----------------------------------------------------------------------------| |Tom Hite | The views expressed by me | |Manager, Product development | are mine, not necessarily | |CADSI (Computer Aided Design Software Inc. | the views of CADSI. | |----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) (03/14/91)
In article <1991Mar13.192701.21148@ccad.uiowa.edu> cadsi@ccad.uiowa.edu (CADSI) writes: |> You can print to an HP Laserjet IIIsi over the Ethernet directly, |> something Sun PC-NFS could never do, since the LJIIISi talks Novell. |... |> You can also print to the Intel Netport devices. Again, they speak |> Novell only. | |Hmmm... I wonder if we could find a solution??? If you set a port |as raw on the UNIX side, would this printer then work??? I have printed |to other binary devices, maybe... You don't understand. These devices talk Novell. No TCP/IP at all. Setting raw is something you do with RS-232, I believe. Which you can do with the LJIIIsi (but not the Intel Inport), but then instead of 10,000,000 bits per second, you're down to 9,600 bits per second. And only the physically attached host can control it. If the host goes down or runs out of spool space or some bozo fires up a zillion NFS copies and makes the host go catatonic, too bad. With the LJ IIIsi, any Novell node can use it as long as the Ethernet cable isn't shorted out or something drastic like that. A big improvement in reliability. |Actually PC-NFS has a menu driven interface to manage these files. But not a Windows menu. And it won't give you a choice of servers and printers to use, you have to know their names already. Another example of not being user friendly. |> PC-NFS requires you to choose a name for your machine. One user |> chose the name of our server. He wasn't malicious, just confused. |> He crashed the server. | |Hmmmm... could this have been an old PC-NFS version. I had three machines |called the same thing for a time when we screwed up. The SGI server |never crashed, but PC-NFS did complain a lot about breaking laws of |licensing and whatnot on the PC screens across the network. This happened pretty recently. -- The government is not your mother. The government doesn't love you.
kjv@kapakala.tampella.fi (V{{r{nen Kari) (03/14/91)
> You can print to an HP Laserjet IIIsi over the Ethernet directly, Well, that is obvious. PC-NFS (or UNIX) can't print to a network laser that doesn't talk TCP/IP. At least, if there is not a Novell-talking driver installed on the PC-NFS -server.. I suppose there isn't such a beast available yet... :-) > The IIISi has a faster print engine (17 PPM), a RISC processor, I would, myself, prefer the QMS ImageServer, which is a 20 ppm, TCP/IP speaking postscript laser... (And costs like hell too. :-) > You can also print to the Intel Netport devices. Again, they speak > Novell only. We are using 3Com's TCP/IP speaking terminal servers as well as DECservers by Digital. We have several lasers (Canon, HP, QMS) attached to them and it all works well... We have about 150 PCs in our PC-NFS network. We have about 40 lasers. We have a Sun 4/370 working as a PC-NFS server (its mainly a NFS-server for our Sun and DEC workstations but it handles those PCs too). We have now 1.1 GB diskspace as a network disk for PCs (btw this disk is backup'd *every* night!!!) and we are planning to buy another 2.5 GB disk for this purpose... Tampella Group's one other subsidiary has about 200 PCs networked with PC-NFS etc. The point is that we have a not-too-small system here. Every one of our users must be able to use our bigger systems running in our VAXen and Suns. I am *not* convinced that we could do as much with a 'pure' PC-network like Novell. At least, not yet.. :-) (Btw, when I say 'pure' PC-network I mean networks which have PCs as servers.) > PC-NFS requires you to choose a name for your machine. One user > chose the name of our server. He wasn't malicious, just confused. > He crashed the server. That's funny. Nodes in TCP/IP networking are identified with IP-number. If you don't generate unique numbers, you ask for trouble... The name is important only in email and in allowing mounts or lpr-usage for a node. The name can be different from PCs point of view and PC-NFS servers point of view. The PC-NFS server has to be configured by someone, who knows what he/she does. It's not everyones job. And I really don't think it should be either.. :-) We have a PC-manager who installs all our PCs. So, we haven't had to care about ignorant users too much. > Now, the unix bigots will say "stupid user". That attitude is > a big part of the problem. But I don't know if it is possible > to make the unix bigots realize that. Most unix bigots would > never believe this kind of problem could be solved, should > be solved, and would not try. Are you suggesting that Novell is *so* easy that even the most ignorant users can set up the whole network and manage it properly? If that's true, I've got to start thinking differently about PC-NFS and other PC-networks. Yours, Kari Vaaranen -- Kari Vaaranen * (So long, and thanks for all the fish!) Tampella Papertech Oy * email INTERNET : kjv@tampella.fi P.O.BOX 267, SF-33101 * Phone internat. : +358 31 2412434 Tampere, FINLAND * Telefax internat.: +358 31 115440
hassler@logdis1.hq.aflc.af.mil (Barry D. Hassler) (03/15/91)
In article <1991Mar13.180625.14540@amd.com> phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) writes: >In article <KV56962.91Mar12193559@kaarne.tut.fi> kv56962@tut.fi (V{{r{nen Kari) writes: ... >something Sun PC-NFS could never do, since the LJIIISi talks Novell. ... >You can also print to the Intel Netport devices. Again, they speak >Novell only. > >Doesn't Sun talk about being standards based? Novell is THE standard >in PC networks. I must object to this. Simply because a product is widely available does NOT make it a standard. Standards imply widely accessible, public specifications The above products you mention, while extremely attractive, are not viable options in environments where open competition and interoperability are required. > >With regard to Windows, a real PC network lets you inspect the >print queues, pause, resume, and delete jobs FROM A MENU. You can >configure the printers, select servers, and server queues >FROM A MENU. A crippled network like PC-NFS requires you to A "network" allows you to do non of the above. It is the implementation of software ABOVE the network which provides these capabilities. See the axiom about "solving problems at the right level - then you only have to solve them once". Neither Novell "network" or PCNFS "network" provide the above capabilities. Again, it is the implementation of software utilizing those network services. ... > >Now, the unix bigots will say "stupid user". That attitude is >a big part of the problem. But I don't know if it is possible >to make the unix bigots realize that. Most unix bigots would >never believe this kind of problem could be solved, should >be solved, and would not try. I'm a "UNIX bigot" I suppose, but I won't say stupid user. From your point of view (assuming you are a "user", and not a systems-type), the entire issue *is* part of the network, as it should be. The reality of the situation though is that they are completely separate. Your "system experts" should be providing this type of information to you and helping to ensure that you have the right set of tools to satisfy your needs. One of the nice things about NFS, is that it ISN'T limited to Unix (and neither is Novell limited to PCs). NFS is available on just about any platform you can name. Novell also works with UNIX, but as someone else pointed out, its usefullness on that platform may be questionable (I haven't used it myself on UNIX, so I can't say personally). IT MAY BE TRUE that PCNFS does not satisfy your needs, but that isn't a reflection upon PCNFS itself, but instead on those companies that have chosen to implement it. By the way, I have no vested interest in NFS. I do have an interest in assuring my clients are provided the best solution to their requirements. ------- Barry D. Hassler hassler@logdis1.hq.aflc.af.mil Networking and Systems Consultant (513) 257-4499 (WPAFB) Control Data Corporation DSN 787-4499 Integrated Information Systems "It is better to be blind than to be able to see but have no vision." - Helen Keller
aronb@gkcl.ists.ca (Aron Burns) (03/15/91)
In article <1991Mar13.180625.14540@amd.com> phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) writes: >In article <KV56962.91Mar12193559@kaarne.tut.fi> kv56962@tut.fi (V{{r{nen Kari) writes: >|would, however, like to know what advantages there are in Novell and >|other 'pure' PC networking softwares compared to PC-NFS. Just out of > >You can print to an HP Laserjet IIIsi over the Ethernet directly, >something Sun PC-NFS could never do, since the LJIIISi talks Novell. > At recent presentation, an HP rep indicated that the IIIsi would talk IP shortly. It's a great concept, as you bypass the spooler on the file server. I don't know how it would work with PC-NFS (probably not, until PC-NFS was changed to send output to an IP address directly). [...] >Doesn't Sun talk about being standards based? Novell is THE standard >in PC networks. Show us the RFC :-) >configure the printers, select servers, and server queues >FROM A MENU. A crippled network like PC-NFS requires you to >manipulate configuration files so cryptic most users never figure Not at all. Run NFSCONF. It changes the configuration files FROM A MENU and has pretty colours as an added bonus. >PC-NFS requires you to choose a name for your machine. One user >chose the name of our server. He wasn't malicious, just confused. >He crashed the server. so who let him configure his own machine? Who could expect a user to understand an IP address and pick a machine name? You do this once on initial install. >Now, the unix bigots will say "stupid user". That attitude is >a big part of the problem. But I don't know if it is possible >to make the unix bigots realize that. Most unix bigots would >never believe this kind of problem could be solved, should >be solved, and would not try. See my last paragraph. I don't think the user was stupid. >The government is not your mother. >The government doesn't love you. This we agree on. Aaron Burns "Nothing I say on the net is binding aronb@gkcl.ists.ca to our corporation" Toronto, Ontario "Life is a forge, and the purest metal (416)392-4310 comes from the hottest fire"
etxsral@california.ericsson.se (Lars Nilsson) (03/15/91)
Here is my opinion about PC-NFS versus Novell: PC-NFS,PC-TCP etc is not meant to be a full-blown PC-network. PC-NFS is a way to use PC's towards an Unix-network. PC-NFS and PC-TCP is configured in a more unix-like way this makes it easier for the Unix-system managers to configure the PC's If you want a PC -- PC network then buy a PC-lan as Novell. If you want a PC -- UNIX network then buy PC-nfs or similar(I like PC-TCP). /Lars Nilsson -- Lars Nilsson Ericsson Telecom AB , Stockholm - Sweden E-mail: etxsral@california.ericsson.se Fidonet: Lars Nilsson @ 2:201/108.7
jmorriso@twix.ee.ubc.ca (John Paul Morrison) (03/15/91)
In article <1991Mar13.180625.14540@amd.com> phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) writes: >In article <KV56962.91Mar12193559@kaarne.tut.fi> kv56962@tut.fi (V{{r{nen Kari) writes: >You can print to an HP Laserjet IIIsi over the Ethernet directly, >something Sun PC-NFS could never do, since the LJIIISi talks Novell. > >You can also print to the Intel Netport devices. Again, they speak >Novell only. > I'd really like to see this. What on earth do you mean by speaking NOvell? Novell is software. It uses certain hardware standards to shuffle files around. Why do you say an HP printer only supports ONE network, when there are at least half a dozen PC networks out in PC land?? >Doesn't Sun talk about being standards based? Novell is THE standard >in PC networks. > Correction: THE standard in _IBM COMPPATIBLE_ Networks. I really don't think many MAC or other users have any higher opinion of Novell than they do of NFS, >With regard to Windows, a real PC network lets you inspect the >print queues, pause, resume, and delete jobs FROM A MENU. You can >configure the printers, select servers, and server queues >FROM A MENU. A crippled network like PC-NFS requires you to >manipulate configuration files so cryptic most users never figure >it out. User-hostile. I agree that NFS should live up to the hopes and desires of most Windows users. As for crippled, I really beg to differ! I can speak from the (relatively) unique position of having used IBM PC's and Sun workstations almost equally. Since we are at a poor humble university, we don't have fancy word-processors and spreadsheets. What we get has been site-licensed to us. So I find myself whith a strong dislike of: vi, troff, emacs, TeX, etc. So called "hacker friendly" software. On the other hand, what we do get would be ridiculous on a PC. Things like Maple 5, or MAthematica. Basically anything that needs a STABLE network with REAL multitasking and REAL virtual memory. It's funny to observe Unix hacks who think that anything non-unix is a toy (although they are often right). It's funny to observe PC hacks who think they know evrything and that they are "gurus". These are people with 20 000 "utility" programs cluttering their disks to compensate for what MS-DOS can't handle! It all ends up being what you use your macine for, and how you wan't to do it. I'll give Windows infinitely more credit than MIT X windows for being an easy, consistent, and fairly well thought out interface. (MIT X has never heard of printers. EVery program just figures out how to print any old way). Although a NeXT with X features would be something amazing. It seems like certain PC users are incredibly bitter about Unix people, which I could understand if it were DEC, or IBM they were bitter about. But here this leads me to believe they have never used Unix. At best their experience has been an inconvenience with non-WYSIWIG ways of doing things. Basically cosmetic, which is NOT to say trivial: Unix could use a really slick, coherent face-lift. But I'll give unix the upper hand for most things anyway, because MS-DOS is not an operating system; it is a glorified program loader, one step better than a ROM bootstrap loader. In two years of heavy Sun use, and light PC use, I HAVE NEVER LOST A FILE on a Sun network (that I didn't nuke myself), whereas I have lost and corrupted more files on IBMs.(we have around 2-3 Giga bytes of disk space shared by about 100 users, on distributed servers, and on not one but TWO radically different computer architectures. Try THAT on Novell!!!)
phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) (03/15/91)
In article <KJV.91Mar14122529@kapakala.tampella.fi> kjv@kapakala.tampella.fi (V{{r{nen Kari) writes: | |> You can print to an HP Laserjet IIIsi over the Ethernet directly, | |Well, that is obvious. PC-NFS (or UNIX) can't print to a network laser |that doesn't talk TCP/IP. At least, if there is not a Novell-talking |driver installed on the PC-NFS -server.. I suppose there isn't such a |beast available yet... :-) Actually, there is. You can get Portable Netware to run on Unix machines. I include this example to show you that Novell is considered to be a more important Ethernet protocol than TCP/IP by HP. And you probably know how important HP is in the laser printer market. HP has a pretty good idea of what they are doing. |> The IIISi has a faster print engine (17 PPM), a RISC processor, | |I would, myself, prefer the QMS ImageServer, which is a 20 ppm, TCP/IP |speaking postscript laser... (And costs like hell too. :-) The IIIsi is less than $6,000 list price. |The point is that we have a not-too-small system here. Every one of |our users must be able to use our bigger systems running in our VAXen |and Suns. I am *not* convinced that we could do as much with a 'pure' |PC-network like Novell. At least, not yet.. :-) (Btw, when I say I'm not saying Novell is for everyone. And that PC-NFS has no value. I am saying PC-NFS could learn a lot about how to fit into a PC environment from Novell. |> PC-NFS requires you to choose a name for your machine. One user |> chose the name of our server. He wasn't malicious, just confused. |> He crashed the server. | |That's funny. Nodes in TCP/IP networking are identified with |IP-number. If you don't generate unique numbers, you ask for This is the point. Unix people can't even imagine that this problem might not exist in other systems. |Are you suggesting that Novell is *so* easy that even the most |ignorant users can set up the whole network and manage it properly? If I'm saying installing Novell on a client is much easier than PC-NFS. The server does require more attention, but Suns are not something the most ignorant user can run either. -- The government is not your mother. The government doesn't love you.
phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) (03/16/91)
In article <20171@ists.ists.ca> aronb@gkcl.UUCP (Aron Burns) writes: |>You can print to an HP Laserjet IIIsi over the Ethernet directly, |>something Sun PC-NFS could never do, since the LJIIISi talks Novell. | |At recent presentation, an HP rep indicated that |the IIIsi would talk IP shortly. It's a great concept, as But Novell is first. As you imply, to use TCP/IP with PC-NFS will require double traffic. |>configure the printers, select servers, and server queues |>FROM A MENU. A crippled network like PC-NFS requires you to |>manipulate configuration files so cryptic most users never figure | |Not at all. Run NFSCONF. It changes the configuration files FROM A MENU |and has pretty colours as an added bonus. Sorry, I was talking about Windows and meant Windows menus, not some Sun menu (which you have to run from DOS). |so who let him configure his own machine? Who could expect a user |to understand an IP address and pick a machine name? You do this |once on initial install. And you're missing the point. Unix bigots only know how it is done in Unix and can't imagine other systems having an easier way to do something. In Novell, you don't have to mess with IP addresses or machine names (or Novell addresses). You choose servers (when you want to change) from a menu of available servers. -- The government is not your mother. The government doesn't love you.
phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) (03/16/91)
In article <1991Mar14.194005.19662@ericsson.se> etxsral@california.ericsson.se (Lars Nilsson) writes: |Here is my opinion about PC-NFS versus Novell: | |PC-NFS,PC-TCP etc is not meant to be a full-blown PC-network. That's what I've been trying to say. Sun PC-NFS is NO NETWORK in the PC world. |PC-NFS and PC-TCP is configured in a more unix-like way this |makes it easier for the Unix-system managers to configure |the PC's Yeah, who cares about the users? -- The government is not your mother. The government doesn't love you.
phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) (03/16/91)
In article <1541@fs1.ee.ubc.ca> jmorriso@twix.ee.ubc.ca (John Paul Morrison) writes: |I'd really like to see this. What on earth do you mean by speaking NOvell? A PC running Novell can send a print job to the LJIIIsi directly over the Ethernet. |Why do you say an HP printer only supports ONE network, when |there are at least half a dozen PC networks out in PC land?? I say it because that is what HP has done, implemented a Novell speaking laser printer. |I agree that NFS should live up to the hopes and desires of most |Windows users. As for crippled, I really beg to differ! |I can speak from the (relatively) unique position of having used IBM PC's |and Sun workstations almost equally. But have you used Microsoft Windows and Novell? |On the other hand, what we do get would be ridiculous on a PC. Things like |Maple 5, or MAthematica. Basically anything that needs a STABLE network with |REAL multitasking and REAL virtual memory. I'm not familiar with Maple, but I believe Mathematica does run on 386 PCs. MS Windows on a 386 is a pretty good multitasking system and does offer VM. |It's funny to observe Unix hacks who think that anything non-unix is a toy |(although they are often right). |It's funny to observe PC hacks who think they know evrything and that they |are "gurus". These are people with 20 000 "utility" programs cluttering |their disks to compensate for what MS-DOS can't handle! For your information, I've been using Unix for much longer than PCs. I bought, setup, and ran some of my company's first VAXEN. I started with a PDP-11/70 running V7. That was before fsck, I think, so I did filesystem repairs the hard way. Then we got money for a 750 so I installed and ran a 4.2 BSD system. What a big improvement. I've only been using PCs for about 3 years. You're right, I do have a number of utilities on my PC to make it more Unix like when I'm in DOS. Things like "ls", "rm", "mv", etc. I still think Sun PC-NFS is a lousy excuse for a PC network. |It seems like certain PC users are incredibly bitter about Unix people, |which I could understand if it were DEC, or IBM they were bitter about. |But here this leads me to believe they have never used Unix. See above. |But I'll give unix the upper hand for most things anyway, because MS-DOS |is not an operating system; it is a glorified program loader, one step |better than a ROM bootstrap loader. In two years of heavy Sun use, and light I could disagree, but you are getting distracted. My point is this: Sun PC-NFS is NO NETWORK to Microsoft Windows. -- The government is not your mother. The government doesn't love you.
donp@na.excelan.com (don provan) (03/16/91)
The News Manager) Nntp-Posting-Host: na Reply-To: donp@novell.com (don provan) Organization: Novell, Inc., San Jose, California References: <1991Mar13.180625.14540@amd.com> <KJV.91Mar14122529@kapakala.tampella.fi> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1991 17:18:45 GMT In article <KJV.91Mar14122529@kapakala.tampella.fi> kjv@kapakala.tampella.fi (V{{r{nen Kari) writes: >In article <1991Mar13.180625.14540@amd.com> phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) writes: >> Now, the unix bigots will say "stupid user". That attitude is >> a big part of the problem. But I don't know if it is possible >> to make the unix bigots realize that.... > >Are you suggesting that Novell is *so* easy that even the most >ignorant users can set up the whole network and manage it properly? While i won't claim that *anyone* could set up an large NetWare network, i will claim that that's a good goal. Phil's point, i think, is that "unix bigots" believe there are two kinds of people: those smart enough to set up networks and "ignorant users". In contrast, in the NetWare world, everyone's an "ignorant user", it's just that some of them have read the manuals and have to answer everyone else's questions. :-) That makes ease of use the overriding consideration for NetWare while it's not that important for UNIX. >If that's true, I've got to start thinking differently about PC-NFS >and other PC-networks. Good idea. Here's something to start with: my car mechanic has a NetWare network in his shop. don provan donp@novell.com
cadsi@ccad.uiowa.edu (CADSI) (03/17/91)
From article <1991Mar16.015158.20566@amd.com>, by phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai): > I'm not familiar with Maple, but I believe Mathematica does run on 386 PCs. It does (Mathematica). > MS Windows on a 386 is a pretty good multitasking system and does offer VM. Especially if you like UAE's. I'm not quite ready to call it pretty good. But it does work anyway. > > I still think Sun PC-NFS is a lousy excuse for a PC network. I think we have it here. PC-NFS is probably NOT a PC network. Its just a network. > > Sun PC-NFS is NO NETWORK to Microsoft Windows. > Except for file sharing, print sharing. I must admin, I hate leaving Windows just to run the 'net' program(s). I think its getting close to the point where we are wasting too buch bandwidth here. I close my comments here: Novell: fantastic - I've used it and seen it. Windows: knows about it and works well with it. PC-NFS: pretty darn good at what it does. Windows: doesn't really know about it, but it works anyway. (I won't call this NO NETWORK, better yet, SOME OTHER NETWORK, no extra disks required). |----------------------------------------------------------------------------| |Tom Hite | The views expressed by me | |Manager, Product development | are mine, not necessarily | |CADSI (Computer Aided Design Software Inc. | the views of CADSI. | |----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
rasmus@napc.uucp (Rasmus Lerdorf) (03/18/91)
In <1991Mar16.015158.20566@amd.com> phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) writes: >I could disagree, but you are getting distracted. My point is this: >Sun PC-NFS is NO NETWORK to Microsoft Windows. And Novell is NO NETWORK to my Unix boxex boxes running TCP/IP. What's the fuss? Novell and PC/NFS are geared towards different environments. Right now I am running both. I wish there was one package that did it all, but there isn't, so one must live with the deficiencies of both in order to gain the benefits of both. -- Rasmus Lerdorf calgary!ajfcal!napc!rasmus 1020-64 Ave NE, Calgary NovAtel Advanced Product Concept Development Alberta, Canada T2E 7V8
erick@sunee.waterloo.edu (Erick Engelke) (03/18/91)
someone wrote: >|On the other hand, what we do get would be ridiculous on a PC. Things like >|Maple 5, or MAthematica. Basically anything that needs a STABLE network with >|REAL multitasking and REAL virtual memory. Sorry, but MAPLE 5 runs very well on MS-DOS computers. In fact, it ran my programs about 6 times as fast as our Microvax 2000's and of course much faster than our 11/785s. BUT, more importantly, running multiple maple sessions makes the unix box slow down linearly. Not so with networked PCs. Erick -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Erick Engelke Watstar Computer Network Watstar Network Guy University of Waterloo Erick@Development.Watstar.UWaterloo.ca (519) 885-1211 Ext. 2965
phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) (03/19/91)
In article <1991Mar18.012523.4241@napc.uucp> rasmus@napc.uucp (Rasmus Lerdorf) writes: |I wish there was one package |that did it all, but there isn't, so one must live with the deficiencies |of both in order to gain the benefits of both. Have you considered complaining to Sun. Or would you prefer to curse the darkness? :-) Join me in writing letters to PC Week and Network World. Or, you could run Portable Netware on your Unix box... -- The Macintosh makes it easy to do sloppy work.
bert@iiasa.ac.at (Bert WRIGHT ) (03/20/91)
I have used Novell, and for being limited to a PC Network it is great. Those who write my paycheck currently would find Novell's approach a little limiting. We are connecting PCs to a UNIX network, not the other way around. Using PC/NFS has been a great advantage for us. I use a PC on my desk, use PC software because I find it gives me more productivity. But I also need and use many of the programs found on our UNIX network. The comparison of the two is like Apples and Oranges, they are both fruits. I am also using Windows 3.0, it works. It took a little while longer then it should have to get it to work. I am looking forward to the new release. The real question I have is how to we, the users of PC/NFS get people like Aston-Tate, MicroSoft, etc to support our network also. Currently we have a need to run dBASE IV on the network. It is not supported, how do we convince them that support is needed? -- Bert E. Wright, Head, Computer Operations and Services International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis Schloss Laxenburg, Schlossplatz 1, A - 2361 Laxenburg, Austria, Europe Phone: [43] (2236) 71521-212 / UUCP: uunet!mcvax!tuvie!iiasa!bert
jdeitch@jadpc.cts.com (Jim Deitch) (03/21/91)
In article <1991Mar14.194005.19662@ericsson.se> etxsral@california.ericsson.se (Lars Nilsson) writes: >Here is my opinion about PC-NFS versus Novell: > >PC-NFS,PC-TCP etc is not meant to be a full-blown PC-network. > >PC-NFS is a way to use PC's towards an Unix-network. > >PC-NFS and PC-TCP is configured in a more unix-like way this >makes it easier for the Unix-system managers to configure >the PC's > >If you want a PC -- PC network then buy a PC-lan as Novell. >If you want a PC -- UNIX network then buy PC-nfs or similar(I like PC-TCP). > >/Lars Nilsson > >-- >Lars Nilsson >Ericsson Telecom AB , Stockholm - Sweden >E-mail: etxsral@california.ericsson.se >Fidonet: Lars Nilsson @ 2:201/108.7 I am sorry if I am junmping in in the middle of this, but I have been reading the last 10-15 messages or so, and it seems to me that some of you like Novell, and some prefer NFS. I was at a product presentation the other day, and was suprised when Novell told me that they will support NFS in the new release, 3.11. Seems that they are recognizing the NFS people out there and want to make them be able to talk to a Novell server also. The technical guy I cornered didn't have a whole lot he could tell me, because he had just started with Nolvell 3 months ago, and had only briefly played with the nfs stuff. Supposedly the way it is going to work is that a Novell server will be able to mount a NFS structure and a NFS host can mount a Novell server. All of this will ride on top of the Novell tcp/ip that will be available in the 3.11. Maybe we can get the best of both worlds finally? As an aside, can anyone help me with getting PC-NFS to work with packet drivers. I have all the stuff I need (I think) I just need to know the load order for the modules and any hidden gottchas. My documentation got lost and so am I. Thanks, Jim P.S. Please respond by email to: jadpc!jdeitch@trout.nosc.mil -- ARPANET: jadpc!jdeitch@nosc.mil INTERNET: jdeitch@jadpc.cts.com UUCP: nosc!jadpc!jdeitch
phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) (03/22/91)
In article <1033@iiasa.UUCP> bert%iiasa@relay.eu.net (Bert WRIGHT ) writes: |The real question I have is how to we, the users of PC/NFS get people |like Aston-Tate, MicroSoft, etc to support our network also. Currently |we have a need to run dBASE IV on the network. It is not supported, how |do we convince them that support is needed? Don't you think you'd get a lot more mileage out of Sun supporting Novell style API? -- Help! I just got a Macintosh. Anyone got a magnifying glass?
sob@tmc.edu (Stan Barber) (03/23/91)
In article <1991Mar21.183848.4783@amd.com> phil@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) writes: >Don't you think you'd get a lot more mileage out of Sun supporting >Novell style API? Didn't I just read that the new release of NETWARE (3.11) supports the NetWISE RPC interface? As I recall the NetWISE RPC interface is a superset of the Sun RPC interface. I know the two are related. Seems that the Novell API is becoming more like the Sun API. If that is true, why bother learning the OLD Novell API? -- Stan internet: sob@bcm.tmc.edu Director, Networking Olan uucp: {rutgers,mailrus}!bcm!sob and Systems Support Barber Opinions expressed are only mine. Baylor College of Medicine